We have in Vancouver, at the present time, a serious allegation made in writing by a local technician about the properties of Teflon powder (PTFE). This is the fine cut Teflon many technicians have been using for years to lubricate knuckles and other friction points.

There is a chemical used in the process of making Teflon (PTFE) that is called perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA) that is suspected to be a carcinogen but this product is not present in Teflon itself.

Here is a verbatim statement from this technician’s invoice;



This is an outrageous statement to make to a client and owner of a recently purchased piano with no substantiation or peer reviewed science to backstop the claim made.

Have any of the technicians here ever heard this before? If we have any chemical experts here your comments are a welcome addition.

Comments and opinions from everyone please.

I am no chemist but I do know it is unsafe to transport Teflon across borders this way.

I personally use Teflon powder when needed.

Getting any charges to stick may be difficult.

Hey, I use it all the time. Gotta die of something. Might as well be slippery on the way out!

Good one Rod, that's funny...

Hey Jerry,
I use the stuff all the time too. I know lots of tech who do. This product is sold by every piano tool/parts supplier I know.

Nope. That's a new one for me. Not only do I coat knuckles with Teflon powder, before they receive it, they get sprayed with TFL-50.

That's just crazy.
It is the PFOA used in the manufacture of Teflon that is a problem for workers and Teflon can break down and produce toxic compounds in high heat.
(Teflon itself is extremely toxic to birds and bird owners should rid their house of Teflon cooking pans).
But powdered Teflon on parts is not going to harm anyone.
Even if Teflon itself was proven to be a problem it is going to be because of inhalation.
If the powder is on the piano's knuckles then it should stay there and only by making it airborne could it possibly cause any problem.
This is often the suggested remedy for Asbestos in many cases. If asbestos (which is known to be HIGHLY dangerous) is left alone it will not cause a problem. It is only when one starts removing it or disturbing it that it can cause problems since it can then be inhaled.
The tech that removed it is either extremely paranoid for no reason or he was looking for something to bill the client for.

Not familiar with that one. I expect it is a aerosol spray lube of some sort?

Sparky this is what I have read in my research.Teflon itself does not begin to break down until temperatures of 482 F°

So unless we are placing the clients piano in a pizza oven….

Jerry gave me a neat trick to use with this Teflon powder a couple of years back. He mentioned that his father used to mix powder up into a paste like form with isopropyl, and then apply it to the knuckles.

I had never heard of this before so I tried it out.

At times some older knuckles tend to get soft and mushy as the buckskin stretches. The wire brush seems to make these types of knuckles worse. What this paste does is makes the buckskin shrink slightly and that hardens up the knuckle a bit making for a more positive let-off sequence with the jack. I found this out by trying it on an old set of knuckles that were giving problems.

I agree about inhalation. The powder is extremely fine and can penetrate deep in the lungs.
I worry about this as much as sawdust.

Silverwood: Is this an alternative to bolstering the knuckles or is this a remedy for an issue with the buckskin itself?

Wow, great memory Dan! I've used it that way in my shop for years. The alcohol dries out leaving the Teflon or, powered soap stone deeper into the felt and knuckles along with a lot less of a mess. When mixed up in a bowl, when the alcohol dries, what's left? Nothing but Teflon....

Gene,
I would agree with the observations about fine particles. A variety of small particles are drawn into the breathing apparatus on a daily basis. But this does not make one of them a cancer causing agent as claimed.

RJ10,
Thanks for the question. I found this to be an alternative to bolster in some cases only. If the buckskin is really quite loose then it will not work. I tried this on a set of knuckles where the piano had been dormant for a long period and it helped a lot with the flat spots. But on other knuckles not so much. Really a trial an error thing…..

Jerry,
Yes the soapstone that is the part I forgot. I like the paste thing. Easy to apply and keeps the dust down.
It is true; the alcohol draws the Teflon deep into the buckskin and remains for longer periods without re-application. That is the part I liked, when the bowl dried out.

Teflon is absolutely non toxic, It’s the most inert polymer on earth. It can, however, be an irritant in your lungs or eyes. It decomposes above 400C (750F).


Jack Houweling
604 970-3371
www.Jackspiano.com

Yes. It is a Teflon based dry film lube. You can get it from Pianotek Supply. http://www.tfl50.com/

This is what concerns me about teflon powder. Once it lodges in your lungs it will stay there indefinitely rather than decompose and expel unless it is possible to migrate out. There may be a cumulative build up in the lungs during a lifetime of inhaling tiny amounts every so often. Now, potential residual Perfluorooctanoic acid is a worry also.

Teflon (or its decomposition products) is only released from the cooking pans when they are overheated. And by the time it's actually released, it's bad not only for the birds, but for everyone in the house. So I don't quite get this statement...

