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#1863311 - 03/16/12 06:38 PM What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me"
Jazz+ Offline
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Here's a little quiz. What scales would you chose for each chord of "All Of Me" . I find all of my students and many professionals do not really realize what the most ideal scale type is for each chord in "All Of Me" :

| C maj7 | Cmaj7 | "E7" | "E7"|
| "A7" | "A7" | D-7 | D-7 |
| "E7" | "E7" | A-7 | A-7 |
| "D7" | "D7" | D-7 | "G7" |

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#1863365 - 03/16/12 08:22 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
RUSS SHETTLE Online   content
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I don't get it? What are they?
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#1863539 - 03/17/12 07:50 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
beeboss Offline
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Chromatic scale works equally well on all chords;-)

Seriously though I don't think there can be such a think as an 'ideal scale type', the scale choice is determined by factors like what extensions you include in the chord and how much tension you want to add, and many others.
I would be interested why you think many professionals are wrong about their scale choice though.
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#1863610 - 03/17/12 11:02 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
jjo Offline
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Strange question. All of Me is a fun piece to play becuase it has a relatively simple progression, but with lots of dominant chords. I can't think of a scale that you couldn't use.

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#1863612 - 03/17/12 11:03 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
TromboneAl Offline
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Loc: Northern, Northern California
I'm either unhip or I just like to keep it simple, but I tend to use:

C: C major scale
E7: A major scale
A7: D major scale
Dm7: C major scale
Am7: G major scale

Of course I use tension notes, neighbor tones, etc, but I like the simple approach above.
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#1863640 - 03/17/12 12:14 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
knotty Offline
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what you need is a hip replacement

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#1863710 - 03/17/12 02:30 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Olly Wedgwood Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 50
Loc: UK - London
I agree with beeboss - there is never a one-size-fits-all killer scale for jazz standards such as All of Me... However, there are useful 'framework' scales and arpeggios to understand, depending on the chord.

For example, the first chord of C (perhaps even C6)... a pentatonic scale framework could work well here with a couple of blues notes thrown in here and there.

But of course, that passes pretty quickly and you're then on to the E7, which you could consider an arpeggio of E7 with perhaps a flattened 9th F... which leads nicely on to the Am7...

Hope that helps a bit!
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#1863736 - 03/17/12 03:20 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
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Interesting, nobody seems to get it. Use your ears and study the masters, they are not playing simple unaltered Mixolydian scales on E7 and A7 .

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#1863762 - 03/17/12 04:23 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
beeboss Offline
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Posts: 1198
Loc: uk south
If you are playing b9 extensions for example then regular mixolydian is not going to sound so good.

If you think by key then A harmonic minor is the closest scale for the E7 chord - like a C major scale but with the G sharpened to fit the 3rd of the chord. You could follow this same approach through the other chords but there is no reason why an altered scale wouldn't work just as well over the E7 imo, F melodic minor ascending or E diminished (1/2,1). These will all work well depending on the context.
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#1863773 - 03/17/12 04:41 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Ed Zuccollo Offline
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Registered: 03/16/12
Posts: 19
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Interesting, nobody seems to get it. Use your ears and study the masters, they are not playing simple unaltered Mixolydian scales on E7 and A7 .


I think people do get it though. What they're saying is that there is a choice. You could use a super-locrian scale on the A7 but you could also go old-school and use a straight mixolydian. Or you could mix it up a bit. I think it's great to learn a bunch of scales, practice with them all individually until they become part of your playing, and then eventually forget them and pick the notes you want to hear. Then if you hear a recording of someone playing a certain sound and you like it, most probably you will be able to go to the piano and replicate it. I mean, it takes a long long time but that's ideal for me - rather than your 'correct answer'. It's a matter of taste.

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#1863908 - 03/17/12 09:55 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 629
Loc: Chicago
For those that are curious, here's a transcription of a Sarah Vaughn solo: http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/jazz/Transcriptions/ALL%20of%20Me%20SARAH.pdf

Looks like pretty standard scales to me, albiet with quite a few enclosures and chromatic passing tones.

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#1863909 - 03/17/12 09:57 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 629
Loc: Chicago
For those that are curious, here's a transcription of a Sarah Vaughn solo: http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/jazz/Transcriptions/ALL%20of%20Me%20SARAH.pdf

Looks like pretty traditional scales, albiet with a nice use of enclosures and chromatic passing tones.

