Hi,
I am new to the forum. I am shopping for a new piano for my kids to start lessons. My top choice is Kawai K3. I was quoted an initial price of $6400. I checked Piano Book's online pricing guide. This is roughly 20% discount from the MSP. There seems to be room for negotion. So, what is a good price for K3 nowadays? Is 30% off MSP ($5700) a starting point for negotion or can I go lower?

Also, how does re-sale value look for K3?
Thanks.

Hi AuroraG, welcome to the forum.

30% off is not an unreasonable place to start negotiating. This may or may not fly with the dealer. It can't hurt to to make the offer though.

Negotiating a price is an unfortunate aspect of buying a piano. However, that's the way it is. Maybe the ongoing implosion of the piano market will force some positive changes on a hidebound industry.

Have you looked at a K-5? A much better piano for just a bit more money, IMHO.

Hi I'm a Kawai Piano Dealer in San Jose CA. I'm not familiar with the dynamics of the piano-market in your region hard to say if the price is great for your area or just good. Prices fluctuate based on many local factors such as cost of living; which affects the rates for moving, tuning and overall overhead of the business.
Competition among dealers it is also a factor.
However prices on a 48" upright will have small variations in the hundreds and not in the thousands therfore would not be worth exploring a market outside your area.
In general basis a discount of 20% off SMP is good, 30% is generous.
Keep it simple and enjoy your piano.

Gary and Kurtmen, thanks for the quick response. This dealer is out of state, thus no sales tax. I'll visit a local dealer as well and see how it goes. Thanks for the recommendation. I really don't like negotiations. But at least it helps to be prepared.

I have looked at K5. It's beyond my budget now. In fact even K3 was more than my initial budget. My initial budget was in the 4000s. So, Yamaha T118 was within range. I have also seen really good reviews of Perzina GP122. I have not seen it yet. I will check it out before making the final decision. But, if I can get K3 at a great price, that would be the one.

Thanks.

Hello,
I just joined the forum, and also buying a K3. Has anyone made the purchase recently? Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Oaktoner

Piano Buyer new edition is available online.
There, you'll find some realistic guidelines for pricing.
Regards,

Based on the new structure, $5700 appears reasonable.

In fact I'd put the range of fair negotiating between $5400-$5900. Keep in mind low and high end values in my range all depend on dealers and their OH costs.

Good luck!

So last week I bought our K3, ebony, new, delivered, with bench, with complimentary in home tuning, including tax. for a grand total of $5000.

California

Potential "fake" price manipulating dealer, one post wonder?

Congratulations, dealfinder. That's a nice piano, I hope you enjoy it!

Well less than 60 days ago you could get a Kawai K3 for $4500 delivered with a free tuning in the NY tri-state area.

CA always seems to get slightly better deals. What seems suspect about that?

A few of us recently got Kawai K8s for $8000 to $8500 not even including the $300 rebate.

Should probably clarify as that's without tax

2nd prices have changed since the new price guide became available. I'm on Par with Gomer's comment.

Speaking officially for Larry Fine:

Please keep in mind that the suggested range of 10% - 30% off the SMP is NOT a range of or for negotiation. It is a range to allow for the differing costs to dealers in different markets.

PLEASE READ the introduction to his pricing at http://www.pianobuyer.com/spring12/203.html.

One of Larry's major misgivings is the misuse of his pricing guidelines, dominantly by those who do not understand the major differences in costs to different dealers and in differing situations. Shoppers, and some regulars here, too often suggest that a price higher than 30% off SMP leaves room for negotiation. Assuming that a price of say 15% off SMP is higher than it ought to be, is in fact, unfair to a dealer with higher overhead.

He and I have, on many occasions discussed eliminating pricing altogether. The reason he hasn't done so it that it is likely the single most sought piece of information that shoppers look for.

I would hope that the regulars here on the Piano Forum would help educate shoppers on the right perspective to take when considering the MSRP, SMP and "street prices".

Thanks for clarifying this very important point. Although what you say does IMO follow logically from all the rest of the explanation about SMP and varying dealer wholesale prices given in the Piano Buyer, I must admit that I didn't fully understand this. Perhaps adding these sentences to the next edition would be helpful.

Good point.

I spoke to Larry and we will add it to the next edition.

Kawai K-3 pianos, I sell them for $2,500. but the keys and legs are extra. Bench is extra and delivery can range from $50. to $1500.

Do you want or need to talk to a sales consultant and will you tip the mover? Some dealers tune the pianos more than once, is that important? When you buy you might want some service, is that improtant?

Good sales people are very expensive, but do not make nearly as much nor do they have any of the fringe benefits as a policeman or fireman, or a politician or any government employee.

