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#1874781 - 04/06/12 05:08 PM Roland 700nx...what am I missing?
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
I purchased a 700nx at the end of last year for one of my schools I teach at after auditioning the thing through headphones. Well, I got it to my school and hooked it up to the Roland keyboard and it sounded bad to say the least. I took the keyboard home to my place to try with my bigger Roland amp I have there. Still didn't sound good.
At that, I checked through this and other forums about keyboard amps and saw that they weren't the best way to amplify sound for keyboards. So...the 700 sat unused except for when students used it with headphones.

Flash forward 9 months. For the same school I needed to get a PA system for our jazz band concerts that students could set up without breaking things. Purchased a Bose L1 model 2. Well, after spending a total of $5500 for the keyboard and PA, the 700nx STILL sounds pretty lame through the Bose.
Actually, to clarify it's the piano sounds that sound bad. The other patches are decent for what they are.
Am I missing something? The Bose has the tone match engine set to 'keyboard', the two bass units are hooked up correctly with the supplied wires, and the keyboard otherwise sounds great through headphones.
I've also tried tweeking the equilizer settings on the 700nx, played with compression, sound focus, etc. Nothing sounds satisfying.
Any help would be appreciated to solve this dilemma, keeping in mind that I'm not in the position to get rid of the 700nx.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874797 - 04/06/12 05:29 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Bose is the joke of the audio world. Don't you know the saying... Bose blows.
_________________________
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Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#1874801 - 04/06/12 05:30 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Hideki Matsui]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Bose is the joke of the audio world. Don't you know the saying... Bose blows.

What a thoughtful response. Thank you for your deep insight into this subject.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874803 - 04/06/12 05:32 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
It's the truth. If you want me to elaborate, I can, but I wonder what led you to Bose. Any chance of returning that?
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#1874807 - 04/06/12 05:40 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3704
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Have to agree, Bose is not about authentic audio reproduction. It's stylised sound at best.

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#1874808 - 04/06/12 05:42 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1555
Have you tried Peavey guitar amps? I heard keyboard players use bass amps..

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#1874811 - 04/06/12 05:52 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2469
Loc: UK
You are using line-out and not headphone sockets to connect to the various external amps and speakers you have tried?

There are a few older threads on here about getting the best sound out of a FP-7F and I think a 700NX for home use. Various solutions or preferences. Dewster even built his own powered speaker system. Don't know about for bigger settings.

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#1874817 - 04/06/12 06:13 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Is the Bose amp stereo or mono? Are you feeding a stereo or mono signal?
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Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1874819 - 04/06/12 06:26 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Hideki Matsui]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
It's the truth. If you want me to elaborate, I can, but I wonder what led you to Bose. Any chance of returning that?


I like the Bose, actually. Just don't like it with this keyboard. So apparently truth is subjective. I am curious about your elaboration though. Do tell. Do you have direct experience with the L1 system?
And yes, I could return the Bose, but then I wouldn't have a portable PA for the rest of the instruments.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874820 - 04/06/12 06:27 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Bob Newbie]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Bob Newbie
Have you tried Peavey guitar amps? I heard keyboard players use bass amps..

I'm not looking for another amp, thanks. For what it's worth, I tried the 700nx through five different amps including two bass amps, and none sounded decent.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874822 - 04/06/12 06:30 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
I would suggest checking out QSC K10 or K12 speakers (stereo pair, preferably). These may be among the best for keyboard amplification, currently.
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#1874823 - 04/06/12 06:33 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Melodialworks Music]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Is the Bose amp stereo or mono? Are you feeding a stereo or mono signal?


The Bose is a mono unit, so I went from L/mono jack to one channel.
I was just on another forum and I've learned that the stereo patches from Roland, among others, don't really translate well to mono.

The Bose is intended to sit behind the player/s to add a directionality to the sound.

I'm guessing that I need to look further into if the 700NX has some tweeking in order to Pan the stereo sound to L or R, then see how this sounds, because apparently the Mono Grand may not be the best sample compared to the Concert Stereo Grand.

I also could run the NX through both the Bose and another amp to produce stereo, but I was wanting to simplify the set-up and eliminate extra amplifiers on the stage.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874826 - 04/06/12 06:38 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: voxpops]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: voxpops
I would suggest checking out QSC K10 or K12 speakers (stereo pair, preferably). These may be among the best for keyboard amplification, currently.


Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to buy separate amps/speakers for different instruments at this point. That's why I chose the Bose. It's purpose is to amplify the wind instruments, bass, and guitar as well as the keyboard. The only shortfall currently is the keyboard sound. Everything else is quite decent out of the box. I have yet to try any equalization other than the limited attempts for the NX.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874828 - 04/06/12 06:43 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
I was just on another forum and I've learned that the stereo patches from Roland, among others, don't really translate well to mono.


