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#1644317 - 03/19/11 07:50 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hello,

I read with interest about color and I'm also concerned about "in tune" and "resonance".

I'd like to share a live recording of Chas ET tuning:

http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/07c3ca3905_6.32MB

Your comments are welcome.

The article on Chas, recently written by Prof. Nicola Chiriano and published by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) of the University "Bocconi" (Milano), is here (Italian):

http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte

Best regards, a.


Edited by alfredo capurso (03/19/11 08:51 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

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#1644367 - 03/19/11 09:25 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Hello Alfredo,

Thank you for posting that recording. The Fazioli is truly one of the very finest pianos in the world. There is only one in my clientele but I love to tune it. It has the cleanest, purest sound of all the pianos I tune.

Your recording sounds perfect. There is certainly nothing wrong with it at all. It meets the highest expectations as far as I am concerned that any professional sounding recording should have. When the music modulates, it is as smooth as silk. Obviously, this is the way you prefer it to sound and your clients have come to expect it from you.

If I were to go to that same place, tune the same piano and have the same artist perform that music but this time in the EBVT III, there may be many people who could not distinguish the difference one from the other even though we both know that there would be deliberate and carefully constructed differences.

I can easily accept that you, personally, would dislike the EBVT III tuning. You would hear subtle and sometimes not so subtle texture differences during the modulations. The ending chords would be calmer than in your recording and there would be increased tension in other parts. To me and the people who like the EBVT III, that is the very difference which they have grown to like and appreciate for what it offers to the music.

You certainly have the advantage in that your style of ET tuning is the epitome of standard practice. However, it is not a question of ET being "right" and anything else being "wrong". It is not a question either about any non-equal temperament being "out of tune" and only ET is "in tune". They are all "out of tune" one way or another. One cannot even say that ET is the "least" out of tune temperament although some may well perceive it that way. It is all out of tune to the same slight degree. There is no harmony that is either more consonant nor dissonant than the other. Some people say that is the advantage of ET whil others say that it is a disadvantage.

Whether one prefers strictly ET or definitely does not like ET is a matter of personal preference. People should be allowed to have their preferences and not be told that one is "right" and the other is "wrong" even if we each may find our own personal justifications for our preferences.

Soon, there will be made available on Patrick's thread some more comparison recordings. Opinions both ways will be invited. What will not be welcome are rude and condescending remarks that come from no foundation or that stand alone as the listener's opinion.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1644411 - 03/19/11 11:06 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
The article on Chas, recently written by Prof. Nicola Chiriano and published by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) of the University "Bocconi" (Milano), is here (Italian):
http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
Best regards, a.

I wish my Italian was better, because the translation that Google gives me of even the first sentence is quite nonsensical:

"In 1691 the German organist Andreas Werckmeister found an ingenious way to tune the instruments in a way closer than ever to an equal temperament."

Kees

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#1644423 - 03/19/11 11:32 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Mexico City
Mr. Capurso,

Superb tuning. thumb
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1644430 - 03/20/11 12:00 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: DoelKees]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
The article on Chas, recently written by Prof. Nicola Chiriano and published by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) of the University "Bocconi" (Milano), is here (Italian):
http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
Best regards, a.

I wish my Italian was better, because the translation that Google gives me of even the first sentence is quite nonsensical:

"In 1691 the German organist Andreas Werckmeister found an ingenious way to tune the instruments in a way closer than ever to an equal temperament."

Kees


Kees,

I was able to have Google translate the entire document with a couple of clicks. Not every phrase is translated with complete grammatical accuracy but you will still understand the text.

I'll do you, Alfredo and everyone a favor by posting this Boxnet link to the document as I stored it in my documents file:

http://www.box.net/shared/p544e4hz6o

Just for everyone's information, as I read the document, the word "mesotoniche" is not translated but it is obvious to me that it is what we call "meantone". In the math equations, the word for "Pythagorean" appears as "Pitagoriche". I will not comment on the article at this time as I am still studying it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1644437 - 03/20/11 12:09 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Thanks Bill, but I still get the same erroneous first sentence from your link.

Kees

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#1644445 - 03/20/11 12:17 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: DoelKees]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Hmm, I think you may find the entire document to fit that description.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1644491 - 03/20/11 02:15 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3722
Loc: Rockford, IL
That was gorgeous, Alfredo! Thank you for posting this recording. What a beautiful sound, and the performance was stellar!
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1644496 - 03/20/11 02:39 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2244
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hello Alfredo,

Thanks for posting that...lovely sound and performance.........unisons are so clean too...hopefully, I can get that kind of stability in the future.

