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#1391277 - 03/08/10 12:40 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Jake Jackson]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Jake:

If you are trying to get wide double octaves and narrow 12ths, just tune 4:2 octaves. Because of iH, tuning stacked 4:2 octaves will always produce a double octave that is wide of 4:1. Whether the single octaves, double octaves or 12ths will sound like they beat depends on the listener.

If you are trying to understand Alfredo's tuning instructions, I cannot help you. I have not been able to reconcile the different things he has said.
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Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1391470 - 03/08/10 04:05 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Jake Jackson]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Jake,

about the 12th, I recorded today a twelve with a pure 3:1 ratio.
I mean : 440 hz (A-49) and 1320 Hz : E6

That twelve had 5 beats at the 3:1 level , coming form the 3d partial of A440 that was at 1325 Hz (measured with Tunelab)

It was on that piano, I admit it is a highly inharmonic one

To tune that 12th so it have no beta at all, the E6 may be tuned at 1325 Hz.
That is what tuners call a "pure" interval (which by evidence is all but "pure" but that is another story).

Frankly I did not get yet all the theoretical explanations, from Alfredo paper, (but I work on that) I was lucky enough to see him doing, to listen and to analyze that with what I know about tuning - as usual those kind of things take time aint as discovering something and understanding immediately what happens.

Jake you misunderstood about the octave (while the octaves are always wide at some point in a piano, if minimally the 2d partial of the bottom note IS the pitch of the fundamental of the upper , this is what Philippe call "iH correction", if not the octave sound false, and too small.

The equivalence of beats in Chas is between the 12th and the DOUBLE octave (2 octaves stacked)

This lend to octaves that are wide but it is not as say Jeff 4:2 + 4:2, the bottom octave can be short of 4:2 , it depends of the level of iH at that part of the piano (and the level of iH of that particular piano). There is always a tendency to oversimplify those concepts, practically many things are intricate, many technical gesture have to be learned, and appropriated, a good job is the result of many details added.


ALfredo tunes by listening directly at the slow and lower level of beat rate : octaves at 2:1 , doubles at 4:1 12ths at 3:1 ; 5ths at 3:2 not using the checks that compare 2 fast beating intervals, as the M6 M17th to check the 12th size.

I tuned the last piano using those checks (after having followed the same method Alfredo uses) , and seem to me they are suitable for that and that the result is similar.

Simply it may be easier to tune directly and compare the beat progression of intervals that are next each other, than to use totally different intervals, that add complexity for the listening (but in the end the evenness of tone is helping, all intervals may be progressive so one can use whatever interval he prefers.

Coming back to the theory, I simply noticed that the method works perfectly, and that a "hot spot" is there, efficient and audible.
In the end the harmony is raised, the piano sound a tad larger, that have always be my intention to tune in the harmonic spectra of any piano, taking care that the notes spectra add each other nicely en raise the resonance of the instrument.

One of the main problem for tuners is to tune the high treble so it does not sound too low, nor too much stretched. Most of the time the top end of the piano follow a kind of added stretch that is not really lining with the notes under. The same occur in the basses. Enlarging the mediums helps to get there more in line, but only the Chas method allow to get some crispness in the treble (due to the good coupling of many intervals with the top note)without accentuating the stretch curve (it accentuate , but naturally because of the ih raising much in the treble).

Voila, thats all I can say at the moment. There is even more in that, I feel so, but I cant say much more.

I had yet today a pianist that call me saying he like the way the piano plays now , I appreciate it; not easy to do new things...

On the records made with Pianoteq, what I hear is may be not noticed by anyone, but I know what I am looking for.


The Chas tuning is highly balanced in a stable equilibrated way. Other ways to balance a tuning are available, providing harmony, but very often the zone where the notes are all perfectly in tune in the main harmonic modes is not so large, 4- 5 octaves span may be, then the piano may have registers, and the tuner have to even/regulate those registers so they are appropriate to the acoustic of the place.
I am yet to listen Chas when used in concert, and with orchestra, in a room , I go for it. To me if the justness seem to be raised in the ear of musicians most probably it will be good to play with orchestra also.