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#1863924 - 03/17/12 11:01 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
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Loc: Banned
Old timer Lester Young using altered scales on E7 and A7. It's such an obviously better choice than awkward sounding mixolydian. The mixolydian on E7 and A7 sound so "out of key" for a tune in C, where as the altered scales sound at home in the key of C on E7 and A7 because they are much closer to the key of C !
http://www.scribd.com/doc/55169612/Lester-Young-All-Of-Me-Sax-Solo

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#1863931 - 03/17/12 11:27 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
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"Hippest" as in what would Herbie Hancock play on the E7 A7 changes as compared to what the Lawrence Welk band would play. I have heard Herbioe play All Of Me and he played an alt every time.

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#1863943 - 03/18/12 12:10 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Ilion Offline
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Posts: 27
Loc: United States
imho, the improviser who plays the most interesting music over ANY changes is he who plays good melodies. I don't understand why people get so wrapped up in scales. If you know them all then your ear will provide you with good melodic material. Chet Baker could play great bop and then play totally diatonic, but he was a master at melody and phrasing.

You can play C major over the entire form of All of Me and it will work extensions, alterations, and all. If you develop the ideas, use good phrasing and time, it's a great solo.

No need to claim any one approach is superior. Again, my opinion, and I may be in the minority haha.

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#1863952 - 03/18/12 12:54 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Ilion]
Ed Zuccollo Offline
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Registered: 03/16/12
Posts: 19
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
I agree ilion. Singable solos are awesome. Simple stuff with good time and phrasing bangs it. I think it's easier and quicker to get stuck into strange scales than it is to gain the other stuff like time and phrasing, solo structure, and melodic interesting development. That stuff takes a long time and a lot of playing and listening.

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#1864032 - 03/18/12 08:51 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1195
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Here's a little quiz. What scales would you chose for each chord of "All Of Me" .


And I guess it's a trick answer? None. I wouldn't be thinking "chord = scale". That's a teaching method that allows inexperienced students to come up with a passable imitation of a jazz solo. It's great for educators because it's testable - much easier to grade a student on "are you fluent in F# mixolydian" than on "was that a good melodic solo?". But it's not a very good way to make good music.

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#1864047 - 03/18/12 09:33 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Exalted Wombat]
beeboss Offline
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Posts: 1198
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat

But it's not a very good way to make good music.



Every note has a relationship to the chord being played, to the melody, to the notes everyone else is playing - chord/scale theory is one way to think about these relationships. Obviously if somebody just uses chord/scale theory to choose what notes to play that is not going to work very well, but on the other hand we cannot make good music by ignoring the relationships either.
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#1864117 - 03/18/12 12:01 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
It's only a matter of time before the thread becomes a scale vs chord vs ear debate. There's a good chapter on metaphors for the musician about that.

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#1864131 - 03/18/12 12:20 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
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Registered: 08/07/04
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Loc: Banned
Same old arguments to avoid simply answering the question...

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#1864162 - 03/18/12 01:14 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Steve Nixon Offline
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Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 216
Loc: Chicago
I think it depends on what a player wants to sound like.

For me it all starts w/ bebop. Bebop is sort of the basic and most fundamental vocabulary of jazz.

So, if a player want to sound more like a bebop player they won't be thinking scales as much as they will be thinking chords. Chord tone placement in relation to strong beats are everything.

Now, not every note is an arpeggio/chord tone note. Mixed in w/ the chord tones are chromatic and diatonic enclosures of chord tones and sometimes passing scale notes. It all revolves around chords though smile

Some people would say, well scales and chords are the same thing and I agree in theory. The approach and thought process behind the lines you come up with though are different.


Just my 1.3 cents.....


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#1864217 - 03/18/12 03:20 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 629
Loc: Chicago
Someone help me. I've looked at the first page of the Lester Young solo and I'm not seeing much of the altered scale. Here are the dominant chords:
E7: just a few notes, can't tell anything.
A7: Flat nine, but you also f natural (sharp 5), which is not in the alt scale.
E7: you could call this alt because of the flat and sharp nine.
D7: regular nine so no alt here.
G7: one note
E7: It has a D#, which is not part of the alt scale

I didn't bother with the second page, but am I missing something? I'm not seeing much of the alt scale.

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#1864228 - 03/18/12 03:45 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Loc: uk south
I think you are right, I don't think Prez is using any altered scales there, not once is there a b5 against the chord. I think he is using harmonic minors exclusively - A minor harmonic for the E7 chord, and D minor harmonic for the A7 chord - which are suggested by the b9 alternations I mentioned. He uses the sharp9 a couple of times in triplets but I think that is more of a melodic minor embellishment than a fragment from an altered scale. I am not sure the altered scale existed in 1956.
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#1864342 - 03/18/12 07:55 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
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Note that for both the E7 and A7 chords you are playing a F and a C from the original key of C major. Those are alterations.

