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Hi, I have been listening to many recordings and performances o of Rachmaninoff's piano concerto no.2. I have noticed how difficult the opening chords are to play if the hands are on the small side. There seems to be various ways to play these. What I find interesting is that some pianists play them without rolling them , or breaking them. Is it npossible that some actually cheat by missing certain notes out of the chords to achieve this?
I have average sized hands and I can play them without rolling. The largest interval in the right hand is an octave, and the largest interval in the left hand is a tenth, both of which are playable by most people.
But you're right, I have heard people roll them, which must mean either they have small hands or it's an artistic choice.
Rachmininoff had big hands ... enabling what some might regard as a "freakish" large stretch ... I bet he played those chords without batting an eyelid ... but tough if you've got small hands ... rolling those chords becomes the only other option ... unfortunately, leaving notes out does not meet the bill.
I have average sized hands and I can play them without rolling. The largest interval in the right hand is an octave, and the largest interval in the left hand is a tenth, both of which are playable by most people.
But you're right, I have heard people roll them, which must mean either they have small hands or it's an artistic choice.
I disagree that "average sized hands" can play these opening chords without rolling, though of course it depends what you mean by average.
It's true that the largest LH and RH intervals are a tenth and octave respectively, but that doesn't tell the whole story: the devil is in the inner notes. I can play some 10ths, and I can certainly play octaves. But the second RH chord involves a Db-C stretch using 2 and 5, which I can't come close to. Similarly, the LH has some chords I can't play, whose outer notes alone I can reach fine.
When talking about hand size, the emphasis is usually on the reach between 1 and 5 ("can you reach a 10th", etc.), but I think the size of the hand is actually too complicated to be measured by a single number.
Rachmaninov had big hands ... enabling what some might regard as a "freakish" large stretch ... I bet he played those chords without batting an eyelid
Right, but in his recording he chooses to break the chords, most certainly for musical reasons.
I can take those chords (barely!) without breaking, but IMO they sound better broken or rolled as per Rachmaninov's example.
Umm, maybe there are different takes from his recording session with the Philly orchestra, but in my recording I don't think he's rolling them in the slightest.
Umm, maybe there are different takes from his recording session with the Philly orchestra, but in my recording I don't think he's rolling them in the slightest.
No, he isn't. (What was I smoking?) I must have been channeling the Katchen recording which certainly does break them to marvelous results.
But perhaps I read somewhere that at least occasionally Rachmaninov did break the opening chords? Or am I totally deluded?
It's true that the largest LH and RH intervals are a tenth and octave respectively, but that doesn't tell the whole story: the devil is in the inner notes. I can play some 10ths, and I can certainly play octaves. But the second RH chord involves a Db-C stretch using 2 and 5, which I can't come close to. Similarly, the LH has some chords I can't play, whose outer notes alone I can reach fine.
For this one, you use the thumb on the C and Db. Even if I could reach it with my index finger, I wouldn't risk the injury.
I have average sized hands and I can play them without rolling. The largest interval in the right hand is an octave, and the largest interval in the left hand is a tenth, both of which are playable by most people.
But you're right, I have heard people roll them, which must mean either they have small hands or it's an artistic choice.
I disagree that "average sized hands" can play these opening chords without rolling, though of course it depends what you mean by average.
It's true that the largest LH and RH intervals are a tenth and octave respectively, but that doesn't tell the whole story: the devil is in the inner notes. I can play some 10ths, and I can certainly play octaves. But the second RH chord involves a Db-C stretch using 2 and 5, which I can't come close to. Similarly, the LH has some chords I can't play, whose outer notes alone I can reach fine.
When talking about hand size, the emphasis is usually on the reach between 1 and 5 ("can you reach a 10th", etc.), but I think the size of the hand is actually too complicated to be measured by a single number.
-J
I agree , I have the same problem with the second chord. Playing the Dflat and C together without splitting the chords , would need to be a contortionist . I have tried double laying the two notes with the thumb but I don't feel secure with this. There must be a technique that I am missing as, my hands are not small. I can also reach a 10th. It is the twisting to accommodate those middle notes that I cannot do !.
I have average sized hands and I can play them without rolling. The largest interval in the right hand is an octave, and the largest interval in the left hand is a tenth, both of which are playable by most people.
But you're right, I have heard people roll them, which must mean either they have small hands or it's an artistic choice.
I disagree that "average sized hands" can play these opening chords without rolling, though of course it depends what you mean by average.
It's true that the largest LH and RH intervals are a tenth and octave respectively, but that doesn't tell the whole story: the devil is in the inner notes. I can play some 10ths, and I can certainly play octaves. But the second RH chord involves a Db-C stretch using 2 and 5, which I can't come close to. Similarly, the LH has some chords I can't play, whose outer notes alone I can reach fine.