The effect is so particular that I cant predict what it will give in that situation.



Edited by Kamin (03/08/10 04:17 PM)
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#1391531 - 03/08/10 05:18 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Olek]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 586
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Yes, I see now. But where I still get lost: given that the double octaves and 12ths should beat equally, how much should they beat?

Am I seeking a compromise to adjust for iH, or is there instead an intentional slight roll that I want to install? What should I do, in other words, if the piano has very low iH, so that the double octave beat and the 12ths beat are almost indetectable? Should I slightly repitch both to create a more perceptible, slow rolling that is identical on both the double octave and the 12ths?

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#1391547 - 03/08/10 05:35 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Jake Jackson]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1732
Loc: Colorado
Hi Jake,
It might depend on how the other notes relate to each other down the register so as to stay consistent with the amount of stretch. You have also to consider how the "whole piano" sounds. That is one of the advantages of checking double octaves, etc.

I tuned a few pianos on Saturday and experimented with a compromise between a double octave and an octave and a 5th. The wider the octaves become up the register relative to the tempered section, the less narrow the 5ths become, working their way to near pure.

Frankly, when you get either correct, the instrument will sound good. It then becomes more qualitative and a matter of taste as to how much to stretch.

Without really good unions anyway, all the octave stretching and temperament choices begin to lose their value.

If you have time, post a few samples of your tunings.

Glen
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#1391560 - 03/08/10 05:58 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Jake Jackson]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Jake Jackson
Yes, I see now. But where I still get lost: given that the double octaves and 12ths should beat equally, how much should they beat?

Am I seeking a compromise to adjust for iH, or is there instead an intentional slight roll that I want to install? What should I do, in other words, if the piano has very low iH, so that the double octave beat and the 12ths beat are almost indetectable? Should I slightly repitch both to create a more perceptible, slow rolling that is identical on both the double octave and the 12ths?



Jake this is a very good question ! on pianos with high iH all mean to absorb that iH and find something harmonious are good. But if the piano have low iH , to have the same beat value in an octave it may be less stretched than usually.

I did not have that situation yet, so I cant say. As the idea is to have an equilibrium between the double octave, the 12
th, that relation induce also a symmetric relation
2 octaves lower.

I tend to thing that the global stretch may be lowered then.

There is a roll, but it is so slow it couple before finishing its cycle. anyway it is not noticed as a roll, just as the beginning of one. It may be ascertain by checks using other intervals, as the M3 and the double octave, or the M3 and the octave, and comparing the beat speed. But with differences as small as 0.3 bps it is very easy to miss, and easier to go for a kind of tone , or a behavior of the interval, and stick to it.

Anyway, the difficult part is to begin, after that the good spot is in the ear and in the piano resonance. (that part is less reproduced with Pianoteq , what I hear is some resonance, but not as much reinforcement as at the piano- but it is still partly there so it may be possible to tune it.

You may try to learn to recognize a "pure 5th" or a "pure 12t" from a larger one and a tempered one. Musically, the output is different, even if the beats may be difficult to perceive at first, the color of the interval change.






Edited by Kamin (03/08/10 06:06 PM)
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#1391948 - 03/09/10 07:24 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Jake Jackson]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Jake:

With a 12th and 15ths having a common note on top, the algebraic difference of their beatrates will always be equal to the beatrate of the implied fourth on the bottom regardless of how the top note is tuned. So if you want them to be equal beating, and the fourth beats 1 bps wide of just, the 12th must beat 1/2 bps narrow and the 15th must beat 1/2 bps wide. 1/2 - (-1/2) = 1.

