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#1873236 04/03/12 06:01 PM
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We have in Vancouver, at the present time, a serious allegation made in writing by a local technician about the properties of Teflon powder (PTFE). This is the fine cut Teflon many technicians have been using for years to lubricate knuckles and other friction points.

There is a chemical used in the process of making Teflon (PTFE) that is called perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA) that is suspected to be a carcinogen but this product is not present in Teflon itself.

Here is a verbatim statement from this technician’s invoice;

Quote
Observed microfine white colored Teflon lubricating powder on the hammer shank knuckles. Removed powder as it is highly suspect being a cancer causing agent as it gets airborne.


This is an outrageous statement to make to a client and owner of a recently purchased piano with no substantiation or peer reviewed science to backstop the claim made.

Have any of the technicians here ever heard this before? If we have any chemical experts here your comments are a welcome addition.

Comments and opinions from everyone please.

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I am no chemist but I do know it is unsafe to transport Teflon across borders this way.

I personally use Teflon powder when needed.


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Getting any charges to stick may be difficult. grin


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Hey, I use it all the time. Gotta die of something. Might as well be slippery on the way out! smile


Jerry Groot RPT
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Good one Rod, that's funny...

Hey Jerry,
I use the stuff all the time too. I know lots of tech who do. This product is sold by every piano tool/parts supplier I know.

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Nope. That's a new one for me. Not only do I coat knuckles with Teflon powder, before they receive it, they get sprayed with TFL-50.

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That's just crazy.
It is the PFOA used in the manufacture of Teflon that is a problem for workers and Teflon can break down and produce toxic compounds in high heat.
(Teflon itself is extremely toxic to birds and bird owners should rid their house of Teflon cooking pans).
But powdered Teflon on parts is not going to harm anyone.
Even if Teflon itself was proven to be a problem it is going to be because of inhalation.
If the powder is on the piano's knuckles then it should stay there and only by making it airborne could it possibly cause any problem.
This is often the suggested remedy for Asbestos in many cases. If asbestos (which is known to be HIGHLY dangerous) is left alone it will not cause a problem. It is only when one starts removing it or disturbing it that it can cause problems since it can then be inhaled.
The tech that removed it is either extremely paranoid for no reason or he was looking for something to bill the client for.

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Originally Posted by beethoven986
Nope. That's a new one for me. Not only do I coat knuckles with Teflon powder, before they receive it, they get sprayed with TFL-50.


Not familiar with that one. I expect it is a aerosol spray lube of some sort?

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Originally Posted by Sparky McBiff
That's just crazy.
It is the PFOA used in the manufacture of Teflon that is a problem for workers and Teflon can break down and produce toxic compounds in high heat.
(Teflon itself is extremely toxic to birds and bird owners should rid their house of Teflon cooking pans).
But powdered Teflon on parts is not going to harm anyone.
Even if Teflon itself was proven to be a problem it is going to be because of inhalation.
If the powder is on the piano's knuckles then it should stay there and only by making it airborne could it possibly cause any problem.
This is often the suggested remedy for Asbestos in many cases. If asbestos (which is known to be HIGHLY dangerous) is left alone it will not cause a problem. It is only when one starts removing it or disturbing it that it can cause problems since it can then be inhaled.
The tech that removed it is either extremely paranoid for no reason or he was looking for something to bill the client for.



Sparky this is what I have read in my research.Teflon itself does not begin to break down until temperatures of 482 F°

So unless we are placing the clients piano in a pizza oven….

Jerry gave me a neat trick to use with this Teflon powder a couple of years back. He mentioned that his father used to mix powder up into a paste like form with isopropyl, and then apply it to the knuckles.

I had never heard of this before so I tried it out.

At times some older knuckles tend to get soft and mushy as the buckskin stretches. The wire brush seems to make these types of knuckles worse. What this paste does is makes the buckskin shrink slightly and that hardens up the knuckle a bit making for a more positive let-off sequence with the jack. I found this out by trying it on an old set of knuckles that were giving problems.

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I agree about inhalation. The powder is extremely fine and can penetrate deep in the lungs.
I worry about this as much as sawdust.


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Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos
At times some older knuckles tend to get soft and mushy as the buckskin stretches. The wire brush seems to make these types of knuckles worse. What this paste does is makes the buckskin shrink slightly and that hardens up the knuckle a bit making for a more positive let-off sequence with the jack. I found this out by trying it on an old set of knuckles that were giving problems.


Silverwood: Is this an alternative to bolstering the knuckles or is this a remedy for an issue with the buckskin itself?


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Wow, great memory Dan! I've used it that way in my shop for years. The alcohol dries out leaving the Teflon or, powered soap stone deeper into the felt and knuckles along with a lot less of a mess. When mixed up in a bowl, when the alcohol dries, what's left? Nothing but Teflon.... smile


Jerry Groot RPT
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Gene,
I would agree with the observations about fine particles. A variety of small particles are drawn into the breathing apparatus on a daily basis. But this does not make one of them a cancer causing agent as claimed.

RJ10,
Thanks for the question. I found this to be an alternative to bolster in some cases only. If the buckskin is really quite loose then it will not work. I tried this on a set of knuckles where the piano had been dormant for a long period and it helped a lot with the flat spots. But on other knuckles not so much. Really a trial an error thing…..

Jerry,
Yes the soapstone that is the part I forgot. I like the paste thing. Easy to apply and keeps the dust down.
It is true; the alcohol draws the Teflon deep into the buckskin and remains for longer periods without re-application. That is the part I liked, when the bowl dried out.