Some emails came in overnight from technicians; I haven’t been able to ask them about posting their names so this is the email text verbatim;








Here are two piano parts supplier responses. Both of these suppliers are well know to all technicians.






Some links for reading:


http://www2.dupont.com/Teflon/en_US/products/safety/index.html

http://www.cancer.org/Cancer/CancerCause...noic-acid--pfoa

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read...irds-and-humans

http://video.about.com/environment/Is-Teflon-Cookware-Safe-.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8404384/ (Be sure to read all the way to the end, especially the last sentence.)

http://www.webmd.com/cancer/features/teflon-pans

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1976909_1976895_1976902,00.html

Chris,
There is no evidence that the fine particles remain in your lungs indefinitely any more than any other microscopic particles you absorb during the day. Once again I have to state that this does not make a substance a cancer causing agent as per the written claim by this local technician.

3m has stopped making PFOS in yr 2000. There is a stewardship program to phase out PFOA by 2015.

Interesting to note in the provided links above that that any residual PFOA can only be activated by heat above a certain point.

I think we need to be careful making assertions without any facts to backstop the claims made. This is the problem with the local technician here. He is making opinionated statements as facts in writing without any clear peer-reviewed science to substantiate his claims.

Dupont and 3M will take these claims seriously. That has the potential to earn him a visit to the court docket in defense of his claims.

When I have pressed this person for science to back up his assertion I get the below as a response now stated as only his opinion:




Can any of the local technicians in this chapter confirm this?

Dan, I only mentioned that because of the inert nature of teflon. Most other particles may gradually decompose or be able to absorb. Asbestos is another example of an inert, and therefore non-toxic, substance and we know that it stays in the lungs for life. The cancer trigger is thought to be mechanical because of the crystalline shape, but teflon particles are round and slippery so that may thankfully enable it to migrate away in phlegm. If so, then maybe old technicians have a new lubricant source - only joking.

He has indeed brought this up over the years. He has not been asked to teach on his thoughts but brings it up when others talk about using the product in a favorable manner.
I do believe it was addressed when Steve was here in my shop.

Chris thanks for the added comments. I did have a document come in with more safety information but it is in pdf form and I have no idea how to get it onto this forum.

If you or anyone else would like a copy of that document please email me direct from my web site icon and I would be glad to send a copy of that one...

The short version is that under first aid section, inhalation, skin contact, and even swallowing this product is not harmful.

It does say if you get some into your eyes to flush with plenty of water, but that is the usual for many products.

Rod,

Thanks for the clarification on the presentation aspect.The statments made about Teflon from this person are disingenuous.

I would venture to state at this point that the claims regarding Teflon being a cancer causing agent have been manufactured and perhaps for the reason suggested earlier by Sparky.

Here is another email just come in as I was writing this posting;




Something from a wise fellow a long time back;

"All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison…." Paracelsus (1493-1541)

Never concern yourself with the chemical, only the concentration. Water, oxygen and (literally) everything else is toxic at the proper dose.

Only charlatans fail to describe the concentrations (and toxicity levels) of the scary sounding chemicals they want you to fear (as an entirely dishonest means to their purely political ends).

I don't know why you don't "get" this statement. Someties some things are very toxic to some species but not affect other species.

There are several things that are deadly poisonous to birds that don't bother humans at all.
If your Teflon pan overheats your birds will die, usually within minutes it's that toxic to them.
I'm sure it's not good for humans but humans won't drop dead in a minute like birds will.

Freon is also highly toxic to birds.
If your air conditioner leaks freon into the house your birds will drop dead but humans won't even notice.

I will remember that the next time I heat a piano to over 400°.

Thanks to Jerry Groot and Dan Silverwood.

I made a paste with alcohol and teflon powder today.

I can imagine already how much easier some of it's uses will be now.

Thanks again.

Jean

Although I use Teflon powder sparingly on a regular basis, I do have concerns about the toxicity of its manufacturing - which has been proven to be a problem. Just because the end product isn't toxic, it doesn't follow that we should embrace the product without taking a look at all of its repercussions. We have to leave this planet for our grandchildren. We should always be looking for solutions that have the least harmful impact on the environment.

I used to use 2-part carbonless paper for my invoices. I then heard about how NCR (National Cash Register) has been involved in an ongoing law-suit over the tons of PCB's they dumped in the Fox River (http://www.foxriverwatch.com/NCR_corporation.html). So I went to using good old fashioned non-toxic carbon paper. Here's another interesting link: http://www.ewg.org/kid-safe-chemicals-act-blog/2010/07/a-little-bpa-along-with-your-change/

OK, Sparky, let me try again.

First off, it's not the Teflon that' extremely toxic to birds, but the thermal decomposition products.

