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#1873010 - 04/03/12 10:08 AM i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop!
steve1991 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 24
hardware:
notebook with i5 cpu, 4g ram, 128g SSD
presonus audiobox
yamaha clp-s406

connection:
yamaha midi out connect to presonus midi in, presonus usb connect to notebook usb port,
and presonus line out to yamaha line in

driver:
inside ivory cantabile, within the audio engine options, 4 drivers were shown
1. ASIO ASIO4ALL v2
2. ASIO Audiobox VSL ASIO driver
3. Directsound - speakers(Realtek Highdefinition audio)
4. Directsound - speakers(Audiobox 22VSL Audio)
and i selected 2.

any sample size setting of lower than 2048 result in some click sound after over 10 seconds of playing,
and when on 2048, the latency is 46.4ms which is a bit too slow for normal play.
the curious thing is when i was even not playing the piano, the load percentage on the cabtabile is at 70%!

i've read many threads here about the ivory and i am pretty sure that my hardware is enough to get a very
low latency. so what's wrong with it? is it because of the way i hooked up the notebook, audiobox and the piano?
can anyone give me sone advise? Thanks very much.

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#1873021 - 04/03/12 10:41 AM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Strange. Have you tried connecting only the midi cable? Or alternatively only the usb cable. Maybe something gets confused when both are connected.

The lineout from Yamaha to Presonus linein is also unnecessary, unless you want to record the sound from the Yamaha into the PC.

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#1873077 - 04/03/12 12:25 PM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: Gigantoad]
steve1991 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 24
i connect line out from the presonus to line in of yamaha is because i want to use the piano's internal speaker for sound.

your suggestion is, connect the piano with the notebook using usb cable, and take away the midi cable? i will give it a try. thanks.

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#1873093 - 04/03/12 12:46 PM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Oh ok, I misread that. Makes sense.

Midi and USB most likely do the same thing, which is to send the midi data from your keyboard to the computer. They include both just for convenience.

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#1873097 - 04/03/12 12:48 PM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3021
Loc: Oregon
A good test would be to switch to ASIO4ALL, set your desired sample size (within Ivory) and listen on headphones direct from the laptop (i.e. completely bypass the Presonus). That should indicate whether the problem is with your Audiobox or internally in the computer. If it's in the computer, there are a lot of tweaks available to make Windows perform better.

I may be wrong about this, but I think Cantabile only meters a single core. Hence, you can drive the meter well above 100% with multi-core machines. I wouldn't worry too much about the metering, but you could try running Ivory outside of Cantabile to see if you get different results. Doesn't it have a standalone application? Alternatively, you might want to try it in Savihost, which is a very undemanding little program.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

https://soundcloud.com/richards-recordings/sets/strange-charm-waiting-for-the/s-ppGuy

"can hardly wait to hear what voxpox has to say..."
[HisKidd, May 2014]

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#1873105 - 04/03/12 01:16 PM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: voxpops]
steve1991 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 24
there seem to be no problem if i use the asio4all driver and listen to the notebook sound output without connecting the presonus.

by using the presonus instead of the notebook sound card to generate sound can only get a better result as far as i can understand. cantabile is the application comes with the package to drive the ivory, and from the manual the basic requirment is duo core cpu, 2g ram and 7000 rpm hard disk. so i dont think i cannot get a low latency out of my hardware list.

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#1873111 - 04/03/12 01:30 PM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
Walt Brooks Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 16
Loc: New England
Have you disabled the Realtek sound card? If not, it will create problems - go to the Device Manager, and disable it. You can turn it back on later if you need it for other applications.

Good luck

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#1873120 - 04/03/12 01:47 PM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: Walt Brooks]
steve1991 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 24
i have tried to disable it in the device manager, and the result is the same.

