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#1864338 - 03/18/12 07:49 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: musicendeavour]
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Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 804
Loc: Another Country
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Dan, I was in a worse position than you are just six months ago. Now I can read G1 to B6 fairly easily.
I think the problem with the notes at the further reaches/the ledger lines is that we just play them/read them less than A4 or C5. I've been doing pieces that contain a lot of these notes, singly and in chords, forcing myself to keep on reading them every day.
What I did find initially, with the outer reaches, was that while for common notes, C5 etc., I would know that the note is C immediately and play it immediately, for outer reaches I'd get to know where to play it without knowing/realising immediately what it was called by looking at the music. On paper, I'd still be doing the calculation. I'm trying to rectify that now.
_________________________
Currently working on: F. Couperin - Preludes & Sweelinck - Fantasia Chromatica J.S. Bach, Einaudi, Purcell, Froberger, Croft, Blow, Frescobaldi, Glass, Couperin 1930s upright (piano) & single manual William Foster (harpsichord)
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#1864448 - 03/18/12 11:46 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: musicendeavour]
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Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 965
Loc: Portlandia
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I use software to give me a workout on this sort of thing. Check out this multi-platform Java software: PrestoKeys. You can set it up to quiz you on notes within certain boundaries, like only the ledger lines, and you can make it very easy or very hard. If you find that you enjoy it, the paid version lets you play the notes through MIDI on your digital piano, instead of using the standard little on-screen keyboard. Also try the exercises section of Teoria.com. The site will teach you a lot of stuff about note reading, chords, etc. and then the exercises will quiz you on it.
_________________________
Please step aside. You're standing in your own way. piano blog
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#1866361 - 03/22/12 12:47 AM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: musicendeavour]
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Full Member
Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 196
Loc: Romania
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Hi all
The answer I guess is practise more. Thats the magical answer. No way around it.
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#1866391 - 03/22/12 02:32 AM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: musicendeavour]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
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The answer that I have just been given last week on the telephone to my piano teachers father, who used to be the organist at Westminster Cathedral may surprise everyone.
He stopped being the cathedral organist and went into teaching and has also made an albumn in the past of his piano playing.
Let me just say at this point, that he is elderly, and on the phone he gave me an example of himself sight reading at his piano whilst I listened on the phone.
I have been waiting for a good time to share his advice and this appears to be perfect to help folk.
As I listened on the telephone, he went and played at first sight, a piece by shultz with such virtuosity and vigour I was rooted to the spot, and can honestly say, I was floored.
I have allways believed in life, if you dont know how to do something, no matter what it is, and you find someone who can do what you want to do, then observe carefully and listen well to what they say, even if its not what you want to hear, such is the best way to learn, from a master at their chosen craft.
This was his advice on sight reading: 101 from the begining.
Pick a stave, draw a note on it anywhere. lets say a G in the treble clef. play it. Do you have to think about it? answer yes? then start again.
Once you have that G note, where your finger goes straight to G without thinking " er G" then, only then add an F below the G, then an A above it.
Make some little excercises of g, f a , nothing else, in as many variations as you can . Over and over.
Then add a B above the A and an E below the F .
again, make many little excercises, that contain these notes, things like g,g,ff,bab, ee a,f,f,a,b,g,
When you are playing these excercises, the first time you have to thinK "er is that a?" whilst looking at the score you have written,
You have made ( in his words) "a horlicks of it" and have to start again.
The deal is that step of "is that an A or is that a G?" has to be removed, you have no time for it.
gradually bit, by bit, you add notes at the top and at the bottom, and repeat the making of excercises step.
Your fingers have to go to what you see on the stave, Without the "thinking step"
So, I personally am taking his advice, and allthough this means for me starting further back than I wish too, I know I will improve faster as a result, but more importantly, if this is the way to learn to be able to do what he can do, then I want in big time.
He has also sent me a book, that he thinks will also help, I will share the name of it when I get it tommorrow.
He stressed, "you have no time to be "thinking" what the notes are" "You must avoid that step"
I hope this helps folk, and can promise, I personally will be employing this technique.
_________________________
Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley Founder and creator of Rostoskys 13th crystal skull project
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#1866418 - 03/22/12 04:39 AM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: Rostosky]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4202
Loc: South Florida
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The bottom line is that a completely solid link has to be formed between every written note and the key that matches it.
If you even have to THINK about the name of a note while reading, or name an interval, or do anything similar, you are not yet truly reading.
It's very similar to reading a book. If you have to think of phonics, or grammar, or verbs, or ANYTHING, you are stumbling.
And the only way to get better at reading is to read. The method you described is one path. There are others.
_________________________
Piano Teacher
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#1866420 - 03/22/12 05:31 AM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: Rostosky]
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Full Member
Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 202
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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The answer that I have just been given last week on the telephone to my piano teachers father, who used to be the organist at Westminster Cathedral may surprise everyone.
