Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
59 registered (AtlantisHero, beethovenop54, AnimistFvR, aceydawg, 15 invisible), 1068 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#1864219 - 03/18/12 03:24 PM Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys
Gritpype Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/12
Posts: 3
Loc: UK
Folks,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Last week, after six years, I took the plunge and moved up from a Yamaha P90 to a Kawai CA93. My decision was based in no small part on the level-headed support and advice from all the posters on this forum.

Well, the piano arrived yesterday and almost everything is wonderful. I love the look of it, the keyboard action and the sound.

However, there's a fly in the ointment - the gap between the white keys varies considerably, with some gaps up to twice the size of others. This doesn't directly affect my playing but it doesn't look very attractive. As luck would have it, the worst-affected area is around middle C, so it's right in front of me!

I've taken a couple of photos to show this:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/TopB2C.jpg
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/SideB2C.jpg
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/TopE2F.jpg

showing:

- the gap between middle C and the adjacent B viewed from on top
- as before, but from the front
- the gap between the E and F above middle C

I know there was an issue a little while back with something similar on the MP10, but I understood that had been resolved.

I shall be contacting the dealer to flag that I'm not happy, but before doing so I would appreciate your thoughts on:

a) has anyone else encountered this?
b) is this sort of variation normal? (Am I simply being too fussy?)
c) might it 'settle down' after some weeks of playing?


Thanks,

Gritpype

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / Roland
The Right Mic Makes all the Difference. Piano Mics at Sweetwater

Click Here


#1864220 - 03/18/12 03:27 PM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
Ovidiu M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 196
Loc: Romania
Thats not nice for a flagship DP...

Top
#1864223 - 03/18/12 03:34 PM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
The dealer should ask Kawai to service it in your home. I think all will be fixed to your satisfaction.

Top
#1864237 - 03/18/12 04:01 PM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
DazedAndConfused Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 201
Loc: Greenwich, London, United King...
Originally Posted By: Gritpype


a) has anyone else encountered this?
b) is this sort of variation normal? (Am I simply being too fussy?)
c) might it 'settle down' after some weeks of playing?


Thanks,

Gritpype


b) No. It shouldn't happen on any instrument let alone a previous one.

c) No. I would advise you to have it serviced at home or send it back. For the money, it ought to be flawless, out of the blocks.
_________________________
Currently working on:
Poulenc, Mouvements Perpetuels
Shostakovich, Prelude & Fugue no. 5
Beethoven, Sonata in F Op. 10 No. 2

Top
#1864243 - 03/18/12 04:11 PM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
Keegan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Canada (Ottawa, ON)
I've seen these gaps on a CA-93 I went to check out at my local dealer about a year ago. When I asked the salesperson about it, he seemed to be eager to dismiss my observation by stating it was a normal part of the design...I didn't bother to argue with him as I really had no intention to buy at that time. I am considering one now, and will certainly ensure these gaps do not exist as I found them extremely visually distracting for such an expensive model.

As far as I remember, the gaps appeared to occur where the "grading" steps would approximately occur on a typical graded hammer action DP (splitting the keyboard into 4 zones).

I've played many different copies of pretty well every DP except the Kawais and have NEVER witnessed such a silly thing as spacing between the keys like I saw on the CA-93 and in the OP's pictures.


Edited by Keegan (03/18/12 04:13 PM)
_________________________
Kawai CA-65, AKG K702, M-Audio Fast Track Pro
Pianoteq, VI Labs Ravenscroft
Macbook Pro 15-inch 2010

Top
#1864245 - 03/18/12 04:12 PM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
It's not unusual for those wooden actions to have gaps like that. Acoustic pianos sometimes do as well. As long as it's not affecting your playing it's probably not a serious problem.

Having said that, it's brand new, so you can probably get a technician from Kawai to come make it better. RM3 is a very simple, easily maintained and fixed action. Probably the felt that holds the keys in position just needs smooshing or something. Even replacing a few keys--the most drastic measure I can imagine--is very easy. I would be comfortable doing this myself if I had a piano that was out of warranty. As it is, nearly brand new, it's better to let the dealer work with it.

Another possibility: it might be that the C key curves just a bit one way and unfortunately the B key curves the opposite way. Either curve could be acceptable but together they are not. The weightings for keys is in four groups, not continuous, so the technician could probably just swap your C key for a nearby F and/or your B for a nearby E and then everything would look even.

Top
#1864286 - 03/18/12 05:50 PM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Gritpype, welcome to the forum, and congratulations on the purchase of your new CA93.

As you note, while the key gap doesn't affect your playing, it's not terribly attractive, so I can fully understand your desire to have it rectified.

Originally Posted By: Gritpype
I know there was an issue a little while back with something similar on the MP10, but I understood that had been resolved.


Yes, it should be resolved on newly received stock, however it's possible that the instrument you received was from an older batch.

Originally Posted By: Gritpype
I shall be contacting the dealer to flag that I'm not happy...


Yes, that would obviously be my recommendation. I'm confident that the dealer will be able to resolve the issue relatively easily.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1864594 - 03/19/12 08:57 AM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
motifmm6 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/12
Posts: 98
Varying gaps is a common complaint, especially for 61-keys and 76 keys non weighted action keys, less common in weighted 88 keys. Lower end products at entry level prices might have a higher chance of having this varying gaps.

The technicians would probably need to open up the DP and re-position the keys, so that the gaps are more even.

On the higher end DPs, this should not be an issue.

It is quite a surprise that CA93, being a rather professional level DP, has this issue.