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#1873137 - 04/03/12 02:15 PM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
steve1991 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 24
i just tried to bypass all the presonus stuff. just connect the piano to my notebook by usb cable. use the asio4all driver, setting the sample rate to 512(latency = 11.1ms). and listen to the sound through the notebook's head phone jack.

the result is completely different now! there is no more crack sound once in a while and theres hardly any latency i can feel after i finish playing the whole turkish march! obviously the previous latency comes from the usb connection from the presonus to the notebook!

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#1873161 - 04/03/12 03:34 PM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3786
Loc: North Carolina
That's not the conclusion I would reach.

I see exactly the opposite. I get terrible results with ASIO4All and the internal sound card, but flawless results with the Presonus card and Presonus ASIO.

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#1873164 - 04/03/12 03:40 PM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: MacMacMac]
steve1991 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 24
so the next step i try will be another way of connecting the devices, that is

1. connect the piano to the notebook via usb cable
2. connect the presonus to the notebook via another usb cable
3. connect line out of presonus to the line in of piano

how do you hook up your devices?


Edited by steve1991 (04/03/12 03:41 PM)

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#1873189 - 04/03/12 04:18 PM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
PhilzPiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/20/09
Posts: 113
Loc: UK
Might have nothing to do with it, but have a look at the power options for your notebook under Control Panel. My laptop has several settings ranging from max power saving to max performance. On anything other than max performance, the processor speed is throttled back in order to save battery power and it causes problems when using software pianos. Definitely worth checking.

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#1873462 - 04/04/12 03:03 AM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
steve1991 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 24
i have tested the 3 ways of connection:

first
yamaha midi out connect to presonus midi in
presonus usb connect to notebook usb port,
presonus line out to yamaha line in

second
connect the piano to the notebook via usb cable
connect the presonus to the notebook via another usb cable
connect line out of presonus to the line in of piano

third(throw away the presonus!)
connect the piano to the notebook via usb
use the asio4all driver
listen to sound through the notebook headphone jack when playing

only the third way give a satisfactory result!
for the first 2 ways of connection, there are some annoying cracking sound once in a while when playing the piano!

i am starting to suspect there is something wrong with the presonus itself!

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#1873465 - 04/04/12 03:11 AM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
That would be my guess too. Either that or you have some driver issues. Did you download the latest drivers for the Presonus?

The Presonus should give you even lower latencies and better audio quality, if it worked correctly that is.

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#1873467 - 04/04/12 03:20 AM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: Gigantoad]
steve1991 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 24
Presonus should give you even lower latencies and better audio quality. yes, that's exactly what i wanted out of it for buying it, its not cheap either. so i am very disappointed.


i install the presonus driver from the disk in the package, but even a out dated driver wouldnt give me cracking sounds when playing. i may need to run some self test on the presonus!


Edited by steve1991 (04/04/12 03:22 AM)

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#1873470 - 04/04/12 03:37 AM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
It's possible that drivers on the CD are very outdated and might have compatibility issues with Windows 7. Make sure you get the latest from the Presonus site.

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#1873473 - 04/04/12 04:00 AM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: Gigantoad]
steve1991 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 24
ok. i will go presonus to get the latest driver, thanks!

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#1873494 - 04/04/12 06:09 AM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
steve1991 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 24
i installed the latest driver from presonus website, its 1.47.0.0(24 Aug 2011), the previous one i was using is 1.42.0.0(20 Jun 2011)

the result is just the same, there is some bursting, cracking sound when i play the piano, both from the headphone jack and line out from the presonus.

my notebook has 2 usb ports, and in fact when i plug in the presonus to one of them, there is constantly some feedback noise, like buup, buup .. from the presonus output. but if i switch the presonus to connect to the other usb port, this kind of feedback noise disappear!

may be i just need to throw away the damn presonus!

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#1873496 - 04/04/12 06:15 AM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Yeah, at this point I would assume the product is faulty. Return for a refund if possible.

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#1873527 - 04/04/12 08:23 AM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
steve1991 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 24
i let my sister(she's grade 8) to try out the two sounds, one from the yamaha clp-s406, and one from the ivory II German D. and she said the one
from the clp-s406 is better, and more like a real piano!

looks like i've wasted my money, is it because i havent used the presonus or i need to do some fine tuning on the ivory cantabile?

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#1873540 - 04/04/12 08:43 AM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: steve1991
i let my sister(she's grade 8) to try out the two sounds, one from the yamaha clp-s406, and one from the ivory II German D. and she said the one
from the clp-s406 is better, and more like a real piano!

looks like i've wasted my money, is it because i havent used the presonus or i need to do some fine tuning on the ivory cantabile?



That has been my experience with all sample library-based pianos I tried. I always prefer real DP, even older Yamaha P120 to my finger and ears is more playable than computer samples.

So I am no longer considering piano samples. Only hardware! I bet you also prefer no pops clicks, latency and other hassles.


I know. There's a big bunch of people who believe Ivory or other sample pianos beat DP because they host gigabytes of samples. Not my experience. And apparently not yours.

My suggestion use your CLP and focus on enjoying it. Grass is not greener on the other side and Yamaha engineers know how to sample pianos _no worse than Galaxy or any other self-proclaimed internet experts_.

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#1873552 - 04/04/12 09:31 AM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: steve1991]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Ivory II is widely recognized as the closest thing to the real deal. If your sister thought that the Yamaha sounded better than I assume she either doesn't know how a real Steinway 9' grand sounds like, or more likely, the Ivory II didn't quite sound right through the onboard speakers (I had a similiar experience when trying to do this with the AvantGrand speakers) or your low quality notebook output just didn't deliver a proper signal.

On top of that you need to optimize the velocity curve in Ivory II to match your keyboard as best as possible. If all this is too fiddly and you'd rather hit one "power up" button and be done with it, then obviously stick to your DP and forget about all this software mumbo jumbo.

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#1873578 - 04/04/12 11:12 AM Re: i get huge latency problem running ivory II on my laptop! [Re: alekkh]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 539
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: alekkh
Originally Posted By: steve1991
i let my sister(she's grade 8) to try out the two sounds, one from the yamaha clp-s406, and one from the ivory II German D. and she said the one
from the clp-s406 is better, and more like a real piano!

looks like i've wasted my money, is it because i havent used the presonus or i need to do some fine tuning on the ivory cantabile?



That has been my experience with all sample library-based pianos I tried. I always prefer real DP, even older Yamaha P120 to my finger and ears is more playable than computer samples.

So I am no longer considering piano samples. Only hardware! I bet you also prefer no pops clicks, latency and other hassles.


I know. There's a big bunch of people who believe Ivory or other sample pianos beat DP because they host gigabytes of samples. Not my experience. And apparently not yours.

My suggestion use your CLP and focus on enjoying it. Grass is not greener on the other side and Yamaha engineers know how to sample pianos _no worse than Galaxy or any other self-proclaimed internet experts_.



i buy what you are saying regarding playing/performing bu the longer you do this, the more you can't help but become "educated" (or at least more aware..) about sounds and the technology behind them, and the more demanding you will become of yourself. That is exactly the progression i followed when i started using a DP 6 years ago and recording it. I thought i sounded GREAT!!! but i think i was just thrilled with the idea that i could actually make a recording of myself. Once i got past that stage, i started questioning the sound of what i recorded (on a p250 with its internal pianos) and realized that it was incredibly lacking. The piano is a beautiful and complex instrument. The tiny samples in a DP can't come close to doing it justice- at least not in a recording (ok, maybe in a mix, but certainly not in solo work..). so, imho, the sample programs are much better for recording. to me, a reasonable strategy is to play/perform using the onboard sounds of your DP- yes, its most likely going to feel better connected. if/when you want to record-use the samples, either directly or by creating a midi file and rendering an audio file using the sample program.

my current setup runs ivory II fine- i use it for both playing and recording. i couldn't go back to the p250. and when i listen to demos of the newest DP's i find them really lacking the detail i've come to expect using samples. But like i said- that is a viewpoint based on recording, not just playing!!


Edited by bfb (04/04/12 11:19 AM)
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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