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#1874781 - 04/06/12 05:08 PM Roland 700nx...what am I missing?
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
I purchased a 700nx at the end of last year for one of my schools I teach at after auditioning the thing through headphones. Well, I got it to my school and hooked it up to the Roland keyboard and it sounded bad to say the least. I took the keyboard home to my place to try with my bigger Roland amp I have there. Still didn't sound good.
At that, I checked through this and other forums about keyboard amps and saw that they weren't the best way to amplify sound for keyboards. So...the 700 sat unused except for when students used it with headphones.

Flash forward 9 months. For the same school I needed to get a PA system for our jazz band concerts that students could set up without breaking things. Purchased a Bose L1 model 2. Well, after spending a total of $5500 for the keyboard and PA, the 700nx STILL sounds pretty lame through the Bose.
Actually, to clarify it's the piano sounds that sound bad. The other patches are decent for what they are.
Am I missing something? The Bose has the tone match engine set to 'keyboard', the two bass units are hooked up correctly with the supplied wires, and the keyboard otherwise sounds great through headphones.
I've also tried tweeking the equilizer settings on the 700nx, played with compression, sound focus, etc. Nothing sounds satisfying.
Any help would be appreciated to solve this dilemma, keeping in mind that I'm not in the position to get rid of the 700nx.
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Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874797 - 04/06/12 05:29 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Bose is the joke of the audio world. Don't you know the saying... Bose blows.
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Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#1874801 - 04/06/12 05:30 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Hideki Matsui]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Bose is the joke of the audio world. Don't you know the saying... Bose blows.

What a thoughtful response. Thank you for your deep insight into this subject.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874803 - 04/06/12 05:32 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
It's the truth. If you want me to elaborate, I can, but I wonder what led you to Bose. Any chance of returning that?
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#1874807 - 04/06/12 05:40 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3698
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Have to agree, Bose is not about authentic audio reproduction. It's stylised sound at best.

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#1874808 - 04/06/12 05:42 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1555
Have you tried Peavey guitar amps? I heard keyboard players use bass amps..

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#1874811 - 04/06/12 05:52 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2469
Loc: UK
You are using line-out and not headphone sockets to connect to the various external amps and speakers you have tried?

There are a few older threads on here about getting the best sound out of a FP-7F and I think a 700NX for home use. Various solutions or preferences. Dewster even built his own powered speaker system. Don't know about for bigger settings.

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#1874817 - 04/06/12 06:13 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Is the Bose amp stereo or mono? Are you feeding a stereo or mono signal?
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Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
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#1874819 - 04/06/12 06:26 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Hideki Matsui]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
It's the truth. If you want me to elaborate, I can, but I wonder what led you to Bose. Any chance of returning that?


I like the Bose, actually. Just don't like it with this keyboard. So apparently truth is subjective. I am curious about your elaboration though. Do tell. Do you have direct experience with the L1 system?
And yes, I could return the Bose, but then I wouldn't have a portable PA for the rest of the instruments.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874820 - 04/06/12 06:27 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Bob Newbie]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Bob Newbie
Have you tried Peavey guitar amps? I heard keyboard players use bass amps..

I'm not looking for another amp, thanks. For what it's worth, I tried the 700nx through five different amps including two bass amps, and none sounded decent.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874822 - 04/06/12 06:30 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
I would suggest checking out QSC K10 or K12 speakers (stereo pair, preferably). These may be among the best for keyboard amplification, currently.
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#1874823 - 04/06/12 06:33 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Melodialworks Music]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Is the Bose amp stereo or mono? Are you feeding a stereo or mono signal?


The Bose is a mono unit, so I went from L/mono jack to one channel.
I was just on another forum and I've learned that the stereo patches from Roland, among others, don't really translate well to mono.

The Bose is intended to sit behind the player/s to add a directionality to the sound.

I'm guessing that I need to look further into if the 700NX has some tweeking in order to Pan the stereo sound to L or R, then see how this sounds, because apparently the Mono Grand may not be the best sample compared to the Concert Stereo Grand.

I also could run the NX through both the Bose and another amp to produce stereo, but I was wanting to simplify the set-up and eliminate extra amplifiers on the stage.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874826 - 04/06/12 06:38 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: voxpops]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: voxpops
I would suggest checking out QSC K10 or K12 speakers (stereo pair, preferably). These may be among the best for keyboard amplification, currently.


Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to buy separate amps/speakers for different instruments at this point. That's why I chose the Bose. It's purpose is to amplify the wind instruments, bass, and guitar as well as the keyboard. The only shortfall currently is the keyboard sound. Everything else is quite decent out of the box. I have yet to try any equalization other than the limited attempts for the NX.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874828 - 04/06/12 06:43 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
I was just on another forum and I've learned that the stereo patches from Roland, among others, don't really translate well to mono.


I think this is a big part of your problem. I would also point out that whilst the SN pianos are very good with the intimate and revealing nature of good headphones, many people seem to feel that the Roland piano sound lacks punch and authority when amplified.

I associate Bose with (over priced) lifestyle type context, not pro audio. I accept your reasons for buying it and also that you like it but voxpops has made a couple of suggestions above that would blow the Bose into the weeds in every way for your purposes. And if you can run stereo, do.

Good luck,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1874839 - 04/06/12 07:04 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: EssBrace]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
but voxpops has made a couple of suggestions above that would blow the Bose into the weeds in every way for your purposes. And if you can run stereo, do.

Good luck,

Steve


Yes, I just checked out the website for the K12s. It looks like they are mounted PA speakers though, unless used as moniters. I'm not sure they would be what I need given my requirements of ease of set up by students, but I'm sure they're great in every other respect.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874929 - 04/06/12 10:26 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1720
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Bose is the joke of the audio world. Don't you know the saying... Bose blows.

What a thoughtful response. Thank you for your deep insight into this subject.


He's however quite right ... The bose (while innovative in some ways) is rubbish for keyboards. It's designed for a solo acts with a acoustic guitar and microphone.
The Bose in MONO ...your RD700NX is Stereo ....therefore you are going to always get a compromised sound quality.
If you don't want a pair of K12's (and you should want these ...they work everywhere and easily are the #1 choice) a keyboard amp is fine but a STEREO one.
The motion Sound KP-500SN is perfect. Best Keyboard amp ever made.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1874936 - 04/06/12 10:48 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

The Bose is a mono unit, so I went from L/mono jack to one channel.


