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#1868244 - 03/25/12 01:14 PM Re: Dynamic levels of Kawai CL36 [Re: Tesir]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
That sounds a bit harsh, gvfarns. It sounds to me as if Hardwired was only trying to get to the truth after doing a bit of investigation on his own keyboard.
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#1868250 - 03/25/12 01:30 PM Re: Dynamic levels of Kawai CL36 [Re: toddy]
Hardwired Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 29
Loc: Sevilla, Spain
I have tested as Tesir suggest, (with organ sound now, I miss that part).
The key height is 2cm, at 1.1 sound start and stop at 1.5.

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#1868383 - 03/25/12 06:49 PM Re: Dynamic levels of Kawai CL36 [Re: toddy]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: toddy
That sounds a bit harsh, gvfarns. It sounds to me as if Hardwired was only trying to get to the truth after doing a bit of investigation on his own keyboard.


Yeah, you are right, it was a bit harsh. Sorry, Hardwired.

To explain what happened, at first I just wanted to nip the wrongness in the bud, but also, to me at least, it seemed that there was already plenty of information in this thread to preclude what he was asserting so I felt that he wasn't reading sufficiently before posting. After the first post telling him he was wrong, he posted again continuing his wrong line of thinking. It turns out we were just writing at the same time, so he did not see my first post. I do think he would have done better to have asked rather than stated how his DP worked, but that doesn't mean he needs too much public embarrassment.


Edited by gvfarns (03/25/12 06:51 PM)

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#1868700 - 03/26/12 11:39 AM Re: Dynamic levels of Kawai CL36 [Re: Tesir]
Tesir Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/04/12
Posts: 18
Loc: Russia
Originally Posted By: Hardwired
The key height is 2cm, at 1.1 sound start and stop at 1.5.


Thank you, Hardwired! This means, they are 0.5 and 0.9 from the top of the key. I guess, the whole travel of the key is 1 cm, isn't it?
But I also suppose, the way of measuring I suggested, may be incorrect for RM3 Grand of CA63. Its sensors are related to the hammer to more extend, than in PHA. This fact may influence dynamic and let the RM3 be more acoustic-like. But I don't know exactly.
Be more precise, as I see, sensors in GH, GH3, PHA II and III, RHA answer the keys action, not the action of hammers, as it should be. That is why their dynamic differs grately from APs, and what should be measured is the velocity at the very end of a key travel.

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#1868711 - 03/26/12 11:55 AM Re: Dynamic levels of Kawai CL36 [Re: Hardwired]
Tesir Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/04/12
Posts: 18
Loc: Russia
Originally Posted By: Hardwired
If I press a key slowly it will not produce any sound, and if I press a key to middle and stop, then press hard, it will sound ...

And what happens, if you press a key slightly bellow the level of the top sensor (at about 6 mm from the top of the key) and then stop, after somme seconds - press hard?

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#1868723 - 03/26/12 12:10 PM Re: Dynamic levels of Kawai CL36 [Re: gvfarns]
Tesir Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/04/12
Posts: 18
Loc: Russia
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
[quote=Hardwired]all major hammer-action pianos have the sensors tripped by the hammers, not the key.

I cannot agree. If the hammers were alike those on APs (or, at least, if they could move separately), then this statement could have sense. But till the hammers move with the keys, it doesn't matter, what trips the sensor - the hammer or the key.
It seems, the hammer in RM3 can move separately, but, I'm afraid, this separate movement is too insignificant to have value for velocity measurement.

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#1868732 - 03/26/12 12:45 PM Re: Dynamic levels of Kawai CL36 [Re: Tesir]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Tesir
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
[quote=Hardwired]all major hammer-action pianos have the sensors tripped by the hammers, not the key.

I cannot agree. If the hammers were alike those on APs (or, at least, if they could move separately), then this statement could have sense. But till the hammers move with the keys, it doesn't matter, what trips the sensor - the hammer or the key.
It seems, the hammer in RM3 can move separately, but, I'm afraid, this separate movement is too insignificant to have value for velocity measurement.


I don't know what you are disagreeing with here. I didn't say acoustic and digital hammers were alike, only that the sensors are associated with the hammers in all major digitals. That is an indisputable fact, so there's not really any room for disagreement.

However, I should point out, while we are on the subject, that the insignificance of the separate movement is not clear. In fact, it seems likely that it is just like an acoustic in this respect. Digital actions differ from their acoustic counterparts in that there is no true letoff, yes. That's not particularly relevant to the issue we are discussing here, though. You notice the letoff in an acoustic because the key does not press up as hard after it has completed its swing, but that happens after the velocity of the note has been fully determined. That is, the difference between acoustics and digitals affects how they feel, but not how they perform.