Edited by motifmm6 (03/19/12 08:58 AM)

Top
#1864602 - 03/19/12 09:20 AM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3879
Loc: North Carolina
Not surprising, really. The high-end Kawais have wooden keys, which are probably bushed ... leading to variation.

The Yamahas and Rolands have plastic keys. The keys are not bushed, and the method of attachment makes uneven spacing very unlikely.

Top
#1864608 - 03/19/12 09:34 AM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
^ this.

The number of keys is irrelevant, as is whether or not they are weighted - I honestly don't know why motifmm6 makes this assumption.

The important factors are materials and mounting/attachment:

- Kawai's high-end keyboard actions use individually cut wooden keys that sit upon a central balance pin.
- Other manufacturers use vacuum/injection moulded plastic keys that essentially 'snap' into place.

That's not to say that large gaps in between keys are acceptable - they're not. And this is why I recommended Gritpype reports his/her concerns to the dealer, requesting that the issue be resolved.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1864665 - 03/19/12 11:32 AM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: motifmm6]
Manolios Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/10
Posts: 130
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: motifmm6
Varying gaps is a common complaint, especially for 61-keys and 76 keys non weighted action keys,


Hmm, that would be new to me, I seriously doubt that this is a common problem with non-weighted / synth keyboards. At least I have never seen or heard this problem occured often to synthesizer keyboards, and I've seen a lot of them throughout the last 25 years. But I certainly didn't see them all, of course. ;-)

For the record, I used and LOVED a Kawai MP9000 and MP9500 in the last 10 years, both had the AWA Grand Pro keyboard ( I guess ) and while they had little varying gaps between the keys, it never was a big problem for me.



Edited by Manolios (03/19/12 12:08 PM)

Top
#1864690 - 03/19/12 12:25 PM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
motifmm6 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/12
Posts: 98
I made the assumption based on my observations in the stores and a 61 keys synth I owned which has the same problem. I play the MM6 synth and there is a significant gap between the B and C keys for almost all the 5 octaves, with the middle C being most obvious. It wasn't really a big problem for me, but in terms of aesthetics/looks, it's a little distracting. Then I went to the shops to check out the keys. I noticed that for the cheaper PSR models, this problem is more prevalent. However, on the higher end models like the MOTIF, I didn't notice this issue on the keys.

Also, I check out the 88 weighted keys on GHS (eg. MM8, MOX8, DGX, P95 etc). I didn't notice such problems on the GHS keys too. For the GH3 keys, like those on Clavinovas, I didn't see such problems too. So I assume that generally for 88 keys, the problem is less compared to 61 keys.

I guess it has something to do with the quality checks in place when fixing the keys onto the board.

For very discerning players, such gaps could affect the playability of the DP.



Edited by motifmm6 (03/19/12 12:27 PM)

Top
#1865393 - 03/20/12 03:17 PM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
Gritpype Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/12
Posts: 3
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Gritpype


I shall be contacting the dealer to flag that I'm not happy...


Thanks for the comments everyone - you've helped reassure me I'm not being unreasonable. I've contacted the dealer and he's arranging for a technician to visit and inspect/repair.
I'm away for a week, so it'll probably be ten days or so before anything actually happens, but I'll let you know the outcome. (And maybe a couple of pictures to show the 'after' results!)

Regards
Gritpype

Top
#1865398 - 03/20/12 03:29 PM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: motifmm6]
vegasE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 226
Loc: Sydney, AU
Originally Posted By: motifmm6
For very discerning players, such gaps could affect the playability of the DP.


Excuse #84 for a bad performance: it was the gaps between the keys.

Top
#1865416 - 03/20/12 04:04 PM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: vegasE]
andi85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/11
Posts: 90
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: vegasE
Originally Posted By: motifmm6
For very discerning players, such gaps could affect the playability of the DP.


Excuse #84 for a bad performance: it was the gaps between the keys.


In that case, you're excused.
_________________________
Best

Andreas

Top
#2027836 - 02/06/13 02:32 AM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
Petro15 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 1
Hi all, I have very similar gaps in my new Yamaha CLP 470.
I ve called to dealer and the reply was that various gaps are normal in digital pianos and also acustic grand pianos.

Gritpype, how did you solve the problem?

Regards,
Petro

Top
#2027847 - 02/06/13 03:20 AM Re: Kawai CA93 - varying gaps between white keys [Re: Gritpype]
Dustin Spray Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 51
Loc: Central Illinois
I have some minor gaps on my new Kawai CA65 as well. The most noticable one is the "D" above middle "C", but it seems to be a common issue and people have said to not get too hung up on it and let it bother you. Im not going to worry about it because my piano plays wonderful and I would rather not have somebody rip into and "fix" something thats not really broke in my opinion........

Refer to this thread.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2014743

It appears to be normal for pianos with wooden keys to have some small gaps.....


Edited by Dustin Spray (02/06/13 03:26 AM)

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!

Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Are there any upright owners who leave the front open?
by harpon
Today at 01:00 AM
They don't call him the 'Poet of the Piano' for nothing!
by JoelW
Yesterday at 11:53 PM
Steinway rebuild question
by schlaigs
Yesterday at 10:00 PM
Baldwin Hamilton Hammer Butt and Back Stop Leather
by Ryan Hassell
Yesterday at 09:55 PM
Please help me to find out the pattern of this Cdim7
by SZ54
Yesterday at 08:12 PM
Forum Stats
77083 Members
42 Forums
159435 Topics
2342068 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission