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#1870213 - 03/29/12 09:19 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: Gigantoad]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
just because someone attacked your precious V-Piano again just screams "protect investment"!


This idea came up for the second time from the same poster...

Does one really protect an investment by posting on an online forum? Somehow I have my doubts.

I have vastly more expensive investments than V-Piano and it never occurred to me I could protect them that easily. Perhaps time to go to car forums. wink


Anyway, the reason I criticized Physis is because I'm tired of "progress" in digital piano market.

It's high time to stop playing around and actually make a better DP. After two decades of sampled pianos, V-Piano was a quantum leap. Physis is-unfortunately-a variation and not a breakthrough when it comes to purely acoustic piano sound.

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#1870220 - 03/29/12 09:30 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pv88]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Maybe Gary could record the first minute or so of the rhapsody on the Physis -- you know, the part before it starts getting too hairy;-) -- even that much would be an interesting thing to hear and compare to those others.

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#1870232 - 03/29/12 09:41 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pv88]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
"Protection of investment" was my very nice way of saying fanboy. But fine, there you have it wink

V-Piano is already indistinguishable from a real acoustic, according to you. So how can anyone still make a better DP? What is this breakthrough that you expect from a new modelled piano? How can you expect quantum leaps when you already believe to have perfection as it is?

Finally there is another fully modelled piano instead of another sampled one that you dislike so much, yet you have nothing but contempt for it and dismiss it based on a handful of early demos. You don't think that's a bit off?

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#1870234 - 03/29/12 09:42 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: Kawai James]
pianoxcape Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 71
Loc: Cape Cod
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Thank you for your open responses Gary.

I wasn't aware that the V-Piano uses wooden keys though...

Cheers,
James
x


Sorry, I was comparing to the V-Grand piano action....which uses wooden keys.
_________________________
- Gary Girouard
Consultant for Viscount ("Physis" Physical-model piano; http://www.physispiano.com)
Pianist/Composer of "The Naked Piano" series (Free Music Samples http://www.garygirouardmusic.com)
Teacher, Entrepreneur...Parent

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#1870235 - 03/29/12 09:43 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: Kawai James]
pianoxcape Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 71
Loc: Cape Cod
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Thank you for your reply Gary.

Do you know the architecture/vendor of the CPU? For example, is it x86 or Risc based? Intel, AMD, ARM, etc.?

Cheers,
James
x

Hi James -- more precisely we use 6 TI OMAP DSP+ARM PROCECESSOR

hope this helps!
_________________________
- Gary Girouard
Consultant for Viscount ("Physis" Physical-model piano; http://www.physispiano.com)
Pianist/Composer of "The Naked Piano" series (Free Music Samples http://www.garygirouardmusic.com)
Teacher, Entrepreneur...Parent

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#1870258 - 03/29/12 10:15 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: Gigantoad]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
"Protection of investment" was my very nice way of saying fanboy. But fine, there you have it wink

V-Piano is already indistinguishable from a real acoustic, according to you. So how can anyone still make a better DP? What is this breakthrough that you expect from a new modelled piano? How can you expect quantum leaps when you already believe to have perfection as it is?

Finally there is another fully modelled piano instead of another sampled one that you dislike so much, yet you have nothing but contempt for it and dismiss it based on a handful of early demos. You don't think that's a bit off?



1. There's always room for improvement.
And there's always room for making things worse.

2. In my rejection of Physis sound (which you for some reason refuse to accept), I am using the real data that's publicly available. Sound samples provided by Physis.

What are you basing your open-mindedness on? "It looks promising, it has 24 billion cycles per second and a bunch of onboard instruments, therefore it will sound better than it sounds right now in the audio samples, which are premature and are nothing like the final product. Nobody should express negative opinions at this point. Only good things -- or become labeled a fanboy".

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#1870263 - 03/29/12 10:23 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: anotherscott]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Maybe Gary could record the first minute or so of the rhapsody on the Physis -- you know, the part before it starts getting too hairy;-) -- even that much would be an interesting thing to hear and compare to those others.


Precisely.

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#1870268 - 03/29/12 10:27 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pv88]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
I'm an optimist I guess. That and the fact that I have heard horrible V-Piano demos alongside great ones and because modelling allows to alter the sound in a lot of ways (one of the main selling points of the V-Piano by the way). So after hearing so few demos which apparently all use the same preset that is way too bright for my taste, how can I already dismiss the whole product based solely on that?

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#1870289 - 03/29/12 11:00 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: Gigantoad]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
I'm an optimist I guess. That and the fact that I have heard horrible V-Piano demos alongside great ones and because modelling allows to alter the sound in a lot of ways (one of the main selling points of the V-Piano by the way). So after hearing so few demos which apparently all use the same preset that is way too bright for my taste, how can I already dismiss the whole product based solely on that?



From my experience, what you hear in first public demos is usually product pushed to the limits. I don't predict a wonder. If it happens, Physis will be the first DP or software piano manufacturer that made a sound demo that underrepresents the product.




Edited by alekkh (03/29/12 11:20 AM)

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#1870292 - 03/29/12 11:02 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pianoxcape]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: pianoxcape
... more precisely we use 6 TI OMAP DSP+ARM PROCECESSOR

When you need raw throughput it's hard to beat an FPGA. I'd definitely look into that before I started lashing multiple processors together. Many physical model algorithms (waveguides and second order filters) can be done quite efficiently with the ALU / block ram found in most FPGAs.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1870331 - 03/29/12 11:56 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: alekkh]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1822
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: alekkh
From my experience, what you hear in first public demos is usually product pushed to the limits. I don't predict a wonder. If it happens, Physis will be the first DP or software piano manufacturer that made a sound demo that underrepresents the product.


I think it makes sense to, at least, acknowledge this truism.

Certainly, when they make the initial demos.... they are not just randomly throwing some settings together without regard for the sound they are generating. They want to demonstrate their product to the very best of their ability.

So, do not expect the actual product to be much better than what you hear. They have decided that those demos present their product as best it can be presented.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Racvenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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#1870354 - 03/29/12 12:17 PM Re: Physis Piano [Re: dmd]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: dmd
Originally Posted By: alekkh
From my experience, what you hear in first public demos is usually product pushed to the limits. I don't predict a wonder. If it happens, Physis will be the first DP or software piano manufacturer that made a sound demo that underrepresents the product.


I think it makes sense to, at least, acknowledge this truism.

Certainly, when they make the initial demos.... they are not just randomly throwing some settings together without regard for the sound they are generating. They want to demonstrate their product to the very best of their ability.

So, do not expect the actual product to be much better than what you hear. They have decided that those demos present their product as best it can be presented.


On the contrary, early demos are sometimes done on prototypes, and further improvements can be made before the unit goes into production.

Also, in this case, we've been told that there are 32 preset pianos in it and we've heard, what, one or two of them? And you can't say "well, they surely demonstrated their best one," because these things are subjective to some extent. If everyone could agree which of the 32 was best, they could leave out 31 of them.

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#1870376 - 03/29/12 12:51 PM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pianoxcape]
DazedAndConfused Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 195
Loc: Greenwich, London, United King...
@pianoxcape

Thank you for the information re: the Physis piano. A good modelled piano with a 21st century user interface is a tantalising prospect if it can really deliver on sound and usability.

Can you tell us how soon will the Physis piano be in showrooms for the public to test?
_________________________
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Shostakovich, Prelude & Fugue no. 5
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#1870396 - 03/29/12 01:15 PM Re: Physis Piano [Re: anotherscott]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
If everyone could agree which of the 32 was best, they could leave out 31 of them.



Sorry for posting a trivial idea, but it is infinitely harder to make 1 very good sounding piano than 32 (or 256) usual pianos.


If Physis team somehow, by mistake, used one of the less acoustic-sounding models for the demo, then you may be onto something. Do you really believe in such a mistake ?

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#1870413 - 03/29/12 01:48 PM Re: Physis Piano [Re: alekkh]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: alekkh
If Physis team somehow, by mistake, used one of the less acoustic-sounding models for the demo, then you may be onto something. Do you really believe in such a mistake ?


Gary said:

"there are 32 'preset' physical models in the Physis piano that include European, American and Asian concert models. Although not written specifically on the piano (probably due to licensing or trademarks?), the preset models reference Steinway, Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Fazioli, Yamaha, Kawai and others"

What I'm suggesting is perhaps one of the models is not as appealing to you as another might be.

I don't like Nord's Steinway and C7 samples. But I really enjoy playing their Bosendorfer sample.

Is this really so hard to understand?

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#1870431 - 03/29/12 02:09 PM Re: Physis Piano [Re: DazedAndConfused]
pianoxcape Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 71
Loc: Cape Cod
Originally Posted By: DazedAndConfused
@pianoxcape

Thank you for the information re: the Physis piano. A good modelled piano with a 21st century user interface is a tantalising prospect if it can really deliver on sound and usability.

Can you tell us how soon will the Physis piano be in showrooms for the public to test?


I'm told that it will be commercially available this Fall - probably November or December. I'd expect it to arrive in showrooms first in Europe and soon after in the US.

Kind regards,
_________________________
- Gary Girouard
Consultant for Viscount ("Physis" Physical-model piano; http://www.physispiano.com)
Pianist/Composer of "The Naked Piano" series (Free Music Samples http://www.garygirouardmusic.com)
Teacher, Entrepreneur...Parent

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#1870436 - 03/29/12 02:12 PM Re: Physis Piano [Re: Epeios]
pianoxcape Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 71
Loc: Cape Cod
Originally Posted By: Epeios

Unlike the video in the original post, they write about cakes, and not cookies, but I think the technology used for their modeled organs should be somewhat related with the one used for their modeled pianos smile !

The physis organ WEB site : http://www.physisorgans.com/


Ha! It seems Italians can never quite escape food! Personally, I like the analogy, but I like 'regular' Italian food much better than cakes and cookies smile
_________________________
- Gary Girouard
Consultant for Viscount ("Physis" Physical-model piano; http://www.physispiano.com)
Pianist/Composer of "The Naked Piano" series (Free Music Samples http://www.garygirouardmusic.com)
Teacher, Entrepreneur...Parent

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#1870452 - 03/29/12 02:25 PM Re: Physis Piano [Re: anotherscott]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: alekkh
If Physis team somehow, by mistake, used one of the less acoustic-sounding models for the demo, then you may be onto something. Do you really believe in such a mistake ?


Gary said:

"there are 32 'preset' physical models in the Physis piano that include European, American and Asian concert models. Although not written specifically on the piano (probably due to licensing or trademarks?), the preset models reference Steinway, Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Fazioli, Yamaha, Kawai and others"

What I'm suggesting is perhaps one of the models is not as appealing to you as another might be.

I don't like Nord's Steinway and C7 samples. But I really enjoy playing their Bosendorfer sample.

Is this really so hard to understand?



What you wrote is not hard to understand. But it isn't the topic of the discussion.

The discussion was whether Physis brings the sound closer to a real acoustic piano than its predecessors or not.

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#1870457 - 03/29/12 02:35 PM Re: Physis Piano [Re: alekkh]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: alekkh
The discussion was whether Physis brings the sound closer to a real acoustic piano than its predecessors or not.

People even can disagree about which DP sound is closer to an acoustic than another, since they're all imperfect, but often in different ways. So it is certainly conceivable that someone will find one Physis model more like a "real piano" than another, and it's also possible that you won't get consensus on which one that is, that was my point.

I'd like to hear more samples of different presets, though it's all somewhat academic until production models exist.

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#1870458 - 03/29/12 02:36 PM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pianoxcape]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: pianoxcape


I'm told that it will be commercially available this Fall - probably November or December. I'd expect it to arrive in showrooms first in Europe and soon after in the US.

Kind regards,


So this really is some kind of prototype.

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#1870467 - 03/29/12 02:47 PM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pianoxcape]
DazedAndConfused Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 195
Loc: Greenwich, London, United King...
Originally Posted By: pianoxcape
Originally Posted By: DazedAndConfused
@pianoxcape

Thank you for the information re: the Physis piano. A good modelled piano with a 21st century user interface is a tantalising prospect if it can really deliver on sound and usability.

Can you tell us how soon will the Physis piano be in showrooms for the public to test?


I'm told that it will be commercially available this Fall - probably November or December. I'd expect it to arrive in showrooms first in Europe and soon after in the US.

Kind regards,


Thanks for that info. Unfortunately, for me that is a bit too long to wait and as I doubt I would use any of the physical models apart from the acoustic piano one, I will get a V-Piano.

Nonetheless, I wish you every success with this venture.

Kind regards

Michael
_________________________
Currently working on:
Poulenc, Mouvements Perpetuels
Shostakovich, Prelude & Fugue no. 5
Beethoven, Sonata in F Op. 10 No. 2

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#1870493 - 03/29/12 03:15 PM Re: Physis Piano [Re: anotherscott]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
So it is certainly conceivable that someone will find one Physis model more like a "real piano" than another


Correct. I'm sure Physis will make plenty of people happy.

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#1870573 - 03/29/12 05:42 PM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pv88]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 737
bad joke on its way...



faeces piano
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#1870919 - 03/30/12 10:46 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pv88]
Jake Johnson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/08
Posts: 84
I wonder what the editable parameters are. And the currently unavailable ones that may become accessible through software.

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#1968617 - 10/04/12 10:29 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pv88]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
Parameters can be identified on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DlguURb7kE, its in Italian, but the visual information given in the video shows at least some of the parameters.

Talked today with the distributor in Germany. The pianos will enter the show rooms earliest mid of November.

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#1968625 - 10/04/12 10:42 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pv88]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3042
Loc: Oregon
That's interesting news. I do hope the reality lives up to the hype.
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#1968639 - 10/04/12 11:06 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pv88]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
4:08 until 4:40 is the significant part. Sounds ok. Shows promise at least.
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Yamaha CP1

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#1968660 - 10/04/12 11:48 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: EssBrace]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3042
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
4:08 until 4:40 is the significant part. Sounds ok. Shows promise at least.

I actually think it sounds good. Difficult to tell from such short snippets, but it doesn't exhibit (puts on steel helmet and flak jacket) the mid-range issues of the V.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
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#1968664 - 10/04/12 11:54 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pv88]
Karnevil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 159
Yeah, it sounds OK, but not great IMO.

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#1968925 - 10/05/12 12:10 AM Re: Physis Piano [Re: pianoxcape]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
Originally Posted By: pianoxcape
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Thank you for your open responses Gary.

I wasn't aware that the V-Piano uses wooden keys though...

Cheers,
James
x


Sorry, I was comparing to the V-Grand piano action....which uses wooden keys.


Gary,

Please note that neither piano, i.e., V-Piano, or, V-Piano "Grand" has wooden keys. Both pianos make use of the "Ivory Feel" key tops, although the keys themselves are still plastic.

Roland uses something else that looks (or, appears) to be "wood" on the sides of the keys, but if you examine them closer this is not wood. Kawai uses real wooden keys in the CA95 for example, but Roland does not.

Best regards,

pv88

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