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Joined: Jan 2004
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Opening measures to Rachmaninoff PC2
Thanks for that dannylux
“The thing about the opening chords is that they produce
THE MOST MARVELLOUS, MYSTERIOUS ATMOSPHERE,
completely unlike anything in any other piano concerto.â€
Bravo ... but, tough on you chaps with small hands.
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I don't have any trouble playing the chords without rolling, though my hands only just about encompass a 10th (and I need time to stretch even to get that...). It's just that my fingers have the flexibility that allows me to contort to play the inner notes.
Some pianists roll all the chords; others roll one or two of them (like Ashkenazy); still others play the bass notes before the rest of the chords (like the composer did, though he obviously had no need to). As long as they sound convincing, and are voiced properly, I don't think it matters how you play them.
If music be the food of love, play on!
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And my reach is also a tenth, and yet I cannot come close to playing them.
Hence my main point: The single number describing what you can "reach" is insufficient for measuring hand size. It also has to with what you can do with the fingers in between.
This is a very interesting discussion. I can easily take a 10th (but nothing larger), and I have never thought that the opening chords in Rachmaninov 2 would be difficult for someone with that hand size. I just went to the piano, and yes, I can play those chords unbroken. But I do now see that there are other factors involved. It's interesting indeed; I'm fascinated that so many can't make the stretch. But Beet is right, it isn't just about the span. It's obviously not just about finger length either because my hands are not long: My middle finger is exactly 3.5 inches. It's not like I can palm a basketball or anything either  I guess my fingers are just flexible enough to make it comfortable. There has to be some sort of exercise or stretch that would help people to move their fingers in the way you have to for the chord in question.
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I have just found this regarding a broadcast by Robert Winston who interviewed Peter Dohohoemabout playing Rachmaninovs Piano Concerto No. 2.......
But the opening right-hand chords of that concerto over the tolling bass are the product of more than gloom. The rangy Rachmaninov, written off by Stravinsky as "a six-and-a-half-foot scowl", was probably suffering from Marfan syndrome, the condition that leads to exceptionally long limbs and elasticity. He wrote extraordinarily broad chords, possibly because he had lost confidence in composing for posterity – and thus for those with smaller hands. The concert pianist Peter Donohoe admits that by bar four of the concerto he has to leave out some of the notes.
SMG
Balakirev's Islamey.......My Downfall !!
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But the second RH chord involves a Db-C stretch using 2 and 5, which I can't come close to. Why not play the bottom C and D flat together with the thumb? I tried tonight and found it surprisingly easy within a few minutes of practice to produce a fine-sounding simultaneous chord that way. I think it really helps if the notes in the RH are played simultaneously, and only the LH is rolled/split if needed. (IMO )
(Used to post as SlatterFan)
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Funny, I've been hearing about these notorious chords forever, it seems, but don't remember the last time I actually tried to play them. Must have been 40 or so years ago, when I was doing the orchestra part for someone and read through the solo part for fun (and to better understand what the soloist was up against). Anyway, I just now tried them again and it turns out I can play them without breaking them (using the thumb for that Db and C). Do I get some kind of certificate for this?  I don't have huge hands, but think that doing Dohnanyi exercises has made them a bit more flexible and stretchy, which really helps for stuff like those chords.
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I used to be the same about Julius Katchen's version in my youth, but it doesn't bear close comparison with some of the great performances we have of the concerto today as it now scrappy with its approximate runs and near misses in some of its passages IMO. Well yes, we can identify some technical imperfections, but the overall thrust and ecstasy of Katchen's performance is not to be denied. He was on a mission! But times change and we mature. Back when I was 22 I thought the close of Mahler's 1st the most overwhelmingly stupendous statement of human triumph, and I would run to the bathroom for tissue and just cry my heart out. These days -and with due respect to those who still find something profound in Mahler's insistent heaven storming- I wonder what the fuss was all about. Now it seems very calculated and provincial to me. But no one will agree. I'm the odd one out.