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#1645014 - 03/21/11 01:10 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 568
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Alfredo,

The link to your recording has already expired. Please post it again.

EDIT: The download is fine now.

Lovely tuning and playing, Alfredo. Thanks for posting this.


Edited by Jake Jackson (03/21/11 01:28 PM)

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#1645593 - 03/22/11 12:58 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Jake Jackson]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Sounds good, but the last CE would sound a lot better when it was more in tune as in an UT.

Kees

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#1645686 - 03/22/11 07:18 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hello,

thank you All for your feedbacks, I can only be happy if that recording sounds nice to you too.

Thank you, Bill, for your comment.

…"Whether one prefers strictly ET or definitely does not like ET is a matter of personal preference. People should be allowed to have their preferences and not be told that one is "right" and the other is "wrong" even if we each may find our own personal justifications for our preferences."…

Definitely you are right, but I still wonder how that "one" will define his/her preferences. Think of an orchestra or a choir, I still believe that, when it is the case, we all can recognize an higher degree of harmony, we could say if someone is singing out of tune. Why? My answer is that we can share a sense of proportion, energy and fusion, all being part of our inner and outer nature.

As I could say, in my opinion EBVT may sound better than many ET attempts, the latter sometime resulting in a...UT stronger (as you say) than many others. But then I'm still afraid we talk about two (or more?) different ETs. I think you talk - in abstract - about an ETD stretched variant of 12 root of 2, which in practice can only result in a UT (or worse) precisely for two reasons: firstly, because it is based on some iH approximate models (ask Robert Scott for his latest parameters - and remember Stopper's?...proper consideration of inharmonicity...); secondly, because - in my experience - there is no model, there is no tuning-form that we can aim at directly. It's like when we want to through something in a bin while moving in a car...we'll have to anticipate our through. Always.

Today, my wish is to share the correct ET geometry (for our semitonal scale) and to suggest the correct practice (preparatory curves). Perhaps too much of a change, both in theory and in actual tuning, but for achieving any form we'll have to lay down a ready-to-appear tuning.

To make it short, I would certainly expect people have their preferences, as long as they/we all know what we are talking about. And when I think of theory and practice, I'd say: in practice we can only - if not for one second - experience UTs. Nature itself is dynamic and...very shy.

Best regards, a.c.


Chas tuning mp3 - live recording on Fazioli
http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/07c3ca3905_6.32MB

CHAS Tuning mp3 - Amatorial recording on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. - Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo - 2009, Italy:
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Article by Prof. Nicola Chiriano - published by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) - University "Bocconi" - Milano, 2010 - (Italian):
http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte

Discussion (PW):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1194874/1.html

Approach, method and sequence (PW):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1383831/1.html
_________________________
alfredo

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#1645745 - 03/22/11 09:46 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Alfredo,

I appreciate both yours and Bernhard's perspectives. Mine is based (very briefly) on the idea of the Cycle of Fifths having prime importance to harmony. This was the obvious reason why people chose something else than ET in the 19th and 19th Centuries, even if they could at least approximate ET. They WANTED to hear a distinction in key signature.

The modern piano is more unforgiving in this aspect, especially when it is required to play music from all eras. In general, a Victorian style Well Temperament restores just a hint of that distinction. In my experience, after nearly 20 years of developing a Victorian style WT, it is as far as one can go with a Cycle of Fifths based temperament and yet have it found to be acceptable to the greatest majority. The limitations are that there still remain a very few who have become accustomed to ET and do not want any distinction in key signature. On the other end, there are those who do not find enough distinction in it.

I hope you will listen to the recordings on the ET vs. EBVT III field test thread and whether or not you decide to reveal your guesses publicly, I am sure that with these examples of very complex music, you will have a great amount of difficulty in distinguishing one from the other.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1645780 - 03/22/11 11:16 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Thanks Bill.

Would you drive me towards your point? Perhaps:

- We need a Victorian style, so that we can enjoy the "distinction in key signature" and distinguish it from ET.

- We need a Victorian style that we cannot distinguish from ET.

- We ought to somehow honor WTs conceptual expectations, those concerning "distinction in key signature", never mind if - in practice - it sounds like some quasi-ET.

- We can all adopt EBVT and acknowledge that it is exactly "as far as we can go" from ET, and most probably even a pro-tuner "will have a great amount of difficulty in distinguishing one from the other".

Or? a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1646205 - 03/22/11 11:28 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Alfredo,

good to see you back here. I have actually missed your philosophical approach and your seamless connection between your passion and human life in general.

May I offer yet another alternative?