When tuning equal beating 12ths and 15ths, fourths beat about 1 bps in the middle of the piano, a little faster in the treble and a little slower in the bass. So the 12ths and 15ths may beat up to 1 bps in the treble, and probably slower than can be noticed in the bass.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1392065 - 03/09/10 10:27 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: UnrightTooner]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 586
Loc: Atlanta, GA
(Glancing at the thread title and seeing "Historical ET and Modern ETs," I worry that I'm narrowing the focus too much, here. I'll continue over on the CHas pretuning thread.)

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#1394823 - 03/13/10 07:41 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Jake Jackson]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hello, just a personal comment about a fresh acknowledgement.

A young piano tuner and PW poster from Finland, Patrick (pppat), writes:

..."there is something esthetical about the mathematically symmetrical tuning (ET), but there is no question that the color palette of EBVT III makes the (sensible) pianist play the instrument in a different way."...

To me, this is quite something: for the first time a positive comment is spent about the mathematical symmetries of Modern ETs.

What may any young tuner share next?

1 – The first “conventional” ET, 12th root of two, has evolved into “variants”

2 – These ET “variants” have now been described both mathematically and geometrically, they represent Modern ETs

3 – Modern ET theory is finally practicable

4 - Modern ETs beats-symmetries can increase the performance of any piano

About any tuner, I hope his/her understanding about Modern ETs beat-symmetries go from their aesthetic beauty deep down to their astonishing practical effects. Then, he/she will be able to recognize past and present hybrid tunings with a high degree of specific knowledge and professional consciousness.

Regards, a.c.

.


Edited by alfredo capurso (03/13/10 07:46 AM)
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alfredo

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#1394844 - 03/13/10 08:31 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
You know, When I have read those kind of comments for the first time, I have find them somehow presumptuous,and I recall I have stated that.

Now that I have tried n and hopefully understand (at last partly) the composition of that tuning, I may say that I understand what Alfredo is trying to state ).

The result of that evening of beats, symmetry and higher resonance, gives the tuner a different ear when he listen to a more conventional ET, and it provide him a reference model to compare with. That is very strange as a sensation, but the level of harmony is then apprehended when listening to more classical tunings.

THen , in some cases the same kind of effect can be perceived sometime only in a portion of the scale. SOmetime it is even larger than the ratio, (un focusing) and in other situations the compactness of the tuning is what jump to the ear.

I believe that it may change the way we listen, eventually the way we tune, indeed and certainly the way we "stretch" a tuning if done in our usual way.

To me, at the same time the Chas is at the best place for resonance and harmony, while being "at the edge", meaning that a step above and the piano will not tone well.

So knowing that kind of limit in spread is a very useful thing, to me , as the tuning itself is simply "normal" the ability of the tuner to have a good tone and stability, and to understand how the piano settle, is only what will make the difference, part experience, part good sensations, part listening, but justness is well taken in account by the ratio itself, that is a quiet comfort sensation, which is appreciable.


I have seen private witnesses and acknowledgments coming from other tuners and they seem to say all the same thing.

I know some good tuners, and it is really strange, but all of them have doubts : do I have well stretched that tuning ? Is the justness well reconciled ? Many of them are unsure of the real justness of the instruments, and that seem to be confirmed by the orchestra instrumentalists that say that the piano is "in tune enough" for them.

We dont imagine how much some of us can be wanderers even after 30 years of career and more ! I'd appreciate comments from other tuners on that aspect (but seem to me that having strong affirmations is also a natural tendency in that trade, and that questioning itself is not much in the trend, nor agreable)


The theory is that as long as the tuning come by the Chas ratio, it may settle in there, for some reason

This may be somewhat difficult to test and prove, but possible, if someone have an idea of a battery of to test it would be welcome
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1394944 - 03/13/10 11:37 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Olek]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 586
Loc: Atlanta, GA
One thing that I find striking is that EBVT and CHas, although obviously very, very different in intention, both seek equal beating on the narrowed 12ths and widened double octaves. They are seeking similar resonances. (But of course EBVT brings out the key color changes, while CHas instead seeks the ET goal while trying to keep the resonances.)