He stopped being the cathedral organist and went into teaching and has also made an albumn in the past of his piano playing.
Let me just say at this point, that he is elderly, and on the phone he gave me an example of himself sight reading at his piano whilst I listened on the phone.
I have been waiting for a good time to share his advice and this appears to be perfect to help folk.
As I listened on the telephone, he went and played at first sight, a piece by shultz with such virtuosity and vigour I was rooted to the spot, and can honestly say, I was floored.
I have allways believed in life, if you dont know how to do something, no matter what it is, and you find someone who can do what you want to do, then observe carefully and listen well to what they say, even if its not what you want to hear, such is the best way to learn, from a master at their chosen craft.
This was his advice on sight reading: 101 from the begining.
Pick a stave, draw a note on it anywhere. lets say a G in the treble clef. play it. Do you have to think about it? answer yes? then start again.
Once you have that G note, where your finger goes straight to G without thinking " er G" then, only then add an F below the G, then an A above it.
Make some little excercises of g, f a , nothing else, in as many variations as you can . Over and over.
Then add a B above the A and an E below the F .
again, make many little excercises, that contain these notes, things like g,g,ff,bab, ee a,f,f,a,b,g,
When you are playing these excercises, the first time you have to thinK "er is that a?" whilst looking at the score you have written,
You have made ( in his words) "a horlicks of it" and have to start again.
The deal is that step of "is that an A or is that a G?" has to be removed, you have no time for it.
gradually bit, by bit, you add notes at the top and at the bottom, and repeat the making of excercises step.
Your fingers have to go to what you see on the stave, Without the "thinking step"
So, I personally am taking his advice, and allthough this means for me starting further back than I wish too, I know I will improve faster as a result, but more importantly, if this is the way to learn to be able to do what he can do, then I want in big time.
He has also sent me a book, that he thinks will also help, I will share the name of it when I get it tommorrow.
He stressed, "you have no time to be "thinking" what the notes are" "You must avoid that step"
I hope this helps folk, and can promise, I personally will be employing this technique.
I'm eager to hear what book it is.
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#1866434 - 03/22/12 07:00 AM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: musicendeavour]
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Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 804
Loc: Another Country
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Good post, Rossy.
I think you need to know instantly what the note on paper is on the keyboard, AND you need to know immediately what the note is called. Maybe we could call it a triangle of virtue (as opposed to a vicious circle). :-)
_________________________
Currently working on: F. Couperin - Preludes & Sweelinck - Fantasia Chromatica J.S. Bach, Einaudi, Purcell, Froberger, Croft, Blow, Frescobaldi, Glass, Couperin 1930s upright (piano) & single manual William Foster (harpsichord)
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#1866444 - 03/22/12 07:40 AM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: musicendeavour]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
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I will let you know what book he has sent me tommorrow when I get back from my Piano lesson, it is there waiting for me.
_________________________
Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley Founder and creator of Rostoskys 13th crystal skull project
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#1866457 - 03/22/12 08:08 AM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: Eglantine]
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Full Member
Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 94
Loc: Spain. Cadiz.
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you need to know instantly what the note on paper is on the keyboard, AND you need to know immediately what the note is called If you play only by note-names, you need to know what key/note is under each finger at all times. If you play only by intervals, you can lose everything from a small error. I think you need a holistic approach, becoming aware of both the notes and intervals.
_________________________
Started learning piano: 01 March 2010 - Ex: Yamaha P-85, Kawai ES-4 - Current: Kawai CA-63 - Videos
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#1866478 - 03/22/12 09:05 AM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: musicendeavour]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 1673
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
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My sister went through JT's books, while I just dipped. She took the books to the US when she moved there after Univ. so I haven't seen the books for thirty-odd years but I still play some of them (Offenbach's Barcarolle, Burgmuller's Ballade). Some I've now got the scores for (Clementi's sonatinas) and some of them I've learnt the original versions of (Liebestraume, Schubert's serenade - play the Schubert version, working on the Liszt). Good course! I am having to read by intervals rather than what actual note it is...The answer I guess is practise more. I'm not sure I understand this interval business. When I read, it's an automatic reaction. I'm comfortable following a full score to a symphony as well as just piano music. I sight-sing in my head and can sight read Mozart's sonatas etc. one hand at a time. But when it comes to reading both staves while controlling both hands at the piano, I struggle with the Anna Magdalena Notebook. Whenever I hear people recommending more practise I automatically think 'practise what?'. So, practise following scores to sonatas and such while listening to the music. It helped me reading the timing as well as the notes. Practise sight reading melodies and sing along with them at the same time. This will develop the ability to both sight-sing and to play by ear (which is helpful when you've memorised the song in your head but not at the piano). Practise sight-reading easy material (the better you get the easier it is to find suitable source material but the harder it is to find material you haven't played before). And welcome to the forum!