I would say that's your problem. The amp is in mono, but the keyboard in stereo. Monitor in stereo. It will make a huge difference.


Edited by Melodialworks Music (04/06/12 10:50 PM)
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1874939 - 04/06/12 10:57 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Melodialworks Music]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

The Bose is a mono unit, so I went from L/mono jack to one channel.


I would say that's your problem. The amp is in mono, but the keyboard in stereo. Monitor in stereo. It will make a huge difference.


Are you saying use two inputs from the NX, or buy a stereo monitor?
I'll try the former when I get to the keyboard again. If that doesn't work, I may just have to look closer at the K12s.

Thanks for your input on this.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874943 - 04/06/12 11:04 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Dr Popper]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Bose is the joke of the audio world. Don't you know the saying... Bose blows.

What a thoughtful response. Thank you for your deep insight into this subject.


He's however quite right ... The bose (while innovative in some ways) is rubbish for keyboards. It's designed for a solo acts with a acoustic guitar and microphone.
The Bose in MONO ...your RD700NX is Stereo ....therefore you are going to always get a compromised sound quality.
If you don't want a pair of K12's (and you should want these ...they work everywhere and easily are the #1 choice) a keyboard amp is fine but a STEREO one.
The motion Sound KP-500SN is perfect. Best Keyboard amp ever made.




Well, I'm hoping you're wrong, but suspect you're right about the Bose not being suitable for keyboards. Unfortunately this doesn't improve my situation though since I'm not prepared to have a PA system mounted on stands.
And another downside is that now I'm intrigued about getting the K12s for my own use, and they don't look cheap. Are they about $700 each? Is there a better price than that?
I'll also check out the KP 500SN-- I haven't heard of this, and don't think I've seen one locally, but will start looking.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874944 - 04/06/12 11:07 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3698
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Well, I guess if you like the Bose so much, you'll have to buy a second one so you can have stereo!

But really it sounds like you just don't like your piano.

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#1874963 - 04/06/12 11:48 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 765
I think the Roland amps would sound better in stereo. For years I used two KC-100's for stage monitors in stereo. My DPs changed but the stereo samples always sounded very good.

What I would try is using the Bose for the right side of the piano and put your Roland on left side of piano going through the left output of the piano. With the proper levels I bet you can make it sound pretty nice.

I use 25+ year old GK keyboard amps with my FP-4 and think it sounds pretty good, not to mention some very portable full range speakers with 12" speakers.


Edited by 36251 (04/06/12 11:49 PM)
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#1874981 - 04/07/12 01:13 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: 36251]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1733
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
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2005 NY Steinway D

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#1874987 - 04/07/12 01:38 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: ando]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: ando


But really it sounds like you just don't like your piano.

Not through speakers yet. Pretty nice through cans though.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874991 - 04/07/12 01:49 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Dave Ferris]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

I had the Motion sound KP200 amp for piano and it was not good, very grating and brittle. Haven't heard the the 500 though.

Thanks for chiming in, Dave. Upon checking the only local Motion product is a KP100 available for about $900, but it sounds like I shouldn't even bother considering it.
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

Trying to find something that works well for guitar, bass AND piano will be difficult. Piano, vocals and sax will sound good through the full range EVs but bass & guitar pretty much need their own dedicated amp.

And so continues my woeful saga. Maybe I'm a bit of a moron, but I still like the Bose so far for the reasons I described in some previous posts.
I guess to put things back in some sort of perspective maybe the keyboard thing is quite minor in the long run. I'm not the one playing it, and it will be always low in a mix in any case. The Bose is primarily for the horn solos and the guitar and basses (yes, two currently...)
I'm just a bit disappointed that something that is supposed to be idiot-proof has proven otherwise.
All that being said, I'm still curious to see if plugging the thing in differently (two outputs to two inputs) will somehow positively affect the outcome, but I won't know until Tuesday when I get to the school again.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874993 - 04/07/12 01:56 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: 36251]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: 36251

What I would try is using the Bose for the right side of the piano and put your Roland on left side of piano going through the left output of the piano. With the proper levels I bet you can make it sound pretty nice.

This is worth a shot. But as I recall my Roland amp at school is a 50 I think. I also have a JC120 that I could possibly use. The trouble is I'm starting to clutter the stage area again with another amp, and for my purposes it would make more sense to have another bass amp rather than something for the keyboard.

It appears though that if I was going to use a system for gigging the Bose as it currently stands would not be the best choice. It's weird because it seems that many keyboard players have had success with it, at least so they maintain on the Bose forum. Can they all really be deluded?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1874995 - 04/07/12 02:03 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1733
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D

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#1875032 - 04/07/12 06:57 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Dave Ferris]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 765
My friend just bought two L1 compact Bose systems. I heard them in small club and they sounded great and very compact. I think they're kind of expensive. Each only have 6 drivers and 1 8" driver for bass.

No personal experience with Bose but the co. is still around making money with a one-price take it or leave it approach.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#1875078 - 04/07/12 09:30 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Europe, Poland
In my experience most piano sound issues has to do with medium frequencies sound. Often you can't do anything with sound of certain speakers or mixer, but you could try experiment with slight adjustments in medium frequencies; it could sound slightly better.

In other case, buy something separate for piano only, like good active speaker. I doubt mono/stereo aspect is the only problem, IMHO through good system Roland should sound good even in mono.
_________________________
Roland FP-4

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#1875229 - 04/07/12 04:29 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
If you're worried about the price and positioning of the K10/K12s, you might want to consider the solution I recently adopted. I'm not a fan of Roland keyboard amps (to put it mildly), but I took a chance on a mint Roland SA300 "stage amplifier". This is a twin unit comprising two 25lbs components. The top unit houses a mixer/amp plus a couple of 6" speakers providing a stereo (sort of) image, and the bottom is a 12" sub-woofer. Effectively it's a 350w 2.1 system.

It's not perfect, but I find it a great compromise. Because the top unit sits above the sub-woofer, and is slightly angled upwards, it's useful for monitoring. There are four stereo channels, all capable of receiving either 1/4" or XLR plugs. Two channels have auto feedback control, and the other two (somewhat strangely) have phantom power options. There is reverb and delay available. Unfortunately, EQ is global. It sounds much better than the KC amps, and the stereo separation, while minimal, means that I don't lose stereo effects, or end up with thin-sounding pianos.

One really useful feature is that you can run the top unit independently (e.g. just as a monitor), and it automatically detects the absence of the sub, and adjusts EQ to compensate. There is also a stereo link option, if you want to use a second amp/speaker for wider separation, and you can run a line out to the FOH PA.

I think that Roland may have discontinued this model, and its sibling SA1000 (optimized for piano and organ, but also with fewer inputs and features), but there are still a few knocking about. I paid $600 for mine (almost new), but retail is $1299. I've seen open box ones for around $800.


Edited by voxpops (04/07/12 06:44 PM)
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#1875294 - 04/07/12 07:33 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Jake Johnson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/08
Posts: 84
The only time I've played a Roland 700NX, it was hooked to two Peavey KB3's. These are not the same thing as the Peavey KB300's. One 12" cone and 60 watts. These are not expensive, and many stores carry them (Sam Ash and Guitar Center that I know of) that also carry the 700NX, so they would be easy to test out.

Sounded very good: clear mids and a good balanced bass. No overwhelming treble or nasal treble. Nice balance of sound.

More generally, have you considered going back to the shop where you bought your 700NX, assuming that you didn't get it online, and talking to their pro-audio people about their suggestions for getting a better sound? I think they would be willing to let you hook up a 700NX to several sets of monitors to compare the results.


Edited by Jake Johnson (04/08/12 02:25 AM)

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#1875417 - 04/08/12 02:12 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
stumbler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 300
Loc: Toronto
With regards to the mono issue. The 3 SN pianos all include mono variants.
_________________________
Roland RD-700NX


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#1875543 - 04/08/12 10:41 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Vic Z Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/25/11
Posts: 4
FWIW I use a Yamaha Stagepas 300 system floor-mounted with my FP-4F and I'm very happy with the sound.

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#1875633 - 04/08/12 01:36 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: stumbler]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: stumbler
With regards to the mono issue. The 3 SN pianos all include mono variants.


Yes, I've heard the mono grand, but it also didn't sound great. I understand that the mono patches don't have as much care and attention as the stereo patches since the market wants more stereo.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1875689 - 04/08/12 03:25 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
thomsurf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 154
Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
I think that the Roland Supernatural mono piano patches sounds absolutely dull and lifeless. There's no way I would ever play in mono with my Rd300NX. I can't imagine that you will ever be able to get a descent piano sound from your 700NX unless you either buy a second Bose, or much better: get rid of the Bose and get a pair of quality speakers, or a at least a stereo combo.
_________________________
Roland RD800, JBL PRX612M.

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#1875755 - 04/08/12 06:13 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Thanks for all the replies thus far, everyone.

Just a note: I'm not looking for another PA system for my school. I'm also probably not looking at getting another amp for my Roland, nor am I going to sell the Roland. I am probably not going to return the Bose, that is unless the Bose doesn't measure up for my intended purposes of miking wind instruments, bass and guitar, and possibly reinforcing choirs. The allure of the Bose is that it has a very small footprint, and can be set up very quickly and without complications. As for whether it sounds as good as other PAs, well I'm not one to judge, especially since it is apparent that there are other systems that seem to be setting the standard for tripod mounted speakers.
Another thing the Bose seems to be good at is sound dispersion where there are no hot spots, and that the intended and preferred location for the speaker system is behind the players enabling them to hear what the audience (apparently) hears. With a typical PA I believe other monitors may be necessary, especially since there may be greater feedback issues if I were to put the mains behind my band. All this adds to more set-up time, and greater margin of error when trying to just play the music.

Of further note, maybe people missed that this set up is for a school. I'm the only person directing 3 ensembles of a combined total of over 150 students, and I need to have the students (13 yr olds) help with setting up the equipment. Unless you've tried to do something similar yourselves, you may want to consider what it might be like to not only rehearse, but to also orchestrate the set up and take down of concerts, and then consider that ANY shortcuts may be welcome. There's always trade-offs, and I guess the main trade off is that my NX won't sound great.
So, if people would like to give further suggestions that may help me seek a solution within the system I currently have please come forward, otherwise I don't think anything else at this point will be useful to me. That being said, thanks for the tips about the stereo keyboard amps. I may look into getting one for personal gigging use if and when I get out there again and play in public.
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#1875941 - 04/09/12 12:12 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Dr Popper Offline
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I don't get your logic .....nothing simpler then setting up a couple of K12's .....
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#1875969 - 04/09/12 01:26 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Dr Popper]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
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Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper


I don't get your logic .....nothing simpler then setting up a couple of K12's .....


Seriously? Let me know when you have 150 thirteen year old students running around while you try to get them organized into bringing 90 folding chairs, 60 music stands, 5 portable risers (each weighing 200 lbs), a full percussion section including mallet instruments, gongs, etc, etc, an electric piano, and a PA system, from the band room into a nearby gym, then getting them to set up their own instruments and arrange their music all within 30 minutes and then let me know what part of the logic of trying to streamline the operation you might be missing.
Tripods not a good idea. More cables not a good idea. Monitors or more amps so the students can hear themselves not such a good idea. A mixing board, not such a good idea for 13 year old kids. Oh, and the whole take down at the end of the night is quite another ordeal.
You either must work for the QSC company or really really hate Bose. wink How can the K12s make things simpler than any other typical PA? Are they wireless? Can they be placed directly behind the players like the Bose? Do they not require a mixing board? Tripods? Look, I'm not disputing that you and others believe that the K12s and a host of other products may sound better than the Bose, but I am questioning the reasoning behind suggesting a typical PA system would be easier and/or better for my specific scenario.
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#1875978 - 04/09/12 01:58 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Pete the bean Offline
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You can use the K10's without a board but it is not the best way to go. They have 2 independent channels but if you need to change the mix, you have to reach behind the speakers to do it.
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#1876125 - 04/09/12 10:17 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
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The SA300 system I mentioned earlier does not require any tripods or extra devices, sits behind the player, and the only additional cable is a six-inch link between top and bottom units.