- We could benefit from a temperament of the Victorian style tradition because, although it might be hard (and sometimes seemingly impossible) to tell it apart from ET even as an analytical listener, still the music might come out in a different way compared to when it is played on the same instrument in another tuning. EBVT III does influence the performer quite a bit.

....................

During the last year I've tuned only EBVT III for concert performances - solo piano as well as chamber music settings. Even a jazz trio with a pianist I figured would like that sound.

Now, musicians have a totally different approach to piano tuning smile Heck, I myself have it when I switch into concert mode and start playing.

Nobody dwells too much upon stretch, beat rates and other things related to our everyday tuners' life. The pianists care about the sound of the piano as a whole.

During the last two months, two highly famous artists have labeled the Steinway D in our concert hall as being one of the best instruments in our country. The Yamaha U3 in one of our old wooden churches is suddenly also top quality, and the same goes for our C5 and C7 in the small halls at the conservatory.

Bill's tuning temperament make the instruments sound in a way that is highly pleasing to many a musician's ear. In fact, I have heard nothing negative about it this far. I was nervous about going "alternative" at first, but every concert confirms my initial hunch as being right: A small town needs something unique, and right now - starting last year - we are slowly but steadily laying ground for special piano music performances.

-------------------

This as input to your dialogue with Bill. Getting back to the music you posted, it is remarkably good tuning, indeed. I really like the instrument, too, which Fazioli model is it? And who is playing?

If it sounds THAT good on a low quality mp3 (128 kbps), I bet the original recording is pristine.

Alfredo, keep hanging around here a bit more. You are needed here... smile



Edited by pppat (03/23/11 03:11 PM)
Edit Reason: grammar
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1646218 - 03/22/11 11:52 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2244
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Pat, that is exactly the way I felt about EBVTIII when I first heard it on my piano. It's hard to put into words, but the piano seems to have a quality of richness and depth that is somewhat absent from ET. The musician in me likes what I hear. I miss it when it's not there, as in my recent efforts at tuning ET.

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#1646242 - 03/23/11 12:52 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
GPM: I understand that completely, because you play - and care for - your piano just the way any true pianist would do smile
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1646358 - 03/23/11 08:07 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hello Patrick,

Thank you for your feedback, that is a concert Fazioli 278. I asked for that recording because it was home-standard: one mic. + pc, that was all. And sure, if "simple" equipment is used, the product will be quite "naked", good for basic evaluations.

You write:..., still the music might come out in a different way compared to when it is played on the same instrument in another tuning. EBVT III does influence the performer quite a bit."...

No doubts about that. I think we all do what we do so that the piano sounds in a special, unique way, "a different way compared to…another tuning", hopefully for the joy of the performer. But I don't think that is the point. I think the question is "objective reasons for supremacy", both in theoretical and practical terms. And this is relevant when you want to go from "personal" to "universal".

..."Even a jazz trio with a pianist I figured would like that sound."...

I guess you are right.

..."Bill's tuning temperament make the instruments sound in a way that is highly pleasing to many a musician's ear."...

Bill says that himself and for me that is true enough. But one point is: what is the reason? You mention "alternative", but alternative to what? A poor tuning? A stronger WT? A quasi-ET?

On the other hand, how would you justify Bill's crusade against ET?
Is ET-tuning homogeneous worldwide?
Can "as far as one can go from ET" be objective?
How far can you go from EBVT, in one direction or the other?
How many cents deviation from ET are enough for the next XVT that claims supremacy?

I would not mind being told what is best at a logical and proveable level.

Regards, a.c.

Chas tuning mp3 - live recording on Fazioli
http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/07c3ca3905_6.32MB

CHAS Tuning mp3 - Amatorial recording on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. - Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo - 2009, Italy:
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Article by Prof. Nicola Chiriano - published by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) - University "Bocconi" - Milano, 2010 - (Italian):
http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte




Edited by alfredo capurso (03/23/11 08:12 AM)
_________________________
alfredo

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#1646441 - 03/23/11 10:42 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1632
Loc: Colorado
Alfredo,
A most excellent recording of a superbly tuned piano. Great to see you here again!

Glen
_________________________


March piano audio
https://app.box.com/s/evl3yyp1kj52ve8l069u


A Bit of YouTube

PTG Associate Member

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#1646539 - 03/23/11 01:15 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 568
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Now, Alfredo. You I know that I love your work, but I'm not sure that Bill has claimed that EBVT III is the only temperament worth tuning. He's praised CHas and Bernard Stopper's work and my impression is that he likes the well temp that David P. tunes in the videos from Emerson College in England. Aren't they apples and oranges, really, a perfect ET and a well-temp, with entirely different intentions behind them?

