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#1874116 - 04/05/12 10:38 AM Warranty tuning only or a little bit more?
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
I have increasing requests from dealers for assistance to complete this work. After the dealer sells the piano you get the call for a warranty tuning. Most of the time the grand or upright is fully prepped from the dealer previous to sending the instrument along to the customer.

Some dealers have a check list from the manufacturer which has to be filled out; the usual stuff is on there, tuning, or possible pitch correction and tune, check out the action/keyboard; glide bolts set properly, action mechanics lined up correctly, hammers mated to the strings, keyboard punchings all good, check leg and lyre bolts for secure fittings and tight, no squeaks in the bench, etc etc. Maybe a cup of tea and a little schmooze/ pep talk with the new client about regular tunings and on and on……

I have been asking a few techs I know that do this work on a regular basis and I am hearing the averages for cost to complete all of this type of thing to be around the $150-250 dollar mark. Of course there will be examples of higher or lower; Concert grand’s like a D or other higher end instruments would most likely be more than that figure.

Or maybe the dealer tech missed on something before the piano was delivered.

Mostly here I am referring to the mainstream instruments; the massed produced Asian grand’s and uprights which are most common these days.

Now I don’t want this thread to get into a pricing comparison with members posting their fees. I am looking to find out if that dollar figure is in the “generally expected range”.

To make it easy, is paying a tech up to $250 for his/her after delivery services of a fully prepped grand, deemed fair and appropriate?
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1874129 - 04/05/12 10:54 AM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3848
I would charge by the hour. The dealer will want a set price but you never know how much work a piano needs.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1874137 - 04/05/12 11:09 AM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 327
Loc: Europe
I do this kind of job, and the deal I have with the dealers, is to go to the customer for a tuning. So the price is for one tuning + travel expences.
I check the piano and if I find there are things that ought to be done, egalizing,voicing, some regulation or whatever, I call the dealer and have a talk about it. Usually, if it a high class instrument the dealers accept to have the job done and pay my normal fee.
Other dealers might say, "Do what you can in two hours" or one day, depending on the profit they have on the piano, I guess.
So going to the customer for a tuning is just the start. I am not interested in doing any free work for dealers. The job we do for them is so important for their customer relations, and we should get payed for every hour.


Edited by pianolive (04/05/12 11:17 AM)

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#1874147 - 04/05/12 11:26 AM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Bob,

Thanks for joining in here. I have been considering that as some of the jobs I am winning a little and others I am losing a little. Like you posted sometimes things are found that have been missed, forgotten, or shifted during transport. And yes the majority of them are asking for a set fee.

Pianolive,

I would agree that this type of work is really important for customer relations. I have been doing the same when I find things over and above the tuning only; contacting the dealer immediately to discuss what is found. Often times numerous small things adjustments add up to a lot of time. This is not work to be done for free.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1874166 - 04/05/12 12:18 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
TunerJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 463
Loc: Oregon Coast
I routinely cover warranty tunings for dealerships out here on the Oregon Coast. The dealer techs do not like to travel out of the Portland metro area. So, I get the call from all of them, at one point or another; Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai, Pearl River, etc.

We have a pre-agreed price for the warranty tuning, and I offer a slightly discounted fee (10%) for providing me with a customer that will be in my files for the next decade or two. This a a 'thank-you!' and acknowledgement that I appreciate the new income. I do not charge for very minor pedal/trapwork adjustment or tweaking a rep-spring or two...up to about 20-minutes of time.

That said; If I find additional work is required, beyond that trapwork adjustment, or minor tweaking in the action, I will call the dealership and get approval before starting. I must have authorization, or I feel the dealership would be prefectly correct to refuse the bill. That's just business!

Two of the dealerships are perfectly comfortable with my occasional suggestion for an additional hour on voicing or regulation. Never a problem. Our relationship goes back for a long time and we have a real sense of trust between us. They know I'm not gouging, and I know what is reasonable to ask for.

The third dealership tries to insist that anything beyond the tuning must be billed as 'warranty' to the builder, and quibbles about every facet of the work performed. Often frustrating, you can be sure. Of course, that dealership specializes in 'low-cost', 'introductory'...uh.... cheap pianos, and a bill for anything beyond the tuning becomes a matter of taking bread from his kids, or so he would have you believe.