However, it sounds like you've determined that the Bose is the best way to go for your situation, and you've asked if there's any way to improve the Roland's sound through the Bose. The short answer is no. Other than tweaking onboard EQ etc. to taste, you're stuck with the problem of running stereo samples through a mono system, which results in a flat, thin, uninspiring sound; or using the mono samples, which - in Roland's case - are not very good, IMO. The only board that I know of currently that sounds good in mono is the Nord Piano.


Edited by voxpops (04/09/12 10:24 AM)
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#1876138 - 04/09/12 10:50 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Kbeaumont Online   content
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I would suggest you try finding a GEM RPX module on ebay for your piano sound. It has a really good mono piano and can be had for about $500 if you can find one. There are other modules that can be had that have good mono samples. Kurzweil micro-piano has several mono samples, though the technology is a little dated. A software instrument and a laptop could also work for you.


Edited by Kbeaumont (04/09/12 10:56 AM)
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#1876143 - 04/09/12 10:59 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: voxpops]
susanmusic Offline
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Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 117
sceptical,

I'm a piano teacher and I've been a school band teacher. I understand. REALLY, consider the Roland SA-300 while you can find one. Sounds pretty good. Just two pieces (c. 20 pounds each). Set the top unit on top of the bottom. You're all set. 4 stereo channels with several inputs on each channel. So you could have something like 12 instruments/mics. Anti-feedback so it sits behind players/singers. Stereo pretty good.

I use mine for a couple of purposes at home but major reason was for community theater production every summer. Last summer we plugged 3 keyboards and a bass into it as part of 20 piece pit orchestra. Filled 1000 seat HS auditorium nicely without cranking volume.

Original steet price was $1000.

Susanmusic

P.S. To add to versatility, you can use just the top unit alone. It detects that sub not attached.


Edited by susanmusic (04/09/12 11:08 AM)
Edit Reason: add P.S.
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#1876149 - 04/09/12 11:09 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
ando Online   content
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Sceptical,

Practicality and sound quality are trade-offs to an extent. If you want better sound, your have to trade off some of the ease of setup. If you want total ease of setup, you sacrifice sound quality. Now it seems to me that you have already announced that you are not happy with the sound of your piano through the Bose, and that discontentment is the reason you started this thread. There is no way that is going to change. Unless you think you can tolerate what you are hearing now, you are going to have to ditch the Bose, or buy another one and run them in stereo. Personally, I think Bose gear is wretched stuff, but that's just an opinion. Your opinion is the one that matters.

So, exactly how unhappy with your sound are you? Could you learn to live with it? Is the ease of use compensating you enough for the lack of sound quality?

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#1876217 - 04/09/12 01:25 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: ando]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: ando
Sceptical,

So, exactly how unhappy with your sound are you? Could you learn to live with it? Is the ease of use compensating you enough for the lack of sound quality?


The NX has not sounded good through any of my available amps yet, including the Bose. So I'd say I'm as unhappy with the sound as I've ever been, but only had thought that with the Bose the NX would be better.
I've still yet to get back to the school and give it one last try with running two cables from the NX to the Bose, and then setting some delay to compensate for phasing issues that are apparently causing the thin sound in the middle registers. If that doesn't work then I'll either have to simply live with the bad sound, or look into the SA300 that was recommended above by a few people. Chances are though, that the SA would not be the best choice either because it sits behind the players, and the sound would ultimately (so it would seem) become muffled for the keyboard and horns.

update: I've just checked around for the SA300 and it is not easily available, if at all, around here. Too bad because it sounds pretty decent. Does anyone know why it was discontinued?


Edited by scepticalforumguy (04/09/12 01:31 PM)
Edit Reason: update added
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#1876220 - 04/09/12 01:31 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
36251 Online   content
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Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 765
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: ando
Sceptical,

So, exactly how unhappy with your sound are you? Could you learn to live with it? Is the ease of use compensating you enough for the lack of sound quality?


The NX has not sounded good through any of my available amps yet, including the Bose. So I'd say I'm as unhappy with the sound as I've ever been, but only had thought that with the Bose the NX would be better.
I've still yet to get back to the school and give it one last try with running two cables from the NX to the Bose, and then setting some delay to compensate for phasing issues that are apparently causing the thin sound in the middle registers. If that doesn't work then I'll either have to simply live with the bad sound, or look into the SA300 that was recommended above by a few people. Chances are though, that the SA would not be the best choice either because it sits behind the players, and the sound would ultimately (so it would seem) become muffled for the keyboard and horns.
running two cables won't do anything. I believe it's the same as running in left mono output. I would like to know if my idea helps. I said to run right to Bose and run left to Roland, which should be placed left of piano. With some volume adjustment I think you can get a somewhat stereo image for the stage. It might not project to audience but there should be enough sound for audience to enjoy.
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#1876221 - 04/09/12 01:35 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
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Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

I've still yet to get back to the school and give it one last try with running two cables from the NX to the Bose, and then setting some delay to compensate for phasing issues that are apparently causing the thin sound in the middle registers.

Isn't it easier to simply send a mono line out to the Bose from the RD's left (mono) output? It's probably better to let the piano sum the channels rather than try to do it afterwards.


Quote:
If that doesn't work then I'll either have to simply live with the bad sound, or look into the SA300 that was recommended above by a few people. Chances are though, that the SA would not be the best choice either because it sits behind the players, and the sound would ultimately (so it would seem) become muffled for the keyboard and horns.

The SA300 can sit wherever you like. It's just that it CAN sit behind. Reading your previous posts it sounded like you wanted the speakers behind so that people on stage could hear more clearly!
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#1876226 - 04/09/12 01:51 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: 36251]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
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Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: 36251
I would like to know if my idea helps. I said to run right to Bose and run left to Roland, which should be placed left of piano. With some volume adjustment I think you can get a somewhat stereo image for the stage. It might not project to audience but there should be enough sound for audience to enjoy.

Yes, this is the other thing I will definitely try too since it doesn't involve buying/returning/exchanging anything.
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#1876240 - 04/09/12 02:17 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: voxpops]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
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Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: voxpops

Isn't it easier to simply send a mono line out to the Bose from the RD's left (mono) output? It's probably better to let the piano sum the channels rather than try to do it afterwards.

That's the first thing I tried which led me to start this thread.
Originally Posted By: vox

Quote:
If that doesn't work then I'll either have to simply live with the bad sound, or look into the SA300 that was recommended above by a few people. Chances are though, that the SA would not be the best choice either because it sits behind the players, and the sound would ultimately (so it would seem) become muffled for the keyboard and horns.