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#1395564 - 03/14/10 02:22 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Olek]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Kamin

Here is a real application of the [CHAS] tuning formula in a virtual piano :

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php?file=CP33%2005.03.2010%202%20CHASIH%20demo.mp3

[...]

Same music but with standard tuning , for comparaison purpose

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php?file=CP33%2005.03.2010%201.mp3



Isaac, Alfredo:

Very good example - the difference is highly noticeable. The CHAS tuning sounds uniform, yet open.

What would be the "standard tuning" of the file that CHAS is compared to?
_________________________
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Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
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Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1395611 - 03/14/10 03:21 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: UnrightTooner]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Jake:

If you are trying to get wide double octaves and narrow 12ths, just tune 4:2 octaves. Because of iH, tuning stacked 4:2 octaves will always produce a double octave that is wide of 4:1. Whether the single octaves, double octaves or 12ths will sound like they beat depends on the listener.


Jeff,

What would pure 12ths in the mid-range break down to octave-wise, in your experience? 6:3's, or somewhat narrower?

This as a practical question, given different inharmonicity and scaling problems. I can do the math theoretically (as I know you can), but what's your 'hands-on' experience?
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1395617 - 03/14/10 03:28 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Olek]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Kamin

ALfredo tunes by listening directly at the slow and lower level of beat rate : octaves at 2:1 , doubles at 4:1 12ths at 3:1 ; 5ths at 3:2 not using the checks that compare 2 fast beating intervals, as the M6 M17th to check the 12th size.


Isaac,

could you give a more specific explanation? 2:1 octaves and 3:2 fifths sounds good in theory. Did you invent a new instrument or something? :-D
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1395621 - 03/14/10 03:37 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: pppat]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Pat, in mine (experience) , less than 6:3 , a very quiet octave in fact .
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1398088 - 03/17/10 07:46 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Hello, just a personal comment about a fresh acknowledgement.

A young piano tuner and PW poster from Finland, Patrick (pppat), writes:

..."there is something esthetical about the mathematically symmetrical tuning (ET), but there is no question that the color palette of EBVT III makes the (sensible) pianist play the instrument in a different way."...

To me, this is quite something: for the first time a positive comment is spent about the mathematical symmetries of Modern ETs.

What may any young tuner share next?

1 – The first “conventional” ET, 12th root of two, has evolved into “variants”

2 – These ET “variants” have now been described both mathematically and geometrically, they represent Modern ETs

3 – Modern ET theory is finally practicable

4 - Modern ETs beats-symmetries can increase the performance of any piano


Thanks for the quote, Alfredo, and I do agree on what you wrote here.

I'm also been following your work (mainly due to Isaac's kind updating), and I really like your concept. I will try it out.

Which brings me to a thought. Would it be a good idea to summon this method in a separate thread? The preparatory setting, the idea of stretch and so on. These threads have had a rather vivid posting rate, and the basic information gets somewhat hidden in here.

Just a thought. Being a math person myself I find the principles for your way of tuning interesting, I would certainly try it if I got the reference litterature in a more compact form.

By the way, I think this forum is great for the curious ones. Always something new to try, new challenges, helpful hints, and so on. It's really good to have this community-style exchanging of ideas going on!
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1398092 - 03/17/10 07:55 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: pppat]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Quote:

Which brings me to a thought. Would it be a good idea to summon this method in a separate thread? The preparatory setting, the idea of stretch and so on. These threads have had a rather vivid posting rate, and the basic information gets somewhat hidden in here.


Yeah, all the good information is so difficult to find amongst all the nitpicking and defending! A summary of techniques would be so very useful, if you have the time or the inclination!