You have created a lovely sound. Surely the temperaments that Chopin wrote and played in, insofar as we can guess them, and further explorations of well temperaments can exist side by side with recent developments.


Edited by Jake Jackson (03/23/11 04:48 PM)

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#1646594 - 03/23/11 03:20 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: pppat
GPM: I understand that completely, because you play - and care for - your piano just the way any true pianist would do smile


Due to the sensitive nature of this subject (ET/EBVT III) on PW lately, I will hasten to add that this was no judging on my part - just an appreciation of GPM's passion for the instrument and the music produced on it. I love the ambiguity of the verb "play", and there couldn't be a better spot for it than in that sentence smile
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1647114 - 03/24/11 10:34 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hello Glen, thanks for your words. How are you doing with your tuning?

Hello Jake, thanks for your comment. There might be something about my English, or perhaps my style, that does'nt help. In which case I apologize. Personally, I'm very much in favor of exploration and development.

…."I'm not sure that Bill has claimed that EBVT III is the only temperament worth tuning."…

Well, how do you translate the "one size fits all" claim? But even this would not be the question. What I would like to argue about is "objective reasons", in concrete and logical terms.

…"He's praised CHas and Bernard Stopper's work"…

And me too, I appreciate Bill's work very much. Beyond that…

…"my impression is that he likes the well temp that David P. tunes in the videos from Emerson College in England."…

I've missed those videos. Are they available?

…"Aren't they apples and oranges, really, a perfect ET and a well-temp, with entirely different intentions behind them?"…

Well, there is a point where any difference is lost and only "intentions" are left. Can we talk about that? So, the questions I've posted (above) are real. Would'nt you expect an answer? For what I read, some people in this forum like talking about ET. Would you say they have acknowledged ET recent developments?

Best regards, a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1647140 - 03/24/11 11:18 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Alfredo,

I certainly never claimed that the EBVT III is the only temperament worth tuning. Even though I tune it most often, there are several others that I use from time to time: 1/7 Comma Meantone, 1/7 Comma Meantone with one pure fifth, Representative 18th Century Well Temperament (which uses the same sequence as the EBVT except that the four initial RBI's are at 4 beats per second instead of 6; the A#-F fifth also remains pure), 1/9 Comma Meantone, 2.5 and 2.6 cents narrow fifths Meantones, Rameau-Rousseau-Hall 18th Century Modified Meantone and a variation of the latter which has the CE M3 at 1 cent width instead of pure and finally, the Vallotti 18th Century Well Temperament.

Any of the above could be used with any kind of music and thus could be considered "one size fits all". In my writing, I have said that ET is apparently considered to be the only temperament which fits that description by those who advocate it. It was Helmholtz's theory. My take on that is that Herr Helmholtz saw all of the many variations and claims of preference and provided his own solution which has an undeniable logic to it from the point of view of an arbitrator.

For example, if there is a court case where there are 12 people having a claim to a certain sum of money but each presents an unsupportable claim, the judge affords each claimant an equal amount while disregarding the value which each claimant had presented as being rightful to them.

The decision is deemed fair but each claimant is equally dissatisfied as much as they are satisfied. The analogy to music is that the judge (Helmholtz, who was a scientist, not a musician) disregarded the value of the key signature.

Other music theorists indeed thought of ET very long ago, including Werkmeister, Neidhardt, Mersenne, Rameau and Marpurg but none of them ever produced a workable way to tune it. Even if they had, according to historical documents, ET was not what musicians of the 17th, 18th and 19th Century wanted to use, so they didn't. They preferred the distinctions in key color that well temperaments, modified meantones and mild meantones provided to the music that was commonly played at that time over the neutrality afforded by ET.

Only in the 19th Century and beyond did music progress to the point of modulations that were not seen in earlier music. Beethoven was perhaps the first to present these kinds of musical "surprises" after he had lost all ability to hear and therefore his mind became more theoretical. His later compositions were very avant guard for their time.

So, in these late 19th Century and early 20th Century pieces for the piano (which, as we know it) did not develop until the very late 19th Century), there was a natural gravitation towards ET. The assumption today is that the music of Chopin, Debussy, Ravel, Gershwin, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff and any others you may care to think of, all required ET.

This is actively being disproved today by the technicians who provide non-equal temperaments to the artists who have embraced them for what they offer and perform any and all types of music from any and all periods on them. That is not to say that people may still have an opinion about such uses as we have seen here on this forum.

A common phrase in our culture is, "Some like it hot, some like it not."
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1647168 - 03/24/11 11:55 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 568
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Alfredo and all,

Well, as a wiser soul here has said, we all sometimes reveal that we believe our own child to be the most beautiful, but maybe we can continue to explore.