The SA300 can sit wherever you like. It's just that it CAN sit behind. Reading your previous posts it sounded like you wanted the speakers behind so that people on stage could hear more clearly!

Yes I do, but I want the audience to hear it clearly too. Typically with amps that sit on the ground one needs a somewhat clear path in front to hear the highs. I'll have about three rows of kids with instruments in front of the sound system. The advantage of the Bose is that the tweeters are on a 7 ft pole and point outwards to about 180 degrees, somewhat like the spread of a typical PA on tripods.

Jeez, I feel like I'm a rep from Bose trying to sell you guys on something. I just got the system on Thursday, played through it for about 45 minutes, and found myself disillusioned with my piano sound. I came here to see if anyone has actually tried this system and found a solution. It appears that no one has used the Bose here.
IF someone were to ask me at this point if I would recommend the Bose for keyboards I'd also say no, at least not yet.
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#1876244 - 04/09/12 02:22 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Dave Horne Offline
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Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
A comment or two regarding Bose, specifically the 802s since Bose triggers such vitriol among some folks. I've been using two Bose 802s (with the system controller) for 20 years and always receive very positive comments on the sound of the system. (Singers love my sound system.) The piano always sounds great as well as vocals and any mp3s or CDs I run through it.

While the price of the 802s is pricey, you'll never have to buy a flight case since the case itself is its own flight case.
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#1876253 - 04/09/12 02:31 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
I came here to see if anyone has actually tried this system and found a solution. It appears that no one has used the Bose here.

I have used this system, and actually use it regularly (once a month). One of the clubs I play is equipped with a pair of these. Initially, I liked the sound (in stereo), but since the club is small and one of the speakers sits right next to some audience tables, the waiters have taken to turning off one side during the course of the performance, leaving my keys operating on one channel only, and pumping the other into a dead-end - doesn't sound great. That's what led me to purchase the SA-300. I considered the Motion Sound KP-500SN, or simply bringing my existing Mackie SRM350s to reestablish my stereo image, but the KP is too bulky/heavy, and the Mackies would involve a mixer and more cables/setup-time/space, and so the SA-300 was the best compromise.

I think it's very sensible to try using your KC as part of the system, but the sound and acoustic treatment will be vastly different from the Bose, and so it's unlikely it'll be a wonderful solution - but you never know.
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#1876264 - 04/09/12 02:51 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: voxpops]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
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Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: voxpops
and so the SA-300 was the best compromise.

Can you give any insight as to why they have discontinued this model? Has it been replaced? I can't see anything online except for other PA things from Roland, but nothing within a single unit labelled as PA. There's a similar looking Bass amp BA300, but I doubt this would work.

Also, I understood from reading the Bose musician forum that the towers were not offensively louder when you were closer to the them. I can't say I really understand this, but it appears that you're saying that this isn't the case?
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#1876274 - 04/09/12 03:05 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: voxpops
and so the SA-300 was the best compromise.

Can you give any insight as to why they have discontinued this model? Has it been replaced? I can't see anything online except for other PA things from Roland, but nothing within a single unit labelled as PA. There's a similar looking Bass amp BA300, but I doubt this would work.

I have no idea why it was discontinued other than it possibly wasn't a best-seller. However, it's still available new at Mass Music: here

Like I said, it's not perfect: a little hiss/white noise if you crank it up high (but it's powerful enough that you probably don't have to do that), and the stereo image is narrow (although the "wide" button adds a semblance of extra separation) due to the fact that the upper unit speakers are very close together and the sub is mono. However, the pluses outweighed the minuses for me, and it solved my issues. It has enough of the stereo signal remaining for the problems you describe to be substantially mitigated.

The SA1000 was described as optimized for Roland keyboards - what exactly that means, I'm not sure, but I suspect the 300 and the 1000 are likely to be very similar, internally.

Quote:
Also, I understood from reading the Bose musician forum that the towers were not offensively louder when you were closer to the them. I can't say I really understand this, but it appears that you're saying that this isn't the case?

I'm not saying that at all. It's just that if a group sits next to the speaker and decides they want to chat rather than listen to the music, they'll ask the waiter to turn the sound down, and he'll oblige - after all his tip depends on it! It's damn annoying, but there you are.
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#1876292 - 04/09/12 03:38 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
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Loc: Oregon
B&H has the SA1000 at $1,199: here

This is what a reviewer had to say:
"i use this keyboard ampifier for practicing my keyboards and organ.i have not owned it for very long, maybe a couple of weeks.it is very simple to use. very portable, and small enough to fit in my small town house living area.it has crystal clean highs for keyboard, and stage piano. as well as excellent clear lows for the organ.i also own a leslie for which i have used for my organ, and now i will have to get use to a different sound coming from the organ because this stage amplifier is not a rotating amplifier like the leslie is.i plan on selling my leslie because of the size, and i dont have a roady to move it from gig to gig. the leslie weighs about 125 lbs. this gem is 25 lbs each stack. i have not used the other inputs for mics and cd or drum machines as yet. there are pleanty of stereo inputs to use. as well as a headphone output."
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#1876397 - 04/09/12 07:13 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
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Loc: Oregon
Somewhat OT, scepticalforumguy, I just checked out your link. Great playing! I'm curious: that sounds like a real Rhodes; am I right? Also, what acoustic piano(s) did you use for those recordings? (It sounds like more than one brand.)
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#1876401 - 04/09/12 07:28 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: voxpops]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
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Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Somewhat OT, scepticalforumguy, I just checked out your link. Great playing! I'm curious: that sounds like a real Rhodes; am I right? Also, what acoustic piano(s) did you use for those recordings? (It sounds like more than one brand.)

Thanks Vox!
As for the Rhodes---on Beatrice it's the 700NX, on All Blues its a real Rhodes, and yes, there are two different pianos in the other recordings a Shigeru and a 100yr old Bell upright.
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#1876407 - 04/09/12 07:44 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

As for the Rhodes---on Beatrice it's the 700NX, on All Blues its a real Rhodes

That figures. All Blues has that wonderful, warm presence of the genuine article. The sound on Beatrice is good, but has a slightly harder edge - not bad though, for a Roland. wink

Quote:
there are two different pianos in the other recordings a Shigeru and a 100yr old Bell upright.