If I sell a K-3 for $5000. OTD the sales person might make about $150.00

You allow Macy's to charge you 700% when you buy a shirt and you allow Starbucks to make 800% when you buy the flavored water.

Auto Dealers have prices fixed so that they can make a margin that will allow them to stay in business.

These post about prices are just unfair to our business and the people in the business should join in on this one.

Teacher and techs often will ask for commissions for sending over a customer (something we do not do at our store but I know it happens all the time) how many piano salespeople ask a teacher or tech. for a kickback for a recommendation.

Sorry to get on the soapbox, but just need to air a few gripes.

Macy's operating margin is 9% and Starbucks is 13%.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=M+Key+Statistics
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=SBUX+Key+Statistics


I think you knowing how much you paid wholesale and me having no idea is unfair.

Scott, IMHO, the industry needs to look at themselves. They created this pricing mess.

The auto industry is worse for the dealers. You complain about the pricing threads. How would you like to have the invoice where you purchase your pianos wholesale posted on the web, easily found for all to see?

Jonathan

To me it does not make any sense that a piano is more difficult to shop around than a car!

I bought a wooden shed last summer and paid $3,500. There was no negatiation and the price was posted as "take it or leave it". All other shed suppliers in my area had the same policy.

I requested a price by e-mail on a Kawai K3 just to "test the water" and I received $10,000 (in Ontario Canada). Upon visiting the store a month later, I got $7000 (plus 13% tax) without any negotiation. However, I doubt I can get the price down to $5000 tax included! (Another example where pricing is higher in Canada because of lower sales volume).

I just wish piano prices were posted "as is", with an MSRP that makes sense. This way people like me could concentrate on features, touch and tone when shopping around...

My two cents.

Daniel

This topic has been discusses many times. In the FAQ is this thread which may help in understanding the complexities in pricing issues.
The Taboo Subject of Piano Pricing.

One further point: What is the actual wholesale cost of a washing machine, a tractor, a high-end wristwatch, a high-end camera, or for that matter any consumer product. Do you really think the "invoice" price on a car reflects the actual price paid by a car dealers?

Thanks, I will have a look at the FAQ. I like the title "...taboo...".

Daniel

I agree that it is not anyone's "right" to know what the wholesale price of a good is. If known, many consumers would (and do) misuse the information to try to get an unrealistic price.

Yes, the invoice price is what a car dealer pays. 20 years in the business has taught me that.

Jonathan

With a little research, and patience, one can figure out a reasonable price range for negotiation. If a buyer has done their homework, is fair/reasonable, it's simply a matter of visiting dealers and negotiating.

It's the buyer who lowballs and want's dealer cost for a product that upsets the market. That practice is not "fair/reasonable". Most consumers are not Cost Engineers, they have no idea of 'overhead' costs or what it takes to be a sustainable business or hidden dealer service costs associated with a product.

My understanding is the there are a number of sales incentives provided new car dealerships that are not reflected by the "invoice" price. Also, isn't it true that, unlike the piano industry, much of the profitability of new car dealerships are from non-sales income, particularly service?

I know this is OT, and there is a lot of difference between new cars and new pianos, but since Steve Cohen is using the analogy, I’ll chime in…

A sales manager of a medium size Ford auto dealership used to be a member of my Church. I ask him one Sunday, out of curiosity, how much commission a car salesperson usually made on the sale of a new car (if he didn’t mind me asking). He said it depended on the particular model, and what kind of price was negotiated, but usually ranged from $150 to $300 per car. Much less than I was expecting.

On the other hand, he said the sales commission on a late model used car could be as much as $3000, depending on the profit margin the dealer was making. He said most auto dealership make the most profit on the sale of late model used cars they take in as trade-ins.

So, when the car dealer offers you peanuts on your trade, they turn around and make big bucks on it… such is the nature of the business.

Personally, I think the best approach on getting the best price on a new piano is to shop around at the various dealers. The problem is, at least in my area, there are not that many dealers around, unfortunately.

Rick

It's the customer's fault that the system set up by the dealers doesn't work?

Not necessarily, I was saying it's the customer's fault who figures out the cost, and abuses the knowledge not being fair to different dealer's OH costs. They don't have to buy the piano from xyz dealer if they don't like.

What alternative system would you suggest?

[Perhaps it would be better to answer in a new thread.]

There are very few direct to dealer incentives available anymore. Usually only at model year switch over for last year's models on the lot. Not all manufacturers even do that anymore. Almost all the incentives available now on new cars are manufacturer to consumer incentives.

Auto dealers do have service departments - some make money with them - some do not. I see nothing stopping Piano Dealers from doing the same.

Auto dealers hire expensive, knowledgable technicians and spend lots of money on intrastructure to support them. Run properly - the service department can make money. Run poorly - it can close the business down.

Jonathan