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Teflon is absolutely non toxic, It’s the most inert polymer on earth. It can, however, be an irritant in your lungs or eyes. It decomposes above 400C (750F).


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Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted by beethoven986
Nope. That's a new one for me. Not only do I coat knuckles with Teflon powder, before they receive it, they get sprayed with TFL-50.


Not familiar with that one. I expect it is a aerosol spray lube of some sort?


Yes. It is a Teflon based dry film lube. You can get it from Pianotek Supply. http://www.tfl50.com/

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Originally Posted by JackH
Teflon is absolutely non toxic, It’s the most inert polymer on earth. It can, however, be an irritant in your lungs or eyes. It decomposes above 400C (750F).



This is what concerns me about teflon powder. Once it lodges in your lungs it will stay there indefinitely rather than decompose and expel unless it is possible to migrate out. There may be a cumulative build up in the lungs during a lifetime of inhaling tiny amounts every so often. Now, potential residual Perfluorooctanoic acid is a worry also.


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Originally Posted by Sparky McBiff
(Teflon itself is extremely toxic to birds and bird owners should rid their house of Teflon cooking pans).


Teflon (or its decomposition products) is only released from the cooking pans when they are overheated. And by the time it's actually released, it's bad not only for the birds, but for everyone in the house. So I don't quite get this statement...


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Some emails came in overnight from technicians; I haven’t been able to ask them about posting their names so this is the email text verbatim;


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I use it a fair amount in my work, and have no worries about it. From what I have heard, teflon itself is inert, it is the manufacturing process that can cause cancer if one is exposed. I may stand corrected, though. I have used it for over 15 years with no ill effects. When used in reasonable quantities (i.e. not too much) it does wonders for knuckle lubrication and reduction of excess friction.




Quote
I have used Teflon for many years as described, on knuckles to help a squeak or 2, on trapwork to ease pedal operations, and on key pins when installing new key bushings, all AS NEEDED. I bought a pound of it 10 years ago and have almost all of it. Very little is needed to do what I like to do with it. I essentially have a lifetime supply.

As for its toxicity, I believe you have received significant answers and opinions from the pianotech list. I do monitor that list also. The person that said the 'burden of proof lies with the accuser' is a perfect example of a recent situation I had with the opinion of another tech:

I came to a piano with a very heavy and not very responsive action. The client said the previous tech could do no better than what was there, and parts would have to be replaced. I demonstrated, with one key, how a few adjustments to the action will make the whole instrument play much better. No Teflon was needed, by the way! The client was very happy and had me make that improvement to the rest of the piano. The "burden of proof" was in my court, just as the burden is with this other technician.

I have attached a MSDS of Teflon for your information. As for my personal safety, I do wear gloves when I handle Teflon, but as you can see from the MSDS, it is pretty non-toxic unless you heat it up to 300 degrees F. I have no reason to do that.

I hope this answers your question. Please feel free to ask if you have any more.

Thank you,


Here are two piano parts supplier responses. Both of these suppliers are well know to all technicians.


Quote
We've been selling our products throughout Canada for the past 25 years.

Since 5 years, we are selling a product under the name of Teflon powder to lubricate pieces in
a piano action (grand knuckles).

As far as we know, under normal circumstances, that product can be used without reservation, as
it has been used by piano technicians in Canada and United States


Quote
Here are links to some articles about PTFE (Teflon) health risks or lack thereof. As you will read, the concern seems to be over the possible dangers of a chemical that is used in making Teflon (and other products), which is not present in Teflon itself:


Some links for reading:


http://www2.dupont.com/Teflon/en_US/products/safety/index.html

http://www.cancer.org/Cancer/Cancer.../teflon-and-perfluorooctanoic-acid--pfoa

http://www.straightdope.com/columns...d-pans-a-health-risk-to-birds-and-humans

http://video.about.com/environment/Is-Teflon-Cookware-Safe-.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8404384/ (Be sure to read all the way to the end, especially the last sentence.)

http://www.webmd.com/cancer/features/teflon-pans


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http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1976909_1976895_1976902,00.html

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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie

This is what concerns me about teflon powder. Once it lodges in your lungs it will stay there indefinitely rather than decompose and expel unless it is possible to migrate out. There may be a cumulative build up in the lungs during a lifetime of inhaling tiny amounts every so often. Now, potential residual Perfluorooctanoic acid is a worry also.


Chris,
There is no evidence that the fine particles remain in your lungs indefinitely any more than any other microscopic particles you absorb during the day. Once again I have to state that this does not make a substance a cancer causing agent as per the written claim by this local technician.

3m has stopped making PFOS in yr 2000. There is a stewardship program to phase out PFOA by 2015.

Interesting to note in the provided links above that that any residual PFOA can only be activated by heat above a certain point.

I think we need to be careful making assertions without any facts to backstop the claims made. This is the problem with the local technician here. He is making opinionated statements as facts in writing without any clear peer-reviewed science to substantiate his claims.

Dupont and 3M will take these claims seriously. That has the potential to earn him a visit to the court docket in defense of his claims.

When I have pressed this person for science to back up his assertion I get the below as a response now stated as only his opinion:


Quote
As piano technicians we are too close for comfort in my opinion and as such I have spoken at meetings of the local chapter of the Piano Technicians Guild.

I have spoken about the Teflon powder several times over the years. The last time was when Steven Brady, the author of a book on piano care (which I think is called 'Under the Lid' but I would have to look that up) came to speak to the Chapter.


Can any of the local technicians in this chapter confirm this?

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