The Shigeru sounds very, very nice!
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#1876502 - 04/09/12 10:05 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Dr Popper Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1720
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

Can you give any insight as to why they have discontinued this model? Has it been replaced?


Well it didn't sell very well because it couldn't compete with the powered PA speakers coming out. It's been replaced with a couple of stereo link options for normal K series KB amp's. So actually it has just been dropped rather then replaced.
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#1876504 - 04/09/12 10:08 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: voxpops]
Dr Popper Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
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Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: voxpops
I considered the Motion Sound KP-500SN, or simply bringing my existing Mackie SRM350s to reestablish my stereo image, but the KP is too bulky/heavy,


What ? The KP-500SN is about 5 pounds more but in one case while the Roland is two cases ?
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#1876506 - 04/09/12 10:12 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Dr Popper Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1720
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper


I don't get your logic .....nothing simpler then setting up a couple of K12's .....


Seriously? Let me know when you have 150 thirteen year old students running around while you try to get them organized into bringing 90 folding chairs, 60 music stands, 5 portable risers (each weighing 200 lbs), a full percussion section including mallet instruments, gongs, etc, etc, an electric piano, and a PA system, from the band room into a nearby gym, then getting them to set up their own instruments and arrange their music all within 30 minutes and then let me know what part of the logic of trying to streamline the operation you might be missing.
Tripods not a good idea. More cables not a good idea. Monitors or more amps so the students can hear themselves not such a good idea. A mixing board, not such a good idea for 13 year old kids. Oh, and the whole take down at the end of the night is quite another ordeal.
You either must work for the QSC company or really really hate Bose. wink How can the K12s make things simpler than any other typical PA? Are they wireless? Can they be placed directly behind the players like the Bose? Do they not require a mixing board? Tripods? Look, I'm not disputing that you and others believe that the K12s and a host of other products may sound better than the Bose, but I am questioning the reasoning behind suggesting a typical PA system would be easier and/or better for my specific scenario.


If you have 150 people in the room your way beyond the capabilities of the Bose system anyway. Simple fact is you can't get better sound without a proper PA system and that means more cables, a mixer and monitors. You might want to cut corners and simplify but it comes at a cost as your experiencing and that cost is crap sound.
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#1876507 - 04/09/12 10:21 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Dr Popper]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Originally Posted By: voxpops
I considered the Motion Sound KP-500SN, or simply bringing my existing Mackie SRM350s to reestablish my stereo image, but the KP is too bulky/heavy,


What ? The KP-500SN is about 5 pounds more but in one case while the Roland is two cases ?


For a geezer pushing 60, the spread over two cases makes all the difference. Half the weight per cabinet, and less bulk to manhandle. Even if I carry it all at once, 25lbs per hand is much easier to deal with than 55lbs in one hand. I had a 50+lbs amp previously, and it was a pain - literally.
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#1876565 - 04/10/12 12:13 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Dr Popper]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper


If you have 150 people in the room your way beyond the capabilities of the Bose system anyway. Simple fact is you can't get better sound without a proper PA system and that means more cables, a mixer and monitors. You might want to cut corners and simplify but it comes at a cost as your experiencing and that cost is crap sound.

Got it. This isn't dance music. Its a grade eight jazz band that needs reinforcement for the solo horns and to plug the bass and guitar and keyboard into. I'd be surprised if I need more power than the Bose. It seems DJs are using these with success in similar spaces, so let's move on, shall we?

As a side note, there is an existing speaker system in the gym that I can use to reinforce the sound if I wanted, but the speakers are attached to the ceiling, so not great for balancing one's sound.

For those interested I'll report back once I try the things I mentioned earlier to see if I get a better sound from the NX tomorrow.
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#1876630 - 04/10/12 04:56 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
This may not be what you want to hear, but perhaps one answer would be to find a stage piano that sounds decent in mono.

This is a major issue with the current crop of digital pianos. Nearly all of them seem to be geared towards sounding great in stereo in the showroom but run them in mono to FoH (as 99% of professionals do) and they sound like crap. This was one of the major reasons I ditched the Yamaha CP5 and went with the Nords, which have a dedicated mono output mode.

You should also be aware that although they sound great in studio monitor and cans, quite a few Roland RD700xx owners have reported problems with making them sound good in amplified, ensemble settings. I owned an RD700GX and it sounded wonderful in my studio but really struggled to compete and find its own sonic space when put through a PA.

I was in a band which briefly tried the Bose system and we didn't really like it much but it may not be your sole problem here.
_________________________
Yamaha CP40 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361

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#1876641 - 04/10/12 06:30 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
James Pun Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/11
Posts: 113
My honest opinion, while the sound of the 700NX may be great to the piano *player* with headphones and in the studio; the sound is problematic when used in a CD recording, or on stage with (sometimes) cheap and compromised PA systems, and in mono.

I've been a pianist for 20+ years and have done recordings, performed on stages of various sizes in solo or in a band, and this is my conclusion after trying many models of DPs on the market.
_________________________
Nord Piano | Yamaha S90ES | Yamaha MOX 8 | Neumann U87 | Metric Halo 2882

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#1876770 - 04/10/12 11:46 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Aidan]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1733
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
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2005 NY Steinway D

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#1876787 - 04/10/12 12:33 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: Aidan]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Aidan
This may not be what you want to hear, but perhaps one answer would be to find a stage piano that sounds decent in mono.

This is a major issue with the current crop of digital pianos. Nearly all of them seem to be geared towards sounding great in stereo in the showroom but run them in mono to FoH (as 99% of professionals do) and they sound like crap. This was one of the major reasons I ditched the Yamaha CP5 and went with the Nords, which have a dedicated mono output mode.

That was one excellent aspect of the Nord Piano (and the GEM that I also used to own). In fact, to me, there was very little difference between playing the Nord in mono versus stereo. Which makes me wonder if the samples are actually mono samples that are post-processed with stereo DSP effects. That would also account for the claimed polyphony of 40-60 being sufficient for all voices, whether mono or stereo.

However, it's probably impractical for the OP to consider trading one expensive DP for another at this stage. Also, having heard the OP's style of playing, I think that the Nord's inferior action would likely be an issue.
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#1877024 - 04/10/12 07:39 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: voxpops]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Update anyone?