Alfredo, you did mention wanting somebody with the english skills to help you write something about this technique. Perhaps I can be this person, if you would like to work together on producing a usable tuning sequence etc.
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The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#1398782 - 03/18/10 05:04 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Phil D]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

..."Perhaps I can be this person, if you would like to work together..."...

Yes N a M, what a nice offer, thank you, I'm looking forward. I'll be back home in a week's time, otherwise I'd be willing to start tonight, were the circumstances appropiate.

..."It's really good to have this community-style exchanging of ideas going on!"...

It is my pleasure too, glad that you are curious, Pat.

Regards, a.c.
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alfredo

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#1399248 - 03/19/10 12:07 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 586
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Not a Mongoose:

Did you see the CHas Preparatory Tuning thread? I created a preliminary list of the major qualities of CHas there, and Alfredo made corrections. It might serve as a point of departure. These is a sequence of steps in that thread, too. Not a conventional (Anglo-American?) sequence, exactly, since Alfredo doesn't set a one octave bearing, but it may let you construct something closer to a conventional sequence.

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#1399356 - 03/19/10 03:28 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Jake Jackson]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 586
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Just a passing note. I just read that A.J. Ellis, whose essays on pitch and tuning are often cited here, was one of the sources for Shaw's Dr. Higgins in "Pygmalion" and thus for "My Fair Lady." Henry Sweet, who studied with Ellis, appears to have been the main source, however.

Had no idea.


Edited by Jake Jackson (03/19/10 03:35 PM)

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#1399384 - 03/19/10 04:03 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Jake Jackson]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
You should read the introduction to Pygmalion for the exact details. For that matter, it is worth reading the entire play, including the epilog.
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#1401852 - 03/23/10 07:50 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: BDB]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Bill, thank you for your explanation. I'm replying here since we talk about ET, music and theory, though I do not consider my self a musicologist.

You say:...“Yes, Alfredo, it means that he (Rameau) changed his mind about what he was interested in. The temperament he used was a modified meantone and it was VERY unequal and that was typical of his time.”...

We may as well say that Rameau changed not only his “interest”, he changed his entire approach to intervals and temperament issues.

...“Just like Bach, he decided at one point that he wanted a temperament that was more accessible to all keys.”...

You call that “accessibility” which to me sounds indefinite, I'd call it “in tune”, i.e. the sense of the intervals proportions that we can share. In other words, they were looking forward to getting reed of any “wolf”, they were simply asking for maximum euphonicity.

...“The theory of ET had always been there, since the time of Pythagoras and even before that among the ancient Chinese way before the common era.”...

This may be a simplification. The “idea” of equal size semitones is very ancient, but the practice for progressive intervals was not. Not even today, and you yourself seem to confirm. And more: the octaves then were theorized “pure”. It was only last century when some models opened to stretched theoretical octaves. Have you noticed?

...“But did you also read that just because he (Rameau) thought about ET did not mean he could tune it and he could not. Rameau was known for many temperaments, including some quasi ETs but not ET itself. He did not discover a way to tune ET accurately.”...

I'm not surprised. The temperament was based on one octave module, then theoretical octaves were “pure”, the 2:1 octave's ratio was favoured, not having been mixed with all the others, so the first ET theory was not practicable. In fact, I still don't know about which ET you talk about. And I find strange how your theoretical interest and understanding can suddenly drop, strange how you do not seem to notice the route towards the harmonic resonances of the sound whole, and strange how you do not seem to bother about a significant difference between the first ET and modern approaches.

...“It would be quite highly manipulative in my view, to take that one phrase that you found to suggest that 11 years after he wrote about the effects of interval sizes on emotions, he took a tranquilizer and tuned his pianos in ET after that.”...

It looks like the issue is bounced back (ok), but to me your quotation sounded exploitable. Anyway, why do you talk about tranquillizers? Interval size is one matter, cacophony is a different matter. Wouldn't one need a tranquillizer when surrounded by “wolfs”?