I think this is a big part of your problem. I would also point out that whilst the SN pianos are very good with the intimate and revealing nature of good headphones, many people seem to feel that the Roland piano sound lacks punch and authority when amplified.

I associate Bose with (over priced) lifestyle type context, not pro audio. I accept your reasons for buying it and also that you like it but voxpops has made a couple of suggestions above that would blow the Bose into the weeds in every way for your purposes. And if you can run stereo, do.

Good luck,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1874839 - 04/06/12 07:04 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: EssBrace]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
but voxpops has made a couple of suggestions above that would blow the Bose into the weeds in every way for your purposes. And if you can run stereo, do.

Good luck,

Steve


Yes, I just checked out the website for the K12s. It looks like they are mounted PA speakers though, unless used as moniters. I'm not sure they would be what I need given my requirements of ease of set up by students, but I'm sure they're great in every other respect.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874929 - 04/06/12 10:26 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1720
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Bose is the joke of the audio world. Don't you know the saying... Bose blows.

What a thoughtful response. Thank you for your deep insight into this subject.


He's however quite right ... The bose (while innovative in some ways) is rubbish for keyboards. It's designed for a solo acts with a acoustic guitar and microphone.
The Bose in MONO ...your RD700NX is Stereo ....therefore you are going to always get a compromised sound quality.
If you don't want a pair of K12's (and you should want these ...they work everywhere and easily are the #1 choice) a keyboard amp is fine but a STEREO one.
The motion Sound KP-500SN is perfect. Best Keyboard amp ever made.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1874936 - 04/06/12 10:48 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

The Bose is a mono unit, so I went from L/mono jack to one channel.


I would say that's your problem. The amp is in mono, but the keyboard in stereo. Monitor in stereo. It will make a huge difference.


Edited by Melodialworks Music (04/06/12 10:50 PM)
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1874939 - 04/06/12 10:57 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Melodialworks Music]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

The Bose is a mono unit, so I went from L/mono jack to one channel.


I would say that's your problem. The amp is in mono, but the keyboard in stereo. Monitor in stereo. It will make a huge difference.


Are you saying use two inputs from the NX, or buy a stereo monitor?
I'll try the former when I get to the keyboard again. If that doesn't work, I may just have to look closer at the K12s.

Thanks for your input on this.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874943 - 04/06/12 11:04 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Dr Popper]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Bose is the joke of the audio world. Don't you know the saying... Bose blows.

What a thoughtful response. Thank you for your deep insight into this subject.


He's however quite right ... The bose (while innovative in some ways) is rubbish for keyboards. It's designed for a solo acts with a acoustic guitar and microphone.
The Bose in MONO ...your RD700NX is Stereo ....therefore you are going to always get a compromised sound quality.
If you don't want a pair of K12's (and you should want these ...they work everywhere and easily are the #1 choice) a keyboard amp is fine but a STEREO one.
The motion Sound KP-500SN is perfect. Best Keyboard amp ever made.




Well, I'm hoping you're wrong, but suspect you're right about the Bose not being suitable for keyboards. Unfortunately this doesn't improve my situation though since I'm not prepared to have a PA system mounted on stands.
And another downside is that now I'm intrigued about getting the K12s for my own use, and they don't look cheap. Are they about $700 each? Is there a better price than that?
I'll also check out the KP 500SN-- I haven't heard of this, and don't think I've seen one locally, but will start looking.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874944 - 04/06/12 11:07 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3704
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Well, I guess if you like the Bose so much, you'll have to buy a second one so you can have stereo!

But really it sounds like you just don't like your piano.

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#1874963 - 04/06/12 11:48 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 765
I think the Roland amps would sound better in stereo. For years I used two KC-100's for stage monitors in stereo. My DPs changed but the stereo samples always sounded very good.

What I would try is using the Bose for the right side of the piano and put your Roland on left side of piano going through the left output of the piano. With the proper levels I bet you can make it sound pretty nice.

I use 25+ year old GK keyboard amps with my FP-4 and think it sounds pretty good, not to mention some very portable full range speakers with 12" speakers.


Edited by 36251 (04/06/12 11:49 PM)
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#1874981 - 04/07/12 01:13 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: 36251]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1733
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
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2005 NY Steinway D

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#1874987 - 04/07/12 01:38 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: ando]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: ando


But really it sounds like you just don't like your piano.

Not through speakers yet. Pretty nice through cans though.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874991 - 04/07/12 01:49 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Dave Ferris]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

I had the Motion sound KP200 amp for piano and it was not good, very grating and brittle. Haven't heard the the 500 though.