When talking about hand size, the emphasis is usually on the reach between 1 and 5 ("can you reach a 10th", etc.), but I think the size of the hand is actually too complicated to be measured by a single number.
-J
No doubt, the inner notes make the chords more difficult, but I really don't have an issue playing them personally. My reach is a tenth (major), and not a note further, but I can play every one of these chords very easily, even the second one many have cited.
Umm, maybe there are different takes from his recording session with the Philly orchestra, but in my recording I don't think he's rolling them in the slightest.
No, he isn't. (What was I smoking?) I must have been channeling the Katchen recording which certainly does break them to marvelous results.
But perhaps I read somewhere that at least occasionally Rachmaninov did break the opening chords? Or am I totally deluded?
I also remember hearing a recording where rachmaninoff rolls the chords. Or maybe we are talking about this recording, where he plays the bass note first, then the rest of the chord. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8l37utZxMQ
Interestingly enough, the only other person I've heard play it like that is Helene Grimaud.
I looked at those opening chords, and there is no way I can grab them. I have smallish hands, but actually a good stretch. But those chords are so involved.
My son, on the other hand finds that opening quite simple .... trivial even. He just plunks them with extreme ease. Grrrrrr.
I have average sized hands and I can play them without rolling. The largest interval in the right hand is an octave, and the largest interval in the left hand is a tenth, both of which are playable by most people.
But you're right, I have heard people roll them, which must mean either they have small hands or it's an artistic choice.
I disagree that "average sized hands" can play these opening chords without rolling, though of course it depends what you mean by average.
It's true that the largest LH and RH intervals are a tenth and octave respectively, but that doesn't tell the whole story: the devil is in the inner notes. I can play some 10ths, and I can certainly play octaves. But the second RH chord involves a Db-C stretch using 2 and 5, which I can't come close to. Similarly, the LH has some chords I can't play, whose outer notes alone I can reach fine.
When talking about hand size, the emphasis is usually on the reach between 1 and 5 ("can you reach a 10th", etc.), but I think the size of the hand is actually too complicated to be measured by a single number.
-J
No doubt, the inner notes make the chords more difficult, but I really don't have an issue playing them personally. My reach is a tenth (major), and not a note further, but I can play every one of these chords very easily, even the second one many have cited.
And my reach is also a tenth, and yet I cannot come close to playing them.
Hence my main point: The single number describing what you can "reach" is insufficient for measuring hand size. It also has to with what you can do with the fingers in between.
And my reach is also a tenth, and yet I cannot come close to playing them.
Hence my main point: The single number describing what you can "reach" is insufficient for measuring hand size. It also has to with what you can do with the fingers in between.
This is a very interesting discussion.
I can easily take a 10th (but nothing larger), and I have never thought that the opening chords in Rachmaninov 2 would be difficult for someone with that hand size. I just went to the piano, and yes, I can play those chords unbroken. But I do now see that there are other factors involved.
Incidentally, being able to stretch a 10th is invaluable for an organist in playing post-Bach repertoire. Franck probably had hands the size of Rachmaninov, though his music is almost sadistically difficult even with a large hand. The Prière is nasty.
The thing about the opening chords is that they produce the most marvelous, mysterious atmosphere, completely unlike anything in any other piano concerto. But that mystery depends on how they are played and the tempo. Too fast (Hough - 10 seconds) or too slow (Pogorelich - 58 seconds) and all the mystery is gone. I think rolling the chords can lessen the atmosphere of mystery, and breaking them can also, but to a smaller degree.
For many years my favorite performance has been the Cliburn-Reiner recording, but my new favorite is the Zimerman-Ozawa. This is a stupendous performance, far better than any of the others I've heard. And listen to those opening chords!
Mel
"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get, only what you are expecting to give, which is everything. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn
...but my new favorite is the Zimerman-Ozawa. This is a stupendous performance, far better than any of the others I've heard. And listen to those opening chords!
Here it is:
Indeed, you are correct, though with due respect I found the opening chords a bit too slow... at least on an initial hearing.
But after that... well things catch fire and this is a performance to contend with.
This van Cliburn recording is my favourite one, I think. It's sublime.
Algernon: I hope, Cecily, I shall not offend you if I state quite frankly and openly that you seem to me to be in every way the visible personification of absolute perfection.
But let us not forget Katchen/Solti. A knock-out performance for the ages, one that meant so much to me as a love-sick young teenager. (LOL)
I used to be the same about Julius Katchen's version in my youth, but it doesn't bear close comparison with some of the great performances we have of the concerto today as it now scrappy with its approximate runs and near misses in some of its passages IMO .
It would be nice to known how well known professionals on the circuit approach these opening chords , and how they would advise someone like myself who cannot seem to be able to get those awkward chordsnwithout breaking or rolling them.
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