...“What I was actually looking for was a list of descriptions of the effects of various key signatures that composers themselves wrote. They are in Owen Jorgensen's publications somewhere but I thought I might find them on the web and they may be but I cam across that phrase by Rameau.”...

Today you could get more theoretical knowledge available, beyond “a phrase” you could come across.

...“It described quite well what I was referring to in the interpretation of the Schubert Impromptu. You can hear Rubinstein play it and if you like that, fine but I for one, have heard it performed in an amazing way that I will never forget.”...

Fair enough. That phrase was exploitable and you've heard an amazing version of Schubert Impromptu that you'll never forget. But in any case, what has this got to do with colour and emotions.

...“The fact that Rameau later attempted to explore ET was not pertinent although I did consider adding that I thought his change of mind was an interesting twist. That interesting twist does not change the fact that interval sizes do affect the emotions.”...

You say Rameau's “twist”, I'd say acknowledgement. Sincerely, I think that a massive quantity of clichés are being loaded onto a tuning technique, as if the technical result itself – (O) an enjoyable tuning - was not enough. In my opinion, any arbitrary out-of-tune interval can only hurt our “ear” and our emotions. How about a professional dancer wearing an non-equal costume, the one I like, skin-contact silk and jute, would that help his/her emotions?

...“Patrick may also be able to come up with some other examples as he learns to play according to temperament and show us how ET affects his mood in one way but the EBVT affects it differently.”...

May I ask you which ET? Rameau's ET? A Modern ET? Again it gets turbid and I feel confused, you talk about ET, but you continuously notice reverse well, then you would expect Patrick to tune what you call true ET, but you do not acknowledge modern ETs, maths having little to do with music (?). Is there a point I'm missing?

Regards, a.c.

.


Edited by alfredo capurso (03/23/10 09:06 AM)
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#1413439 - 04/08/10 07:43 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Bill, in Chas thread you wrote:..."However, knowing about other means of identification is useful and constructive, the same as knowing another language very thoroughly is. It is an expansion of the mind. When we do not limit ourselves to just one way of thinking, that we understand what other people say, in their own way, we become a more enlightened person."...

Leave my own way aside, when we talk about ET we are talking about "nature's way" and its ordered proportions. This can help to understand why a geometric progression is (aurally) so strongly appealing.

..."That is why I did not choose to argue with you on the other thread when I gave my opinion. Yes, I do have my own opinion about what well temperament can provide. No, I do not choose to tune any pianos in the CHAS method because I feel that it is virtually the same concept that I would have if I were to tune a piano in ET but I choose not to do that."...

The point is that Chas, Cordier's ET, Stopper's ET must not be confused with 12th root of two ET, i.e. the first model based on natural proportions. Then, whether you call Chas ET model "Chas" or "what Bill Bremmer feels being virtually the same concept that he would have if he were to tune a piano in ET", does not really matter.

And after all, the simple acknowledgment of modern variants of ET would merely prove your enlightenment. You could now start referring to your own opinions and ET in very precise terms, so avoiding confusion amongst your/our colleagues.

BTW, is saying "method for tempering" equal to saying "temperamental theory", in North American English?

Regards, a.c.

Edit: Recently I read: "some temperaments are more equal than others", quite funny, (O) very true.


Edited by alfredo capurso (04/08/10 08:00 AM)
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#1413450 - 04/08/10 08:26 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
.....

The point is that Chas, Cordier's ET, Stopper's ET must not be confused with 12th root of two ET, i.e. the first model based on natural proportions.
.....


Well, the pythagorean tuning is also based on natural proportions. It could be argued that the 12th root of 2 is not based on natural proportions because it is based on an irrational number (it cannot be described by a ratio made of whole numbers).