Jason
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I used to be the same about Julius Katchen's version in my youth, but it doesn't bear close comparison with some of the great performances we have of the concerto today as it now scrappy with its approximate runs and near misses in some of its passages IMO. Well yes, we can identify some technical imperfections, but the overall thrust and ecstasy of Katchen's performance is not to be denied. He was on a mission! But times change and we mature. Back when I was 22 I thought the close of Mahler's 1st the most overwhelmingly stupendous statement of human triumph, and I would run to the bathroom for tissue and just cry my heart out. These days -and with due respect to those who still find something profound in Mahler's insistent heaven storming- I wonder what the fuss was all about. Now it seems very calculated and provincial to me. I can late to that too!. Perhaps after hearing all the increasingly technicaly perfect pianists and recordings of today, I am being harsh on Katchen. For as much wizardry that pianists such as Lang Lang display I cannot for life of me get any emotional or musical enjoyment from such school of pianists. In that respect Katchen wins for me every time. Have you heard Simon Trpceski in his new recording of the Rachmaninov concertos's ?.....now he knows how to play, boy can he play ! MG But no one will agree. I'm the odd one out.
Balakirev's Islamey.......My Downfall !!
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Learning the piece, I can fortunately play them without rolling, thanks to large enough hands. Though I've noticed that it's actually easier to play them hands crossed (left hand playing the right hand's notes) - not that I'm going to do that. The way the fingers are positioned when spread out makes this work easier than left hand playing left hand chords, interestingly.
Nevertheless, I've heard a few different variations of rolling, and I have to say my favorite is playing the bottom F first, then "jumping" quickly to the rest of the notes. I heard a recording where the pianist slowly rolled every note, and I just hated that, since it completely changes the idea of the bell-like chords.
(It helps if you can play the half step C-Db second chord with one finger, though that can get trippy).
Edit: as for the right hand, try to play the C-Db and C-D interval with on finger.
Last edited by JesseOffy; 03/25/12 10:34 AM.
Chopin, Brahms, Schubert, Rachmaninov
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Funny, I've been hearing about these notorious chords forever, it seems, but don't remember the last time I actually tried to play them. Must have been 40 or so years ago, when I was doing the orchestra part for someone and read through the solo part for fun (and to better understand what the soloist was up against). Anyway, I just now tried them again and it turns out I can play them without breaking them (using the thumb for that Db and C). Do I get some kind of certificate for this? I don't have huge hands, but think that doing Dohnanyi exercises has made them a bit more flexible and stretchy, which really helps for stuff like those chords. If you get a certificate, I should get a medal!  I play that chord using full 1-2-3-4-5, without huge hands. To me it's just a DbMaj7 outlined with the major 7 note.
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I can relate to that too!.
Perhaps after hearing all the increasingly technically perfect pianists and recordings of today, I am being harsh on Katchen. For as much wizardry that pianists such as Lang Lang display I cannot for life of me get any emotional or musical enjoyment from such school of pianists. In that respect Katchen wins for me every time.
You are spot on, and listen to Katchen in Rachmaninov again! A bit unkempt, but a great recording.
Jason
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I can relate to that too!.
Perhaps after hearing all the increasingly technically perfect pianists and recordings of today, I am being harsh on Katchen. For as much wizardry that pianists such as Lang Lang display I cannot for life of me get any emotional or musical enjoyment from such school of pianists. In that respect Katchen wins for me every time.
You are spot on, and listen to Katchen in Rachmaninov again! A bit unkempt, but a great recording. Truly. I've been listening to his solo Brahms recordings lately - such freedom!
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I've been listening to his solo Brahms recordings lately - such freedom! Those are my favourites! I have his boxed set of the piano works.
Jason
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On the the original subject of the intro chords of Rachmaninovs second piano concerto .
. Stephen Hough has tweeted me telling me not to worry about breaking the chords ,as the composer used to break them too.
Really nice that someone who is as busy as Stephen can take the time to give an amatuer pianist like myself some advice on the subject.
Last edited by Sir Monty Golfear; 04/03/12 09:22 AM.
Balakirev's Islamey.......My Downfall !!
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the rare occasion is this: the composer wrote just chords: not to be arpeggiated, and recorded them just doing the opposite, dilemma!. The answer could be: those who can't reach the 10th: arpeggiate, those who can: make a choice, and be wise: play as he wrote, not as he played...
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
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