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#1867379 - 03/23/12 06:11 PM Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3342
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
OK, you asked for it you got it. Same pianist, same music, same recording gear, same spot in the the same room. Same technician as well.

In this corner, we have a model 205 Steingraeber taking on the mighty golden age rebuilt Steinway B.

Compare, contrast, listen and hopefully enjoy! The Ravel is gorgeous.

Actually, feel free to listen to each a few times as you might notice new subtleties with both pianos with each listen. Be careful though, you will fall deeply in love with the Ravel. smile

Sorry, but both pianos are sold and in happy homes for quite a while guys!




_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1867385 - 03/23/12 06:25 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
ScottM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 556
That's really interesting. The Steinway sounds more mellow, which sometimes works well and sometimes not. It sounds like an old piano to me, although a very nice one. The Steingraeber comes across as cleaner and brighter, but the bass is amazing - with more depth and resonance than the Steinway can muster. Very interesting.


Edited by ScottM (03/23/12 06:58 PM)
_________________________
Scott

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#1867398 - 03/23/12 06:44 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Karl Watson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 375
I've listened to both performances twice. Eric Himy is such a wonderful pianist.

Your pianos: it's impossible to rate one better than the other. I might prefer one or the other, but both are gorgeous. Your restoration of the B is world-class.

The colour is clearly different on both instruments. So glad the that B sounds like an American B with a slightly restrained treble, not at all over done. I dislike rebuilding jobs that seek to transform the character and basic nature of the instrument. That is really a dream B.

The Steingraeber seems to have every positive quality of middle-European piano building with none of the possible drawbacks. It's apparent to me that the action of the 205 is wonderfully responsive.

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#1867421 - 03/23/12 07:16 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8583
Loc: Georgia, USA
Well, I'm not sure just how "cultured" ( smile ) I am when it comes to assessing pianos, but I liked the Steinway B better; though the Steingraeber may have been a little cleaner and brighter, as ScottM said.

It was refreshing to see and hear a well prepped piano! (Two of them, actually smile )

Good job, Keith!

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1867467 - 03/23/12 09:09 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
j&j Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 445
Loc: Southwest
Eric Himy's performance is breath-taking. I've listened to both performances twice, although it loses so much through PC speakers! If I have to pick a favorite and can't be there to really hear and feel the Ravel live, I think it would have to be the Steingraeber. I loved it's bass and it did have a slightly cleaner treble. Wonderful rebuild on the Steinway - congratulations on the spectacular work! If only I could play that well...maybe if I can live to 250 and practice 6 hours a day.
_________________________
J & J
Yahama C3 PE
Casio Privia PX-330
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." Pablo Picasso

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#1867505 - 03/23/12 10:20 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
PaintedPostDave Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 555
Loc: Upstate New York
Don't have a horse in this race but it always a pleasant experience listening to (and looking at) two beautifully prepared pianos. Thanks, Keith D. Kerman.
_________________________
Dave Koenig
Yamaha M1A console
1927 Knabe 7' 8" grand
https://sites.google.com/site/analysisofsoundsandvibrations/

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#1867522 - 03/23/12 11:03 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3485
Loc: US
Two gorgeous pianos! and wonderful performances. I have to admit I like the soulful quality of the Steinway B better but they are both beautiful.


Sophia

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#1867525 - 03/23/12 11:17 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: sophial]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1732
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
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http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP4, CP5 (home use) , RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers

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#1867586 - 03/24/12 02:59 AM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1974
Loc: Philadelphia area
Top shelf pianos and top shelf playing always add up to enjoyable recordings. Thanks! I'm sure both pianos were not on the floor for very long.

I wonder how much time the pianist spent with each piano? Both pianos seemed to possess further levels of nuance that might be realized by being more familiar with the keyboard.

The balance of the Steingraeber supports the tone in a way that frees up the player to use dynamic and tempo contrasts. I enjoyed the clarity of the lower tenor and bass sections.