Here's a link to an afternoon video with an 1880's Bechstein that David tuned to his well temperament. You may not like it. That's OK. The pianist, Adolfo Barabino, did not know this piano, which is not perfect:

http://www.youtube.com/user/latribe#p/search/10/ZH2IXOfnBqw

I don't want to seem to promote the thread about these videos, which I started after running across them by accident and then writing David to ask him to join the forum to discuss the temperament, but here's the link:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1590814/1.html

I'd actually like to hear what you hear in some of these pieces, Alfredo, and to hear what David would say about the recordings you've made using CHas. I won't be offended or hurt if you dislike them.

David's focus seems to be on exploring variants of the temperaments in which pieces may have been composed, to try to recreate, possibly, the original experience and just to listen to the results. (The question of what temperament Chopin and others composed and played in is of course impossible to answer, although it apparently wasn't ET. We're left trying out the later meantones and well temperaments and temperaments ordinaire and quasi-ET's and listening to the result. A pleasant guessing game, in a sense, but one that can reveal new beauties in the music, so the matter becomes serious. (Beauty is a serious matter?)

By the way, have you considered doing a video or two? How about the Chopin Nocturne Op 9, no 2? Not as a way to create a competition between CHas and a well temperament, but just to provide a reference point. Or an audio recording of the nocturne? Might be interesting, if any time opens up in the next few weeks. I'l like to hear this piece in EBVT III, too. In the Stopper temperament? Does it seem like a good idea to have a well-known piece recorded in the various temperaments as a reference point for discussions? Not as a way to argue for which is best, but as a way to discuss the exact effect on a single piece, instead of generally discussing the effects of a tuning.

Good to hear from you again. I'm looking forward to hearing more things recorded with CHas. (What has become of Kamin?)


Edited by Jake Jackson (03/24/11 12:48 PM)

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#1647402 - 03/24/11 07:52 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Alfredo
Originally Posted By: pppat
Bill's tuning temperament make the instruments sound in a way that is highly pleasing to many a musician's ear.

Bill says that himself and for me that is true enough. But one point is: what is the reason? You mention "alternative", but alternative to what? A poor tuning? A stronger WT? A quasi-ET?


Alternative to any true ET. No matter which stretch, as long as the ET common denominator is fulfilled: Any 3rd beats faster than all the 3rds below it. Any 6th beats faster than all the 6ths below it.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1647457 - 03/24/11 09:35 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I don't intend sarcasm by saying this but I think of it as an alternative to the Helmoltz arbitration or an alternative to conventional wisdom.

Alfredo, it is a shame that you could not also be a part of the 2011 PTG convention. Perhaps you could join us next year? Ryan Sowers will be the director and he would be the person to address.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1647536 - 03/25/11 12:00 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
For what I read, some people in this forum like talking about ET. Would you say they have acknowledged ET recent developments?

Depends what you mean by "recent developments". I am not aware of any "recent developments" since about 1440.

Kees

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#1648432 - 03/26/11 04:14 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Hi!

I'm looking forward to the recordings here and Jake, thanks for drawing attention to the other thread mentioning my recordings with Adolfo Barabino and friends. Probably as a result of this, someone wrote to me on YouTube:
Quote:
The Chopin preludes in unequal temperament practically had me in tears. It's incredible, really.


The bottom line on temperament is in my mind that musicians once expected much purer intervals than we now hear at least in the home keys and that they used the others to effect. How much was a matter of fact and degree and I've heard it said that there is a fine line between a good temperament, and being out of tune. Whilst fine for the Harpsichord Kirnberger III is brilliant, on the piano I'm not happy that it's not a step too far, so I use a temperament based on Werkmeister pushed as far as I believe one can go. Temperament should have a musical purpose if it is to be part of the music, and not merely to be nice, like treacle.

It's certainly worth experimenting with the temperaments that go in the Werkmeister direction.

Best wishes

David P
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1648800 - 03/27/11 09:31 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Alfredo,

I just listened to your recent recording again, and I have the same feeling about it that I had when Isaac (Kamin) posted his CHAS tuning (of bach/siloti, I think). This is the kind of ET I'd like to learn how to tune. Would you teach me how to do it?
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1648840 - 03/27/11 10:54 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Indeed. I will ask Ryan Sowers to work on an invitation for Alfredo Capurso to present the CHAS temperament and tuning at the 2012 convention. If Alfredo is able to accept, I am sure we can find someone to work out the language barrier problems. For all of the difficulty there has been in trying to understand Alfredo's concepts in writing, the recording speaks for itself in the quality of his work.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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