Secondly, there is no rational foundation for the statement, "Bird owners should rid their house of teflon cooking pans." Risk is the combination of probability and severity of damage. The birds will only die if the pan overheats. But if it's used normally, they will be absolutely fine. I've never overheated a pan, least of all, a teflon-coated one. So to me, the potential threat my teflon pan poses to my two budgies, on the extremely off-beat chance that I overheat it, is no reason to throw it out. My teflon pan and my budgies are all in excellent health.

I don't throw my kettle or other pots 'n pans into the trash either just because my toddler could burn his fingers on them. Rather, I take due care when cooking.

If you still don't get what I don't get, never mind.

Abstract: An incident where five cockatiels (Nymphicus hollandicus) died within 30 minutes following exposure from a frying pan coated with the plastic polytetrafluoroethylene (900-284-0) (PTFE) that had accidentally overheated is reported. Within an hour the owner developed symptoms of polymer fume fever but recovered within 24 hours. A PTFE coated milk pan boiled dry for 15 minutes with the cockatiels in a cage in the next room. The birds were examined by a veterinary surgeon and were found to be normal except for the lungs, which were severely congested and edematous and were considered to be the cause of death. It is concluded that parakeets are unusually susceptable to the pyrolyses products of frying pans coated with plastic polytetrafluoroethylene.
Ref. Case of Polytetrafluoroethylene Poisoning in Cockatiels Accompanied by Polymer Fume Fever in the Owner by Blandford TB, Hughes R, Seamon PJ, Pattison M, Wilderspin MP. Veterinary Record, Vol. 96, pages 175-176, 6 references, 1975.

Well, getting back to topic: if your piano has been treated with teflon powder, you'd best throw it out, along with your teflon cooking pans. That way, the next time your house burns down, at least you can rest assured that it won't be the piano's teflon powder fumes that kill your cockatiels.

There is presently a study being conducted by 3 epedemiologists in an area near a chemical plant in the US concerning C8 (PFOA). I beleive its in Parkersburg WV where Dupont makes Teflon. Results should be out later in the year but will reflect the direction that possible lawsuits will go. 98% of the population in the US has PPB amounts of PFOA in their bloodstream according to testing and the material has ben manufactured since the 1940's. Teflon pan overheating will release the agents only if the surface has been scratched according to some studies. Incidently, perfumed scented candles, air fresheners and toxins from common houshold plants are the primary source of toxicity for housepet birds according to my veteranarian. If PFOA is of concern to someone, it is commonly found in stain resistant carpeting, carpet cleaning chemicals, microwave popcorn bags, Gore-Tex, house dust and food and water that come into contact of areas where the material has been dumped.

The MSDS (material safety data sheet, available from where you purchase a chemical)for Teflon was written for using the product in factories where the Teflon is heated. We don't use it that way. We use the powder at room temperature and apply it directly onto a surface. It is inert, but an inhalation hazard. It is also fine enough that it will enter your bloodstream through the skin. It will stay in your liver. Cumulative damage is a real issue. So often, self employed technicians ignore chemical (and other occupational) safety issues.
Years ago, I taught a class on chemical safety. Randy Potter modified my class notes and made a video.

If we are working in schools and places of business, there are legal requirements we need to pay attention to as far as chemical safety and workplace safety regulations. Here is a brochure from OHSA on guidelines for small business.

http://www.slideshare.net/ankenytemp/osha-for-small-business

I find it strange to read that Teflon can enter your system through the skin since I presume the size of the particles (microns) would be a factor in this ability. There are products out there such as Slik Dust (by Skin Strong) that are used by atheletes to dust their feet and shoes to prevent chaffing. They contain teflon also. My understanding is that Teflon is inert, that is the main reason that scrapings of the Teflon from cooking pans apparantly cause no harm if ingested. I am beginning to wonder if the Teflon scare is right up there with the mercury amalgam dental fillings. Many people have gotten their fillings replaced with conmposites instead and now they are finding that the composites contain bisphenals which has estrogen in it and along with the adhesives/binders used, are likely just as as toxic.

Reminds me of an often quoted 3rd graders report...

Socrates was a Greek philosopher who went around giving people good advice. They poisoned him.

Lisa,

To my knowledge, the particle size in typical dry lubricant teflon powders is about 2 to 10 microns. Intuitively, I would expect the skin to keep such a particle size out quite easily. Can you provide references for your statement that this is fine enough to enter the bloodstream through the skin?

(Nanoparticles are a different matter, of course. But the teflon in lubricating powders is not nano-sized.)

Then I suggest you take it up with avian veterinarians and professional parrot breeders, since that is what most of them recommend, instead of berating me for repeating the recommendation.