_________________________
Richard
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#1866652 - 03/22/12 02:42 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: Rostosky]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1281
Loc: MA
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The answer that I have just been given last week on the telephone to my piano teachers father, who used to be the organist at Westminster Cathedral may surprise everyone.
He stopped being the cathedral organist and went into teaching and has also made an albumn in the past of his piano playing.
Let me just say at this point, that he is elderly, and on the phone he gave me an example of himself sight reading at his piano whilst I listened on the phone.
I have been waiting for a good time to share his advice and this appears to be perfect to help folk.
As I listened on the telephone, he went and played at first sight, a piece by shultz with such virtuosity and vigour I was rooted to the spot, and can honestly say, I was floored.
I have allways believed in life, if you dont know how to do something, no matter what it is, and you find someone who can do what you want to do, then observe carefully and listen well to what they say, even if its not what you want to hear, such is the best way to learn, from a master at their chosen craft.
This was his advice on sight reading: 101 from the begining.
Pick a stave, draw a note on it anywhere. lets say a G in the treble clef. play it. Do you have to think about it? answer yes? then start again.
Once you have that G note, where your finger goes straight to G without thinking " er G" then, only then add an F below the G, then an A above it.
Make some little excercises of g, f a , nothing else, in as many variations as you can . Over and over.
Then add a B above the A and an E below the F .
again, make many little excercises, that contain these notes, things like g,g,ff,bab, ee a,f,f,a,b,g,
When you are playing these excercises, the first time you have to thinK "er is that a?" whilst looking at the score you have written,
You have made ( in his words) "a horlicks of it" and have to start again.
The deal is that step of "is that an A or is that a G?" has to be removed, you have no time for it.
gradually bit, by bit, you add notes at the top and at the bottom, and repeat the making of excercises step.
Your fingers have to go to what you see on the stave, Without the "thinking step"
So, I personally am taking his advice, and allthough this means for me starting further back than I wish too, I know I will improve faster as a result, but more importantly, if this is the way to learn to be able to do what he can do, then I want in big time.
He has also sent me a book, that he thinks will also help, I will share the name of it when I get it tommorrow.
He stressed, "you have no time to be "thinking" what the notes are" "You must avoid that step"
I hope this helps folk, and can promise, I personally will be employing this technique.
That's a great idea, I'm going to do it too. I'm reminded of something I learned in an adult ed music theory class that I have to say significantly helped my reading. I already knew all the notes on the staff but sometimes I still had to resort to using the ol' mnemonic all cows eat grass etc. (personally I think the is a terrible way to teach people how to read music and when I am helping others to learn I never use it and they learn to read SO much faster than I did!). Anyway, he told us to first identify what clef we are quizzing ourselves in and then say (in Treble clef) first line E, third line B, second space A. and so on. So I did this and before I knew it I was looking at the music and "intuitively" knowing what the notes were without even thinking about it. I was really surprised. You can do this while looking at music or even when you are away from the music. Sometimes I would quiz myself while going to sleep. (obviously in the beginning you need to make sure you are correct before you start quizzing-lol). I used to avoid ledger lines line the plague. I guess I just felt too overwhelmed. But then I realized, technically, I already know what they are (and here is another tip I got is to get used to reading in thirds etc). So, knowing that in treble clef the last line on the staff is F when then the first line note that extends above that is A. So, I just did the same thing with the ledger lines. I would envision them in my mind and the identify them. First line (beyond staff) A, second line C. You get the idea. If you don't have music in front of you it really helps to visualize it. But even if you don't i find it still helps. I'm much slower at identifying the notes that extend below the bass staff though. Guess its time to start quizzing myself on that! I think it would be good to add your friends idea and play the notes on the piano as you are quizzing yourself but this is also a good exercise to do to if you are away from your piano.
_________________________
“The doubters said, "Man cannot fly," The doers said, "Maybe, but we'll try," And finally soared in the morning glow while non-believers watched from below.” ― Bruce Lee
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#1866740 - 03/22/12 05:04 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: Kymber]
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Full Member
Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 94
Loc: Spain. Cadiz.
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During my first months at the piano, I always had a deck of cards in my pocket. When I was away from the piano and had a free moment, took the deck and I started to read notes, down to two lines below the bass clef and up two lines above the treble clef.    Here you have the flashcards: treble clef and bass clef. However, this only helps to recognize the names of the notes, but does not help the reading of the duration of the figures.