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#1864626 - 03/19/12 10:04 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1198
Loc: uk south
If you are in the key of C and play an F over an E7 chord what exactly is that an alteration of?
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#1864630 - 03/19/12 10:11 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
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i would have also concluded that E7 resolving to A- was plain old A harmonic minor.

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#1864799 - 03/19/12 03:31 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Ilion Offline
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Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 27
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Here's a little quiz. What scales would you chose for each chord of "All Of Me" . I find all of my students and many professionals do not really realize what the most ideal scale type is for each chord in "All Of Me" :

| C maj7 | Cmaj7 | "E7" | "E7"|
| "A7" | "A7" | D-7 | D-7 |
| "E7" | "E7" | A-7 | A-7 |
| "D7" | "D7" | D-7 | "G7" |


Maybe another way to start this thread could've been:

"Hey guys, I've been thinking about the changes to All of Me and have a pretty cool idea about using a "hyper-mixo-phrygialydian dodecatonic" scale on the A7 chord. I think it's pretty hip... What do you think?"

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#1864971 - 03/19/12 08:39 PM What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me [Re: jjo]
LoPresti Offline
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Loc: New York
Perhaps overly romantic, but I believe that Old Lester was playing what he HEARD, not what he THOUGHT.

Not suggesting that we should not analyze it - that's what theory is for, after all - to systematize something that already is. But once we have some facility, we should be playing what we hear, and not what we think.

Ed
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#1868668 - 03/26/12 10:42 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
daviel Offline
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Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
+1 thumb Golfers, ever try to think your way during a swing? Same with baseball players, and fishing casts!
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#1868676 - 03/26/12 11:02 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I used to think about these stuff when I was learning, but nowdays I try to get away from thinking and just playing what I hear/feel at the moment. It's great to analyze and think about scales, and what kind of ideas work over changes, but at one point, you should just "Learn the changes, then forget them", like Bird once said. Hopefully these ideas just becomes naturally part of what you say in your music.

I also think it's important not to get too carried away with chord-scale theory stuff, and you have no business doing different exotic scales when you can't play a simple inside solo and make it sound melodic. There are plenty of people out there who can tell you all sorts of exotic scales that work over a chord(much more obscure than this one), and yet when they play, their ideas don't make whole lot of sense musically.

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#1868900 - 03/26/12 06:26 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
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Loc: Banned
Part of the point is that the chord symbols for a chart like "All Of Me" give no clue about what the obvious alterations are for the E7 and A7 chords... Masny of my students assume Mixolydian is the implied scale, but we know an E7 b9 b13 type of scale will generally work more smoothly .

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#1868930 - 03/26/12 07:08 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Well, if you want something that work more smoothly, playing/outlining minor ii-V (Emin7b5 A7b9) instead to Dmin7 or Bmin7b5-E7b9 to Amin7 will be smoother, and in some ways more inside/fundamental way of thinking about it.

I think that's is what Oscar Peterson seems to be doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJvaC012LUg

I think this is all the more reason to take charts and scale theory with grain of salt and focus more on learning tunes/solos by ear. charts/scales are good starting point/guideline, but they are oversimplified representation of what happens in music. Also, You can use the altered scale and still make it sound like nonsense unless you play it in a way that it outlines the harmony.

Instead of telling students to use this or that scale, I'd rather have them try to transcribe solos and help them figure things out own their own, come to their own conclusion.. but that all depends on the student's level of motivation.



Edited by etcetra (03/26/12 07:20 PM)

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#1869036 - 03/27/12 12:27 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: etcetra]
Ilion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 27
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Part of the point is that the chord symbols for a chart like "All Of Me" give no clue about what the obvious alterations are for the E7 and A7 chords... Masny of my students assume Mixolydian is the implied scale, but we know an E7 b9 b13 type of scale will generally work more smoothly .


I'm not familiar with that scale, but I am familiar with a ton of tunes that are diatonic and have smoothly written melodies. I agree that mixolydian isn't that hip though these days cool


Originally Posted By: etcetra


Instead of telling students to use this or that scale, I'd rather have them try to transcribe solos and help them figure things out own their own, come to their own conclusion.. but that all depends on the student's level of motivation.



One of my teachers encouraged me to not transcribe, but rather to write my own solos. That was an invaluable endeavor.

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#1869055 - 03/27/12 01:50 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Ilion]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: Ilion


One of my teachers encouraged me to not transcribe, but rather to write my own solos. That was an invaluable endeavor.



I understand the value of writing your own solos.. but Do you mean your teacher told you not to transcribe at all? I ask because pretty much every teacher I had encouraged transcribing as the primary source to learn jazz. They've done 100s of pages of transcriptions in their lifetime, and some of them have actually learned to play an entire album of solos by ear without writing any of it down on paper!

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#1869080 - 03/27/12 04:26 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: etcetra]
Ilion Offline
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Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 27
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: etcetra
Originally Posted By: Ilion


One of my teachers encouraged me to not transcribe, but rather to write my own solos. That was an invaluable endeavor.



I understand the value of writing your own solos.. but Do you mean your teacher told you not to transcribe at all? I ask because pretty much every teacher I had encouraged transcribing as the primary source to learn jazz. They've done 100s of pages of transcriptions in their lifetime, and some of them have actually learned to play an entire album of solos by ear without writing any of it down on paper!


He had done his share of transcribing I'm sure and I definitely did in college. But his point was that if you write your own solos and practice playing them you develop your own voice much more quickly (and learn more quickly) than if you copy someone else's.

And certainly when you transcribe the great players you learn that anything goes. You CAN play major 7ths over dominant chords. You CAN put the 4th on a strong beat, etc...

I know there's value in transcribing but I got far more out of writing the solos myself. Everybody's got their own approach though...

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#1869229 - 03/27/12 12:39 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Ilion]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1198
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Ilion

But his point was that if you write your own solos and practice playing them you develop your own voice much more quickly (and learn more quickly) than if you copy someone else's.

And certainly when you transcribe the great players you learn that anything goes. You CAN play major 7ths over dominant chords. You CAN put the 4th on a strong beat, etc...

I know there's value in transcribing but I got far more out of writing the solos myself. Everybody's got their own approach though...



Definitely I agree with that. Composing your own solos can really help learning to think in a creative way rather than the more passive approach of learning transcriptions. And that is the goal isn't it, to be creative playing lines and music that come from our imagination?
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#1869287 - 03/27/12 03:22 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I know this is kind of getting off topic.. but

I do agree that writing your own solos can be helpful, but I find that at the same time it's easy to just get stuck in what you already know/can do at that point, unless you make conscious effort to absorb something outside of yourself. I don't think I would have came up with all these difficult poly-rhythm or knew how to use them musically if I didn't spend the time transcribing people like Robert Glasper, Tigran Hamasyan, Kenny Kirkland..etc. I felt like my attempts to play outside didn't make much musical sense until I spent a lot of time learning how other people like Chick Corea used it, and learned couples of his solos by ear. transcribing gets me thinking in ways I haven't before.

As far as I know people like Pat Metheny still transcribe music to this day, and my teachers have done well over 500 pages of transcription in their lifetime. That is not to say transcribing is the answer to everything, and often times you still need to figure out how to use what you learned from transcribing, but I just don't believe in this idea that transcriptions are something you grow out of at one point. Maybe I'll stop transcribing when I get to the point nothing I hear is mystery anymore.

Also, about having your own voice and doing your own thing, I've went to Carl Allen's workshop and he pretty much said that you'll end up doing things your way anyways while you are grinding things out, and finding your own voice shouldn't be something that you should focus your energy on.

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#1869555 - 03/28/12 12:53 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: etcetra]
Ilion Offline
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Posts: 27
Loc: United States
Like I said, everyone has their own approach and I was just relating what that particular teacher said on that particular day. But I learned so much from writing that it eclipsed the value of transcribing. Keith Jarrett has said he's never listened to or transcribed any other pianists. Probably untrue, but I personally fall more on that side of the philosophy than Metheny's.

That said, I definitely do focus on listening as much as possible mostly to understand melody and phrasing because the players who are great at that are who I admire most. I have grown out of "what scale is so and so playing over this chord" which is why I initially responded to this thread. (Bringing this back on topic haha).

With respect to one's own voice I really believe that most of us who play jazz will not be remembered among the Kirklands and Jarretts and Hancocks of the world, so there is some inherent futility in finding our own voice. But forcing oneself to create from a blank page can be a great exercise toward that goal.

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#1869565 - 03/28/12 01:27 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I understand where you are coming from and I hope I don't sound like I am trying to convince you which approach is better. I guess for me, I do a little bit of everything because I see advantage/disadvantage in both.

I've noticed that a lot of good players do pre-arrange their solos and when you listen to different recording of the same song done around the same time, they tend to do a lot of the same stuff, sometimes they do 4-8 measures worth of stuff note-by-note(I've read that Oscar Peterson works on fingerings for the ideas he plays over tunes before the gig). It may not be as deliberate as writing out your own solos, but the process is very similar.

I do agree with the whole thing about what scale over chord part.. Hal Galper calls chord-scale theory bogus smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NehOx1JsuT4&feature=related

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#1869601 - 03/28/12 03:37 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: etcetra]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1343
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: etcetra
Hal Galper calls chord-scale theory bogus smile
+1
It's a waste of time.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
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#1869621 - 03/28/12 05:08 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: etcetra]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1198
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: etcetra

I've noticed that a lot of good players do pre-arrange their solos and when you listen to different recording of the same song done around the same time, they tend to do a lot of the same stuff, sometimes they do 4-8 measures worth of stuff note-by-note(I've read that Oscar Peterson works on fingerings for the ideas he plays over tunes before the gig). It may not be as deliberate as writing out your own solos, but the process is very similar.


It does not have to be about 'pre-arranging' the solo though. The idea of writing your own lines is to use you ears and theoretical knowledge to creatively find lines rather than just playing and letting the fingers fall in their familiar patterns or copying someone else's ideas. This way you get to explore your own musical imagination and explore ideas that sound good to your ear. It is much more creatively active than just transcribing and copying. Composing is like improvisation, the more of it you do the better you get at it. Doing this does not mean you have to work out your solos before hand or anything like that.



Originally Posted By: etcetra


I do agree with the whole thing about what scale over chord part.. Hal Galper calls chord-scale theory bogus



Messiaen was into scale theory. One of the greatest composers of the 20th c.
Scales are just groups of notes, as are chords, melodies, licks, all music is made of note patterns. You will get out of scale study what you put into it I think. I certainly find new musical ideas in scales almost every day. Most jazz musicians have not even heard of these scales let alone know what you can do with them.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1869633 - 03/28/12 06:03 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Well put Dave B. You suggested that I go slow and deep when exploring and understanding chords and associated scales-arps, which I've done. I've been richly rewarded.
Coltrane and Rollins were known to study physics/astronomy books to find the ideal arps.

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#1869907 - 03/28/12 05:19 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
beeboss,

Just to be clear, I am not completely dismissing chord scale theory, but I agree with hal galper when he says that in jazz education it's often used as a shortcut and it can be an oversimplified and even misleading.

I think you have take much bigger step and understand each notes of the scale in relations to the harmony, i.e knowing chord tones and how they make up strong melody and how different "embellishments" work in relationship to the chord. I don't think most people are treating ii-V-I as Dorian-Mixolydan-Ionian, but rather one scale with emphasis on different notes for each chord.



so back to the topic, IMO I think it's more valuable to learn how b9 or b13 is working on E7 and A7 and how it's resolving to the next chord, rather than telling someone to use the E7b9b13 scale


Edited by etcetra (03/28/12 05:25 PM)

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#1870296 - 03/29/12 11:09 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: etcetra]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
It's the same thing...

The word "scale" sure has a negative connotation around here. Would it be more acceptable to say "the pool of notes comprised of chords tones and extensions formerly known as the "scale"

A scale is chord tones!
1= root
2= 9th
3= 3rd
4= 11th
5= 5th
6= 13th
7= 7th

uh what's the problem?

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#1870302 - 03/29/12 11:17 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I think the problem with thinking in terms of scales is that some people tend to treat each note in the scale equally without understanding the importance of how each note relate to the harmony. Like I said you can play the right scale over a chord and still sound like nonsense if you aren't emphasizing the right notes to outline the harmony. The reason bebop scale tend to work better than descending mixolodian scale has a lot to do with the fact that bebop scale emphasize chord tones on the strong beats.

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#1870330 - 03/29/12 11:52 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
It's the same thing...