But the point I really want to make is that the 12th root of 2 ET is different than the others that are mentioned because it cannot be tuned aurally on a real piano. It defines pitches without regard to inharmonicity. And that is also the problem with the published CHAS theory. Although there is an aural sequence for tuning CHAS, which takes into account inharmonicity, the CHAS theory does not. If we divide “marrow from bone” CHAS theory is very similar to 12th root of 2 theory because it is based on a fixed ratio, but CHAS tuning is not. They are two different things just as 12th root of 2 theory is different from tuning ET with aurally pure octaves.

And please do not resume that deceptive "shell game" about what a theory is and what a model is.
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1413673 - 04/08/10 04:22 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: UnrightTooner]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Jeff sorry, on "deceptive games" I cannot help you.

The article linked below may better explain what I mean when I talk about nature's proportions and logarithmic scales:

Mario Livio: "The golden number: nature seems to have a sense of proportion":

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1134/is_2_112/ai_98254967/?tag=content;col1

Together with this article there is plenty of literature in the web on the same issue.

Regards, a.c.
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#1413677 - 04/08/10 04:29 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I believe that whatever the iH is we tune in it because it is the source for the real tone we hear.

It may not have to do much with the model itself. Instruments with inharmonic tones have been tuned to pure 5ths Cordier. Indeed the speed of 3ds may have raised a lot, but if the idea is to obtain relations between beats, iH is not playing a so large role in the effect, not more than with a standard tuning.
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#1414046 - 04/09/10 07:08 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
When you talk about proportions, such as semitone ratios, inharmonicity cannot be ignored in a meaningful discussion.
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1414053 - 04/09/10 07:26 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Frankly, I suggest that no. Inharmonicityy play a role in the particular tone of the instrument ,and also in its ability to be tuned more or less open (hence based on a 4:2 on beat octave)

It may play a role in a discussion, but if you try to tune with pure double or triple frequencies (in Hz) you get nowhere.


The piano have its tone, and that is what is tuned, that is what I mean. Ih is giving us problems because its uneven progressivness is in the way on pianos with less than good scales. The stretching of the intervals above the basic ih correction give us some "room" to reconciliate these, that is one of the main reason why it is used, to me.

Ih will adbsorb some of the beating and create others.

We need to "decompress" the piano, to open the tone, so we are not annoyed by iH.

But it can be also a bad habit !

If you are interested in iH and its relation to tuning, do you know what the are the iH level of grands or verticals of differnt brands , and how they change the way you tune them ?






Edited by Kamin (04/09/10 07:45 AM)
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#1414067 - 04/09/10 08:12 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Kamin
.....

If you are interested in iH and its relation to tuning, do you know what the are the iH level of grands or verticals of differnt brands , and how they change the way you tune them ?


Yes I do. I have a collection of measured iH curves and a database application to see the effects of different tuning schemes. Aurally I notice the difference in stretch when comparing 12ths to 4:2 octaves and 4:1 double octaves depending on the size of the piano. But starting in the direction of finding the best stretch for a given piano has led me in a different direction when actually tuning.

I am tuning more and more by playing three notes at a time and striving for the best sound or resonance. This also gives quite a bit of stretch. After tuning the temperament, with the color of the 4ths and 5ths I want, I then tune octaves by including the fifth down from the top note. When I can then tune 12ths, I again include the 5th from the top note. There are plenty of other checks, of course.
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Jeff Deutschle
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1421486 - 04/21/10 05:32 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: UnrightTooner]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Jeff,

You write:..."After tuning the temperament, with the color of the 4ths and 5ths I want, I then tune octaves by including the fifth down from the top note. When I can then tune 12ths, I again include the 5th from the top note."...

This sounds interesting. Could you let us listen to a recording of your tuning (slow playing of chromatic intervals)?

Have you tried Chas Preparatory Tuning?

Regards, a.c.

.
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#1421605 - 04/21/10 07:51 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
pppat Offline
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Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Yes Jeff, I agree with Alfredo - I think this is interesting, too. Any new field reports from your experiment with three notes?
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