So, I tried the two easiest alternatives today. First I tried what I tried on Thursday again to see if I was still as dissatisfied with the sound from the L/mono out to the Bose. It still wasn't great, but maybe since I lowered my expectations a bit it didn't seem bad.
Then having that as a reference base, I plugged the NX in with two patch cords to two channels on the Bose. I then did the same with plugging one of the two cords into the Roland Jazz Chorus I already had at the school.
Well, the two solutions above both worked to some extent. The only difference between the two was that I now had true stereo separation with the JC. However, going back and forth between testing this and just the two cords directly into the Bose I didn't find much benefit from the extra amp.
SO, there was a difference with the two cords, both markedly different than just using mono out. Everything also sounded superior to the Mono Concert Grand too.
The other thing I did was read the manual for the Bose which suggested adjusting the volume on the keyboard to be louder than that on the channel. After this the trim was adjusted too. All of these combined things really did bring the sound closer to what I was expecting.

Long story short: I'm more satisfied, but just not thrilled with the NX.
I do really like the Bose though, and am keeping it. I plugged three bass players in today and the sound was great. I also played a bunch of other patches on the NX w/ split keyboard and drum tracks and the Bose was great for that too.
The real benefit of this system though is that it is so inconspicuous. The sound really does remain consistent no matter what part of the room you're in, and the thing can go incredibly loud, at least for my applications.

Would I get one for gigging? Hard to say. I'd probably opt for two LI compacts if I had the money, or if I could, audition the SA300 might go that route. Maybe with a Nord or something else? Would I buy the NX again? No, not for what I intended to use it for. I'm still curious to hear from others that HAVE the 700NX for gigging, to see what they do to get a great sound. I couldn't imagine playing this thing as solo piano for more than a few measures at a time.

Now, as a side note, I had about 70 kids hear the system today and they LOVED it. So, I guess it goes to show that this type of set up can appeal (well, to those not really discerning...)
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1877040 - 04/10/12 08:13 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
Interesting findings, scepticalforumguy. I wonder what's going on in the Bose system that makes summing at the speaker end better than summing at the keyboard.

If you get a chance to try a Nord - or for that matter a Kawai MP or Yamaha CP - with the same system, it'd be interesting to read your comparison.
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#1877134 - 04/10/12 10:19 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: voxpops]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Interesting findings, scepticalforumguy. I wonder what's going on in the Bose system that makes summing at the speaker end better than summing at the keyboard.

If you get a chance to try a Nord - or for that matter a Kawai MP or Yamaha CP - with the same system, it'd be interesting to read your comparison.


Actually, I'll have the chance tomorrow night to try a Nord with another L1 system, but the model 1 instead of model 2. Not in the same space, and not side by side with the NX, but I figure if the Nord sounds better on the Bose predecessor then there must be something seriously lacking in the NX, all things considered.

I'll report back tomorrow, maybe even with a recording.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1879707 - 04/14/12 07:09 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
moleskincrusher Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 172
One suggestion nobody has made yet but with which I have had success improving the sound of a Roland DP from external speakers: try summing to mono by inserting a small barebones high quality mixer like the Behringer MicroMix (MH400) between the audio outputs of your DP and the line input of the Bose. The mixer and extra cables are quite inexpensive in the US.

The Behringer is quiet even turned all the way up (unlike the Bose) so connect the audio outputs to Input 1 and Input 2 and turn the volumes of each to about 4 o'clock (keeping Inputs 3 and 4 all the way down) and connect the mixer's output to your Bose line input, with the Bose's volume set no higher than 9 o'clock. When I play through a Bose PA I need to EQ my keyboard to roll off some bass (on my FP-7F I often use "Equalizer 3"; I don't know what its counterpart on the NX is).

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#1879836 - 04/15/12 01:30 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


I'll report back tomorrow, maybe even with a recording.


a n d . . .

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#1879845 - 04/15/12 01:58 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: 10fingers]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


I'll report back tomorrow, maybe even with a recording.


a n d . . .


...I thought this thread was dead...

but since I'm here... I did try the Nord with the L1, as well as the Nord with some Fender tube amps. The guy I was playing with has a pretty elaborate setup of gear.
In any case, what I've found is that I'm one picky SOB. I didn't like the piano sound from the Nord in any of the amps unless I was playing B3 or wurli patches, and even then I just didn't like playing through an amp. It wasn't the Nord Piano I was expecting either--this one didn't have weighted keys, and was 66-73 keys on the thing. Really mediocre piano sounds IMO.
I think what this has come down to is that I'm not going to get what I'm looking for with any PA or amp (since I'm not in the market for something solely for the NX anyways because it isn't mine.) I play on acoustic pianos of all shapes and sizes and I prefer them to all the digitals I've auditioned through speakers, not yet having tried the AvantGrand, and probably still haven't found the best keyboard/PA combination.
And just to rub it in a bit--- I still like the Bose for all the other things it has going for it. The guitars and bass sound great through it, and the NX sounds pretty decent when I'm playing anything but piano.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1907515 - 06/03/12 09:02 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: voxpops]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3442
Originally Posted By: voxpops
the SA-300 was the best compromise.
...
Like I said, it's not perfect: a little hiss/white noise if you crank it up high (but it's powerful enough that you probably don't have to do that), and the stereo image is narrow (although the "wide" button adds a semblance of extra separation) due to the fact that the upper unit speakers are very close together and the sub is mono. However, the pluses outweighed the minuses for me

The hiss is pretty bad if you engage one of the mic preamps, but a lot less objectionable if you don't need to run any mics though it.

The bass module being mono isn't much of an issue, as low frequencies are far less directional and much harder for the ear to locate anyway. That's why various "2+1" systems sound satisfyingly stereo in other contexts. But yes, the stereo separation is minimal with the top speakers so close together. But that "wide" effect does make Leslie simulation sound particularly nice, the sound seems to come from "outside the box" making it seem less "constrained" and more authentic to effect of a real Leslie. Unfortunately, the "wide" effect makes the piano sound worse (more colored) and also makes the unit more prone to feedback if you also have a vocal mic hooked up.