The word "scale" sure has a negative connotation around here. Would it be more acceptable to say "the pool of notes comprised of chords tones and extensions formerly known as the "scale"



This is pretty funny! I think your original question was a valid one too. Sometimes people want to help others by pointing out things that they assume were missed, but in doing so avoid the real question at hand. This leads to discussions such as this thread.
I'm still of the mind that a picture, or in this case a recording, is worth a thousand words.
Why not record some of the scales/notes/chord tones that you find more agreeable/hip/modern and others can respond by posting recording of their ideas?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1870360 - 03/29/12 12:34 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 629
Loc: Chicago
What I've noticed about jazz is that people who try different methods and find one that works for them then seem to universalize what worked for them. In other words, if someone works through chord-scale theory and the guide tone methods,and finds that the later works for them, suddenly they start preaching that one is useless and the other is the holy grail. It's a useless form of in-fighting the only point of which is for someone to feel like they, alone, have discovered the key to jazz.

I think it's clear that there are many paths to the goal, and different paths work for different people. I think it's nonsense to say chord scale theory is a waste of time; I'm sure there are fabulous musicians for whom that was the key. I also have no doubt it is a dead end for some, and for some it's just a partial solution.

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#1870790 - 03/30/12 02:35 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
DaveRobertsJazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 74
When I solo I tend to play around with and off of the melody rather than thinking or worrying about scales.

All of Me is characterized by short descending melody lines. It starts with a descending C major arpeggio from the root to the third ("all of me") and then does a variation of that on E7 from the fifth to the tonic. Similar descending figures (although not falling as far) follow on A7 ("can't you see"), E7 ("take my lips") and later D7 ("take my arms").

So my solo might start out with short descending figures which might then lengthen into longer descending lines or invert into ascending figures or alternate between the two. I might take a descending figure and then move it up and down the keyboard or do a call-and-response with it at various places on the keyboard, etc.

Quoting and playing with the melody is interesting for me and also helps the listener follow the tune during the solo.

There's nothing more boring for me as a listener than hearing a self-indulgent "hip" soloist noodling endlessly with no connection to the tune - every solo tends to sound the same.

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#1870981 - 03/30/12 12:53 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: etcetra]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: etcetra
I think the problem with thinking in terms of scales is that some people tend to treat each note in the scale equally without understanding the importance of how each note relate to the harmony. Like I said you can play the right scale over a chord and still sound like nonsense if you aren't emphasizing the right notes to outline the harmony. The reason bebop scale tend to work better than descending mixolodian scale has a lot to do with the fact that bebop scale emphasize chord tones on the strong beats.


We know all that, you must be talking about beginners or clueless players.

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#1870986 - 03/30/12 12:58 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
The word "scale" sure has a negative connotation around here! Let's be politically correct then... Let's just say "the pool of notes, formerly known as the "scale", comprised of chords tones (to be resolved to) and their extensions or passing tones!" That's a lot simpler than saying "scale".

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#1870989 - 03/30/12 01:01 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
The anti-scale talk reminds me of my friend who insists there are no chords! Just independent contrapuntal type lines that lazy theoreticians insist on calling "chords"... he says you can't be creative if you ever think in chordal terms. He gets a thrill by what he calls "thinking outside the box". He also invented his own notation system that nobody can read. That guy can't play worth a darn.

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#1871017 - 03/30/12 01:58 PM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
The anti-scale talk reminds me of my friend who insists there are no chords! Just independent contrapuntal type lines that lazy theoreticians insist on calling "chords"... he says you can't be creative if you ever think in chordal terms. He gets a thrill by what he calls "thinking outside the box". He also invented his own notation system that nobody can read. That guy can't play worth a darn.


I've heard Hal Galper and other fine piano players who have said the same thing about chords and counterpoint.

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#1871255 - 03/31/12 12:08 AM Re: What are the hippest scales to improv with on "All Of Me" [Re: etcetra]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
The anti-scale talk reminds me of my friend who insists there are no chords! Just independent contrapuntal type lines that lazy theoreticians insist on calling "chords"... he says you can't be creative if you ever think in chordal terms. He gets a thrill by what he calls "thinking outside the box".

Originally Posted By: etcetra
I've heard Hal Galper and other fine piano players who have said the same thing about chords and counterpoint.

On a broad, philosophical level, of course your friend is right; although as etcetra points out, that is far from an original thought. It isn’t even very far “outside the box”. Musical rudiments like scales, intervals, and chords are merely attempts to label and classify series of, or collections of, sounds. In that sense, they are not real - they only serve to describe something real.

These theoretical structures do come in handy when one wants to remember or capture the complex composite of sounds that make up a song, for instance. And they are the very best we have, so far, for passing on musical information to those who wish to learn it. In that regard, it might be interesting to ask this friend how he would go about teaching counterpoint, or even a simple harmonization of a song, to someone learning music, without the use of scales or chords.
Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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