_________________________
Started learning piano: 01 March 2010 - Ex: Yamaha P-85, Kawai ES-4 - Current: Kawai CA-63 - Videos
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#1866757 - 03/22/12 05:29 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: supertorpe]
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Junior Member
Registered: 03/05/12
Posts: 14
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
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you need to know instantly what the note on paper is on the keyboard, AND you need to know immediately what the note is called If you play only by note-names, you need to know what key/note is under each finger at all times. If you play only by intervals, you can lose everything from a small error. I think you need a holistic approach, becoming aware of both the notes and intervals. Whilst I was practising last night, I realised that you do need to both. I've been used to mostly being in a c position which is easy if you associate notes on the staff with fingers. The tricky part now is that when I am in a different finger position, I am hitting the wrong note by using the wrong finger. One approach I am taking is to imagine in my head where i am on the keyboard without looking down and be aware of what note I am hitting and follow that on the page as well as see th intervals. It's like I'd multitasking. I think if I carry on with this, and do it slowly it will pay off. The best way that it has paid off so far is when playing in the key of F major. I started to see all the b's of the staff as being flat because i new my finger was about to go to b and I could see it in my head in a virtual keyboard.
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#1866765 - 03/22/12 05:54 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: musicendeavour]
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Junior Member
Registered: 03/22/12
Posts: 17
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[Ad removed]
Edited by YD (03/26/12 03:20 PM) Edit Reason: Advertisement
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#1867403 - 03/23/12 06:48 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: Kymber]
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Full Member
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 417
Loc: Southwest
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One of the books that my piano class professor recommended for those that struggle with sight reading is "Speed-Reading at the Keyboard". It's supposed to help students masteer the art of sight reading. I looked over and worked at some of the drills in her copy and am ordering a copy from Amazon today. From the description it teaches the student how to recognize familiar musical phrases, intervals and harmonies at a glance. Although my reading skills are good, my sight-reading skills need more work. I was told you have to practice sight-reading every day. Use as many old piano books and sheet music that you can buy or borrow.
After I have the book and work on it for a few months, I'll let you know my progress. I have been practicing sight reading for the last 4 semesters and I have improved....but still a long way to go.
_________________________
J & J Yahama C3 PE Casio Privia PX-330 "Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." Pablo Picasso
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#1958828 - 09/14/12 12:13 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: musicendeavour]
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Full Member
Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 96
Loc: student
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I only know how to sight read by reading every note. My sight reading is getting better each day but it is still not that great. (I am sight reading at an intermediete level) My teacher said I should sight read by reading intervals. Before I attempt to read this way I need to know...How are most pianists sight reading?...I am getting better reading my way but I want to know how most pianists sight read. Please can you help?
Edited by cor (09/14/12 12:44 PM)
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#1958838 - 09/14/12 12:49 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: j&j]
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Full Member
Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 96
Loc: student
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I just bought that book "Speed Reading at the keyboard" from Amazon.
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#1958911 - 09/14/12 03:14 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: musicendeavour]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 735
Loc: Northern, Northern California
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I think I can help here. My sight-reading blog has a lot on exactly this topic (see link in sig). 1. I am convinced they are important (after going through a period when I thought they weren't). 2. If you're like me, it will not just come. You have to force yourself to notice the intervals. I still have problems. 3. I created interval flash cards that I use on my iPod Touch. For example: I've uploaded them all here: http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a39/TromboneAl/Intervals/
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#1958914 - 09/14/12 03:20 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: musicendeavour]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 735
Loc: Northern, Northern California
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Here's a hard exercise that I think I made up: Transpose to another key. When you do that, you are forced to look only at intervals, because the notes are wrong! This works well with hymns. For every new note, you must recognize the interval between it and the preceding note -- same for chords. For example: Transpose this from C to F. The key signature is now F, and you start with the lowest note being C instead of G. Now you must notice that the first interval is a fifth. For the next chord, you'll move your lowest finger up an octave, and for a third with your fingers. Get the idea? Also, a good way to code the second measure is "The top note stays the same, and the bottom note moves down a third, then back up." It's very hard, and you have to go very slowly, but I think it helps.
Edited by TromboneAl (09/14/12 03:30 PM)
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#1959332 - 09/15/12 05:51 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: TromboneAl]
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Full Member
Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 96
Loc: student
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Thanks so much Al! I tried it with a very easy beginner piece and I was able to transpose it while reading the intervals. I really appreciate you taking the time to give me this information. I will check out the link with the flash cards.
I have another question. How is it possible to read the intervals with both hands at the same time? Is this hard to do?
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#1959364 - 09/15/12 07:30 PM
Re: sight reading intervals vs 'decoding' learning experiences
[Re: cor]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 735
Loc: Northern, Northern California
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Thanks so much Al! I tried it with a very easy beginner piece and I was able to transpose it while reading the intervals. I really appreciate you taking the time to give me this information. I will check out the link with the flash cards.
I have another question. How is it possible to read the intervals with both hands at the same time? Is this hard to do? Glad that helped. Yes, for me, intervals for both hands are hard, but many people do it with ease. It gets easier.
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