The right hand notes (money notes) of the Steinway had impressive dynamic expression in a rich warm tone. Supported by a bass and tenor that crescendo waves of layered textures typical in Steinway pianos, typical yet always impressive. My only reservation is that over the last few years, I've found myself becoming less tolerant of the muddy Steinway bass; We can't have everything?

I'm not a little league coach, but both are winners in my book.

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#1867639 - 03/24/12 08:35 AM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4981
Loc: boston north
I hope that we are not suppose to 'chose' one over the other!

Both spectacular, although different.

And Mr. Himy plays so beautifully. Always! Yup, falling in love with that Ravel.

BTW, there is a higher setting I would suggest listening/watching on. It comes up on you tube as 360P but will go up to 720p for better quality. Especially nice when viewing in the large screen.

Thank goodness for my Boston speakers on the PC!

Thank you, KK. Thank you Eric!
_________________________
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

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#1867676 - 03/24/12 10:41 AM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1550
The steingraeber has the clean clear sparkle..but the "B" has that vintage old sound
which I prefer..and another thing I noticed, his playing displayed a lighter touch on the Steinway B..he used a more forceful finger depression on the Steingraeber..

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#1867731 - 03/24/12 01:06 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Karl Watson]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3342
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Originally Posted By: Karl Watson

Your pianos: it's impossible to rate one better than the other. I might prefer one or the other, but both are gorgeous. Your restoration of the B is world-class.

So glad the that B sounds like an American B with a slightly restrained treble, not at all over done. I dislike rebuilding jobs that seek to transform the character and basic nature of the instrument. That is really a dream B.


Thanks Karl. Although we are known as a kind of hot rod shop, our first priority is to maintain the authentic voice of the piano we are rebuilding, if it has a voice worth saving, and this one certainly did. It is nice to know that came accross.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1867734 - 03/24/12 01:10 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Dave B]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3342
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Top shelf pianos and top shelf playing always add up to enjoyable recordings. Thanks! I'm sure both pianos were not on the floor for very long.

I wonder how much time the pianist spent with each piano? Both pianos seemed to possess further levels of nuance that might be realized by being more familiar with the keyboard.


You get an A+ for perception here. Eric pretty much sat down cold and played. We had both pianos set up to be exceptionally user friendly, and Eric is quick to adapt.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1867737 - 03/24/12 01:19 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Bob Newbie]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3342
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Originally Posted By: Bob Newbie
The steingraeber has the clean clear sparkle..but the "B" has that vintage old sound
which I prefer..and another thing I noticed, his playing displayed a lighter touch on the Steinway B..he used a more forceful finger depression on the Steingraeber..


I had to go back and watch again, but I think you're right. One of the hallmarks of that B is that it works really well at soft volumes and you can see Eric kind of getting into that soft sound world. Also, there is a bit less mass in our Steinway B action then in the Steingraeber action although both are balanced nearly identically.
Neat observation!
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1867742 - 03/24/12 01:28 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Eric Gloo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1253
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
What fun! For this particular piece, I prefer the Steinway B. I hear a smoothness in tone throughout that made me concentrate more on the music than the piano. I like the mid-range tone of the Steingraeber, but think the upper treble is a bit too crisp for the Ravel. I'm sure on different styles of music, I'd prefer the Steinbraeber, too.
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#1867760 - 03/24/12 02:21 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1299
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
Mr Himy's performance on the Steinway B seemed a perfect union between the performer and the instrument. I wonder which of the two pianos he preferred playing for this Ravel piece?
Both pianos are fabulous, but I preferred the Steinway for its beautiful purity of tone and refinement of sound.

Thank you Keith for this intriguing comparison. You made that Steinway B into a heavenly sounding piano.

Robert.