Thanks for chiming in, Dave. Upon checking the only local Motion product is a KP100 available for about $900, but it sounds like I shouldn't even bother considering it.
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

Trying to find something that works well for guitar, bass AND piano will be difficult. Piano, vocals and sax will sound good through the full range EVs but bass & guitar pretty much need their own dedicated amp.

And so continues my woeful saga. Maybe I'm a bit of a moron, but I still like the Bose so far for the reasons I described in some previous posts.
I guess to put things back in some sort of perspective maybe the keyboard thing is quite minor in the long run. I'm not the one playing it, and it will be always low in a mix in any case. The Bose is primarily for the horn solos and the guitar and basses (yes, two currently...)
I'm just a bit disappointed that something that is supposed to be idiot-proof has proven otherwise.
All that being said, I'm still curious to see if plugging the thing in differently (two outputs to two inputs) will somehow positively affect the outcome, but I won't know until Tuesday when I get to the school again.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874993 - 04/07/12 01:56 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: 36251]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: 36251

What I would try is using the Bose for the right side of the piano and put your Roland on left side of piano going through the left output of the piano. With the proper levels I bet you can make it sound pretty nice.

This is worth a shot. But as I recall my Roland amp at school is a 50 I think. I also have a JC120 that I could possibly use. The trouble is I'm starting to clutter the stage area again with another amp, and for my purposes it would make more sense to have another bass amp rather than something for the keyboard.

It appears though that if I was going to use a system for gigging the Bose as it currently stands would not be the best choice. It's weird because it seems that many keyboard players have had success with it, at least so they maintain on the Bose forum. Can they all really be deluded?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874995 - 04/07/12 02:03 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1733
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D

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#1875032 - 04/07/12 06:57 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Dave Ferris]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 765
My friend just bought two L1 compact Bose systems. I heard them in small club and they sounded great and very compact. I think they're kind of expensive. Each only have 6 drivers and 1 8" driver for bass.

No personal experience with Bose but the co. is still around making money with a one-price take it or leave it approach.
_________________________
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#1875078 - 04/07/12 09:30 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Europe, Poland
In my experience most piano sound issues has to do with medium frequencies sound. Often you can't do anything with sound of certain speakers or mixer, but you could try experiment with slight adjustments in medium frequencies; it could sound slightly better.

In other case, buy something separate for piano only, like good active speaker. I doubt mono/stereo aspect is the only problem, IMHO through good system Roland should sound good even in mono.
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Roland FP-4

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#1875229 - 04/07/12 04:29 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
If you're worried about the price and positioning of the K10/K12s, you might want to consider the solution I recently adopted. I'm not a fan of Roland keyboard amps (to put it mildly), but I took a chance on a mint Roland SA300 "stage amplifier". This is a twin unit comprising two 25lbs components. The top unit houses a mixer/amp plus a couple of 6" speakers providing a stereo (sort of) image, and the bottom is a 12" sub-woofer. Effectively it's a 350w 2.1 system.

It's not perfect, but I find it a great compromise. Because the top unit sits above the sub-woofer, and is slightly angled upwards, it's useful for monitoring. There are four stereo channels, all capable of receiving either 1/4" or XLR plugs. Two channels have auto feedback control, and the other two (somewhat strangely) have phantom power options. There is reverb and delay available. Unfortunately, EQ is global. It sounds much better than the KC amps, and the stereo separation, while minimal, means that I don't lose stereo effects, or end up with thin-sounding pianos.

One really useful feature is that you can run the top unit independently (e.g. just as a monitor), and it automatically detects the absence of the sub, and adjusts EQ to compensate. There is also a stereo link option, if you want to use a second amp/speaker for wider separation, and you can run a line out to the FOH PA.

I think that Roland may have discontinued this model, and its sibling SA1000 (optimized for piano and organ, but also with fewer inputs and features), but there are still a few knocking about. I paid $600 for mine (almost new), but retail is $1299. I've seen open box ones for around $800.


Edited by voxpops (04/07/12 06:44 PM)
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#1875294 - 04/07/12 07:33 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Jake Johnson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/08
Posts: 84
The only time I've played a Roland 700NX, it was hooked to two Peavey KB3's. These are not the same thing as the Peavey KB300's. One 12" cone and 60 watts. These are not expensive, and many stores carry them (Sam Ash and Guitar Center that I know of) that also carry the 700NX, so they would be easy to test out.

Sounded very good: clear mids and a good balanced bass. No overwhelming treble or nasal treble. Nice balance of sound.

More generally, have you considered going back to the shop where you bought your 700NX, assuming that you didn't get it online, and talking to their pro-audio people about their suggestions for getting a better sound? I think they would be willing to let you hook up a 700NX to several sets of monitors to compare the results.


Edited by Jake Johnson (04/08/12 02:25 AM)

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