Let's be more specific: The difference between acoustics and digitals that you have suggested (if I read you right) would happen when you hit a note hard but stop the key before it bottoms out. Then the momentum would carry the hammer up to hit the string anyway. You have suggested that this does not occur meaningfully with RM3, but to show this you would need to demonstrate that the same strike that leads to a note on an acoustic would not lead to a note on RM3. Since most of the RM3 momentum is also in the hammer (the key itself is mostly balanced on the fulcrum as it is on an acoustic and certainly isn't any heavier), I am skeptical that there is a meaningful difference between RM3 and an acoustic in this respect. I think it's more likely that you are overestimating the ease with which this happens in an acoustic, underestimating the ease with which this happens in a digital, or both. Possibly you are confusing the letoff feel with something that actually affects the note velocity.

I've made plenty of hard strikes with no follow through that cause a note to fire on my Kawai, even though the key bottom out is small or not present. For this reason, I think you are probably wrong.

Kawai's wood action allows this kind of key-hammer separation, as you also point out, but I don't know for a fact about the other actions around. I could easily believe that many or most of them do.

The lack of letoff does lead to a significant difference in the feelof an acoustic and a digital, but as far as I know, the hammer-key separation issue you reference is not part of that difference, at least in RM3.

Was there another way in which you believe velocity measurement to be impeded by the form of the separation mechanism in RM3? I would hate to mischaracterize what you are saying, as you have done with what I have said.


Edited by gvfarns (03/26/12 12:53 PM)

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#1868751 - 03/26/12 01:19 PM Re: Dynamic levels of Kawai CL36 [Re: Tesir]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3669
Loc: North Carolina
Am I reading this right?
"... the sensors are associated with the hammers in all major digitals ..."
The sensors on mine are associated with the keys, not the hammers. I think that's true of all the Yamahas (GH/GH3/NW).

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#1868754 - 03/26/12 01:23 PM Re: Dynamic levels of Kawai CL36 [Re: Tesir]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
We looked at this a while ago and I recall looking at the actual teardown and diagrams and the Yamaha sensors were indeed associated with the hammer. At the time I also found an older thread in which people took it apart with the purpose of determining this very thing (as well as the distance between sensors, etc). They also concluded that the sensor was hammer-triggered.

I'll dig around and see if I can find the thread. It's also possible that we made a mistake. If you can find clear evidence that it's other than as I said I will be grateful at having learned something.

Of course, it's all stuck under the key so it's harder to tell than it is on Kawai's wood action. And as has been pointed out, I didn't check whether you can separately move the hammer, or whether the fact that it's the hammer that triggers the sensor is irrelevant to the way it plays.


Edited by gvfarns (03/26/12 01:26 PM)

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#1869372 - 03/27/12 05:56 PM Re: Dynamic levels of Kawai CL36 [Re: Tesir]
Hardwired Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 29
Loc: Sevilla, Spain
Originally Posted By: Tesir
... This means, they are 0.5 and 0.9 from the top of the key. I guess, the whole travel of the key is 1 cm, isn't it?

Yes, a bit more, because the key bottoms softly and you can press a little more.

Originally Posted By: Tesir

....Be more precise, as I see, sensors in GH, GH3, PHA II and III, RHA answer the keys action, not the action of hammers, as it should be. That is why their dynamic differs grately from APs, and what should be measured is the velocity at the very end of a key travel.


I don't know how GH, GH3 or PHA works, but I think that it is more realistic to measure the velocity of the hammer, because in a real piano the hammer is what hits the string.

Originally Posted By: Tesir

And what happens, if you press a key slightly bellow the level of the top sensor (at about 6 mm from the top of the key) and then stop, after somme seconds - press hard?

Yes, it is difficult to measure, but it seems that there is a point, below that it is not possible to trigger the sound, but I can not see now what happened with the hammer.
On the other hand, I can block the key with one finger, and knock the key with a knuckle of the other hand, such that the key do not travel almost nothing, but the hit is sufficient to make the hammer jump and make the sound. The key and the hammer are disconnected. Maybe you can try this on other types of keyboard to see, if I am not wrong I hope, only if the hammer is disconnected from the key, and the sensors measured the hammer travel the hit will make sound.
See this vid http://youtu.be/yxVGDdvkXhs at 2:30

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#2191720 - 12/03/13 03:24 AM Re: Dynamic levels of Kawai CL36 [Re: Tesir]
E. Christensen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/13
Posts: 38
It seems to me that people can get quite catty on here about how much more they know than everybody else. I do have to agree that Hardwired did say at the beginning that he didn't know, therefore he was stating a possibility, or an opinion. At least it was a statement that may have had some that were reading this post thinking that it could be a possibility. With today's advancement in technology, you never really know what they will cook up next.

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