Edited by Robert 45 (03/24/12 02:30 PM)

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#1867785 - 03/24/12 03:51 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
I think the Steingraeber sounded like it was trying harder to be a standout. The Steinway just seemed to know it was a Steinway and let the chips fall where they may. This would be more interesting if the audio was captured on a dedicated audio recorder with quality microphones. The video sound was good but not great. There was lots of hiss.
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#1867829 - 03/24/12 06:06 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
RJ10 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/12
Posts: 44
Loc: Chicago, IL
Steingraeber does it for me. Crisp, full, beautiful tone that is consistently beautiful across the entire piano. It starts out in full blossom from the moment the key is played. The Steinway has discernible differences between bass, midrange, and treble - and the una corda in the treble is too back of the throat sounding for my taste. Also, I felt that the Steinway tone was a bit tubby - favoring the lower partials but never really blossoming. The tone of the Steinway seemed to peak and die rather than linger like the Steingraeber. For my ear, the Steingraeber tone was fuller and rounder - more complete - than the Steinway, and it also had much crisper articulation of the notes without being percussive whereas the Steinway at times seemed to be a bit muddy.
_________________________
“Music in the soul can be heard by the Universe.” ~Lao Tzu

Richard J Beebe, RPT
Piano Technician & Collaborative Pianist
Bb Piano Service
Chicago, Illinois

www.bbpianoservice.com
bbpianoservice@gmail.com

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#1867835 - 03/24/12 06:20 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
i have to go with the steinway's rich warm, rounded sound.
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#1867877 - 03/24/12 08:18 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
mautique Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 83
Loc: CA, USA
The pianist was able to extract more tonal colors from the Steinway.
_________________________
2010 Steinway B #586826

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#1867886 - 03/24/12 08:42 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
ScottM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 556
I thought the pianist was working harder with the Steinway, but the sound of the Steingraeber just flowed out. The range of tone and dynamics sounded easier to produce on the Steingraeber. Only the pianist knows for sure.
_________________________
Scott

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#1867928 - 03/24/12 10:21 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Steingraeber for me.
It just had more of a presence and a stupendous bass to my ears.


Edited by Sparky McBiff (03/24/12 10:21 PM)
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#1867958 - 03/24/12 11:12 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2445
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
I think I need to hear how both of those stack up against an Ellenburg...
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Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#1868142 - 03/25/12 10:22 AM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Eric Gloo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1253
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
The truest test would be if WE could all hear the two piano recordings from the same speakers. So, where are we all going to meet? Perhaps a Piano World Listening Party! yippie
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#2267009 - 04/25/14 04:15 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3342
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Sorry to bring back such an old thread, but someone just pointed out to me that because our youtube channel changed they couldn't access the videos here. Also, I could not edit the opening post. So, here are the same videos linked in the initial post should anyone dig up this thread again in the future smile

Same music, same pianist, same space, same recording equipment, same piano technician
Steingraeber 205 and vintage Steinway B




_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#2267016 - 04/25/14 04:22 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 730
Loc: Leicester, UK
Keith, Thanx for re-posting them. They're great vids for anyone thinking about Steinway/Steingraeber - I watched them a lot before buying my 205 from Hurstwood Farm. Of course Eric is a great pianist. I get the sense from his videos that he thoroughly appreciates and enjoys the differences between great pianos.

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#2267025 - 04/25/14 04:39 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
wimpiano Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1546
Loc: The Netherlands
When I was given the choice I would take both.. lol.
I do like the Steingraeber a lot but the Steinway sounds so perfect..
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Schimmel 116 S ...

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#2267087 - 04/25/14 06:55 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Grandman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 218
Loc: Usa
Wow, tough choices. They both sound really nice. Thanks for sharing these videos.

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#2267212 - 04/26/14 02:03 AM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
lluiscl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/10/06
Posts: 146
Sorry, both recordings can be better: too much hiss/noise...

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#2267386 - 04/26/14 01:43 PM Re: Steingraeber 205 vs Steinway B [Re: Keith D Kerman]
otherside Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/04
Posts: 145
I do like the Steinway a lot but the Steingraeber sounds so perfect smile

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