Just had this document come in from a colleague in Europe.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/4716.php

Mark- All my MSDS-bs es were in my tool case when it was stolen. I'll have to go look it up. Thanks for making me do this. I need new paperwork anyway.

Here is the link to the MSDS for powdered Teflon from Spurlock Specialty Tools. http://www.spurlocktools.com/id39.htm

The MSDS doesn't state anything about using the product as we do, directly applying it to friction points in the piano action.
Things that stuck out to me in this report are where the animal testing showed lung irritation after a single exposure. No skin irritant, but in the handling instructions, it states to avoid contact with eyes, skin and clothing. It also says to avoid contact with food and cigarettes.
I really would like to get answers because we're leaving this powdery stuff in pianos. Some of it will become airborne through the strings with all the other dust and stuff coming off the hammers through the strings when people play.

I don't think this MSDS is complete because it leaves out information for us like spill clean-up, disposal, and more clear information on irritant hazards instead of just stating that "exposure is unlikely".

This is the guide that is suggested reading on the powdered Teflon MSDS before reading the actual MSDS information:

http://www.fluoropolymers.org/news/APFOsafehandlingguide.pdf

On page 10 of this guide, there are statements on health hazards and toxicity. They are always talking about FPA's which are liquids. So since we use the product unheated and dry, the information is inconclusive. I'd err to the side of caution.

Well I just bought a new set of pans/pots (Tfal)and there instructions say season the pans
and don't overheat...and if you burn the pot toss it, isn't the current coating outlawed by 2015?
and thanks for the info about carpets..(stainmaster)

Hey Jean, two things I observed with the paste; it keeps the dust down to a minimum when working with this product. Secondly the alcohol draws the mix deeper into the buckskin. After a few applications over time, even when the knuckles are brushed the mixture remains impregnated in the buckskin to a certain degree. This cuts down on the use and handling of the product.

Thanks Dan,

I used it yesterday on a set of knuckles and it worked really well. Thanks again.

Jean

Does the client in question use a beat up teflon frying pan? Probably more dangerous eating a ton of it than accidentally snorting the microscopic amount thrown into the air by flailing knuckles.

Teflon is used on more than just cookware and it sometimes lines ovens and toaster ovens.

Some hair blowdryers even use teflon coasted metal inside for some reason.

I get regular email notices from a few avian and veterinary organizations (obviously I'm bird obsessed) and one of the regular horror stories that is always sent around is when someone's expensive parrots drop dead and all they did was use a brand new toaster oven or even blowdryer on their bird.

Yesterday I received such an email telling the story about a lady who's whole family was devastated and her kids won't stop crying because their African Grey parrot died within five minutes of her using a new table top toaster oven (that didn't overheat) that was a gift from her sister.

If you don't have birds it's not a problem but it amazes me that there's something going into the air through just normal use that seems to be completely innocuous to us.

But hey, I've got four birds and I've got a bottle of the Teflon powder at home for my piano (but no Teflon cookware) so I think the piano tech removing it is totally out of line.

I hope they didn't put their beloved parrot in the toaster oven.

These postings are from LinkedIn Piano Technican and Tuners forum;





(MSDS already posted here so I did not include again)


The MSDS referred to below is the one on Spurlock’s web site;
.

As many recent discovers I understand that fumes or PTFE degraded by heat may be a hazard for health (as most probably many substance, with the difference that we cook aliments in Teflon covered pans, so I understand this is a very sensitive question)

The pan making and Teflon making trade will protest and pay some people to influence the ones who make laws (if it have not been yet the case yet) so those products cannot be banished and no pertinent information can be easily find. As "how many names palm oil based products have, when in our food" (that one is interesting !).

This is the world as we are leaving it for our children. To get thru some real facts is rarely easy .

That is why I like the concept of "caution until I know better".

I know a few German top technicians that simply stopped using it and take talcum in replacement.

We need something on (in) the "leathers" to avoid graphite contamination from the jack (and to lessen friction indeed)so, when I'll have finished my 750 grs of lMP1100 I received as a free sample from Dupont Nemours I will use something else !
Joking in fact I use yet micro fine Teflon, but I try not to abuse of it, I also wonder, most of them "leather" beying polyurethane micro fiber fabrics today, that may also exists a possibly that a a reaction between 2 different chemicals occurs with the PTFE ..

A chemist may know better, I did not find one to explain me if there where a possibility of hazard between PTFE and polyurethane microfiber.

There has been a lot of buzz lately in regards to absorption of products through the skin that contain nano particles. Some makeup for instance contains these particles. Most government studies on absorption of materials through the skin are concentrating on particles less than 1 micron in size...a nanometer is 1/1000th of a micron. The teflon powders I have seen available for our work I believe have a particulate size in the 2-4 micron range...far to course to be absorbed through the skin unless exposed to an open cut.