I wish I could turn on the wide stereo effect on just one channel for organ, without having to turn it on for all the channels. I have actually thought about bring around an SA300 just for organ, but don't know if I could justify shlepping a whole other amp just for that, leaving my piano through the ZXa1. (Meanwhile, in the old days, I used to gig with a real Leslie just for organ! But then again, back then, I had roadies...)

Actually, there are three scenarios I could consider here (to add something to the ZXa1), I could bring the SA-300, or maybe just the top half of the SA-300, or I could add a second ZXa1. I'll need to do a little experimentation...


Edited by anotherscott (06/05/12 11:30 AM)
Edit Reason: added parenthetical comment in last paragraph for clarity

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#1907571 - 06/03/12 12:09 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: anotherscott]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
I didn't know you had an SA300, too, Scott.

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
The hiss is pretty bad if you engage one of the mic preamps, but a lot less objectionable if you don't need to run any mics though it.

That's useful to know. I've not used mine with a mic hooked up yet, but I have a wedding coming up next month and was considering running the vocalist through the SA300. I think I'll take a different approach, now.

Talking of mics, I noticed that the auto feedback detect is only on the channels without phantom power; that seems strange.

Quote:
Unfortunately, the "wide" effect makes the piano sound worse (more colored) and also makes the unit more prone to feedback if you also have a vocal mic hooked up.

Yes, I was surprised at the difference in frequency response with the "wide" engaged. If nothing else, individual, (preferably sweepable) EQ per channel would have helped enormously.

Quote:
I wish I could turn on the wide stereo effect on just one channel for organ, without having to turn it on for all the channels.

That would certainly have helped a lot. So far, I've left the wide engaged and lived with the coloration. I might try it without "wide" and see how that affects the Numa sim.

Quote:
I could bring the SA-300, or maybe just the top half of the SA-300...

I haven't tried it on a gig without the sub, but would probably only run it as a monitor in that scenario, as piano loses a lot without the sub.

BTW, I just love the simplicity and ease of setup with this combo.
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#1907590 - 06/03/12 12:47 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: voxpops]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3442
Originally Posted By: voxpops

Quote:
I could bring the SA-300, or maybe just the top half of the SA-300...

I haven't tried it on a gig without the sub, but would probably only run it as a monitor in that scenario, as piano loses a lot without the sub.

I wouldn't be running piano through it regardless, I'd keep that in the ZXa1. It would really be for organ. Of course that can go pretty low too, but I think in my use of it, it pretty much doesn't. I'll have to check it out at some point...

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#1907601 - 06/03/12 01:13 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: anotherscott]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
It would really be for organ.


Motion Sound Pro 145?
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#1907603 - 06/03/12 01:27 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: voxpops]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3442
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
It would really be for organ.


Motion Sound Pro 145?


24.5" x 20" x 17"?

65 pounds?

$1700?

No way, times three!

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#1907607 - 06/03/12 01:32 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
I hear you! That's why I went for the SA.
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#1907642 - 06/03/12 03:23 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
FWIW, I just ran a short experiment with the Numa Piano and organ plugged into the SA300. I had been a little less than satisfied with the sound of the piano on the last gig - too much honky middle.

First, I switched off the "wide" effect. Much better on the piano and wasn't too detrimental to the Numa rotary sim. Then I tried switching the wide back on, adding the bass boost function and reducing the mids a touch. That was a pretty good combination. It brought out the low end of the organ much better, and the piano was improved over the gig sound. The only downside seemed to be that the boosting of the bass again reduced the wide effect.

I then tried running the Numa's pedals (via split). That caused the speakers to teeter on the brink of distortion (volume set at 12 o'clock on the amp channel and master). It was not unlike a hint of Leslie distortion (better than the Numa's built-in distortion!) but not something I would risk on a long-term basis. Fortunately, I don't use the pedal settings with the band.

I've still got more experimenting to do, but I'm convinced that I can get a very acceptable sound for a combinaton of piano, organ and synth. (Slim Phatty on the way - always felt a lack of true analog after selling my Little Phatty a couple of years ago, and the tone of the Mopho didn't quite do it for me.)
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#1908767 - 06/05/12 11:20 AM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 382
Loc: Dorset, England
Have you reduced the stereo width in the set up mode?

Press tone edit, cursor down one and turn the dial anti-clockwise. (You know all that already, of course)

I don't suppose it will make any difference, but you can try it if you haven't already done so.

I have the same piano and the same problem, I don't put it down to the piano but I am seriously considering buying a Roland amp as I feel I am wasting a lot of a brilliant piano.

If it comes to that Roland recommend use of their headphones too.

Just to add, I saw your post about being very selective and I don't think you are different to the rest of us!

Of all the stage pianos, I have always preferred the Rolands and having had this one since last August, and in spite of it's considerable "character" I still believe it is the best stage piano out there, and yes, I would still buy it again.



Edited by slipperykeys (06/05/12 11:28 AM)

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#1908908 - 06/05/12 04:14 PM Re: Roland 700nx...what am I missing? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Kona_V-Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 283
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


I'll report back tomorrow, maybe even with a recording.


a n d . . .


...I thought this thread was dead...

but since I'm here... I did try the Nord with the L1, as well as the Nord with some Fender tube amps. The guy I was playing with has a pretty elaborate setup of gear.
In any case, what I've found is that I'm one picky SOB. I didn't like the piano sound from the Nord in any of the amps unless I was playing B3 or wurli patches, and even then I just didn't like playing through an amp. It wasn't the Nord Piano I was expecting either--this one didn't have weighted keys, and was 66-73 keys on the thing. Really mediocre piano sounds IMO.
I think what this has come down to is that I'm not going to get what I'm looking for with any PA or amp (since I'm not in the market for something solely for the NX anyways because it isn't mine.) I play on acoustic pianos of all shapes and sizes and I prefer them to all the digitals I've auditioned through speakers, not yet having tried the AvantGrand, and probably still haven't found the best keyboard/PA combination.
And just to rub it in a bit--- I still like the Bose for all the other things it has going for it. The guitars and bass sound great through it, and the NX sounds pretty decent when I'm playing anything but piano.


Since you are very picky, like me, you might want to try the new NU1 from Yamaha. It is the cheapest AG series but uses an upright acoustic piano touch and uses the newest CFX samples from Yamaha's flagship. It has its own built in speakers so for indoor use , it might be perfect for you.


Edited by Kona_V-Piano (06/05/12 04:14 PM)
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