Directly answering your question; No tuner should be billing beyond the agreed 'warranty tuning' cost without the dealer's approval. Very minor trapwork or regulation, taking under a half-hour, should be a part of the technician's service call anyway! Authorization for additional work should be approved by a service manager or store manager, not a salesman.

I do think that many tuner/techs regard warranty work as a license to bill, and forget that the dealer is trying to make a living, too. A little give and take, a little respect, and an acknowledgement that extra work needs approval would be greatly appreciated by the people putting new pianos into the world. The 'us and them' attitude towards dealerships is misplaced; pianos don't grow on trees.

Respectfully,
_________________________
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com

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#1874274 - 04/05/12 05:06 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
What Jeff said here too...my normal fee discounted 10% or so, and minor adjustments are par for the course...because I LOVE getting new pianos into the mix in our business...its good all around, and many of those buy Dampp Chaser systems at my urging. It works out well.

Not too many specialty grands like C7's or Steinways here that hit the market anyway, but those pianos would be special use situations and we would see them and quote a fee. Otherwise though, its easy for the dealers to refer to me because we're predictable.

RPD
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

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#1874329 - 04/05/12 06:57 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Hi Dan,

I too, charge by the hour. As Bob mentions, we have no idea what we're in for. I currently have a piano that needs WAY MORE than $250 worth of my time to fix bent dampers, misaligned hammers, voicing, tuning, regulation etc... I do give dealers a discount of 20 %. Someone around here started that trend as far back as I can remember and everyone in GR gives the same 20 % discount.

Anyway, the dealers wrote me a letter a while back that said something to the effect of, don't bother calling us for permission to fix things. We know you can fix it and will. We also know that you are honest so, please, just go ahead and fix it and bill us accordingly.

Not many of us received that letter but I got one and felt honored and so I do just that. Fix it and bill them for it. IF I do not have the time, that's another matter. Then I refer it back to them requesting that I keep the client in the future.

I don't charge for every little thing either... It all depends on what it is and how long it takes to fix it...
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1874395 - 04/05/12 09:33 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
I do give dealers a discount of 20 %. Someone around here started that trend as far back as I can remember and everyone in GR gives the same 20 % discount.


Way back when, in Lansing (MI) I tuned for a couple of dealers and was happy to receive 50% of my normal customer tuning fee for in-store tunings and 75% for in-home warranty tunings. It seemed worth while getting the customer after the sale plus I received 100% of the referrals from customers just calling in for a tuning. In my view -- both then and now -- it was a cheap way to build up a customer base.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1874418 - 04/05/12 10:06 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3848
Most of my deals with stores have been at a set price, and that usually cost me money, doing needed repairs for free. That's why it should all be charged per hour, in my opinion. A store wants a fixed cost per piano, and you can't blame them for that....however, the quality of manufacture is not fixed - it varies from quite good, to deplorable....sometimes within the same brand. Do one repair or pitch raise for free, and it's expected of you every time.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1874598 - 04/06/12 10:20 AM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Thanks for the comments Jeff; I share your points of view on the matter. Some dealers are easy to work with while others can be a bit more difficult. Most of us would agree that small adjustments are simply included in the tuning fee. But for more extensive work as Jerry has mentioned would require your suggested phone communiqué direct to the dealer for consultation and approval. This is what I do if the work is going to be over a certain cost or time allotment. I don’t believe it is out of line for any dealer to expect a couple of hundred in costs anyways and seems to be the median line for most I have asked.

Hi Rick,

Yes I am enjoying the mix of new and old also in my inventory of clients. Always good to have some late model instruments to tune, examine, and study for research and advice to offer folks who may want to purchase a new instrument. It is true about the Damp Chaser upgrades and other accessories.

Hey Jerry,

That actually surprises me in a way. I would think most dealers would have a desire to get the majority, if not all of the adjustments completed previous to the instrument leaving the shop as on-site technical assistance costs a lot more than having the prep completed in the shop.

Hello Keith,

You actually confirm my point made in response to Jerry; an in-store tuning costs less that a field tuning. This is why I would think that most dealers would be of the mindset to have all the work completed in the store previous to transport. But as Jerry states sometimes there is the anomaly or the instrument where things have been missed, intentional or not.

Hey Bob,

Yes I have come across this many times. Once something is done as a no charge courtesy it is then expected as a courtesy in the future. This is why dealers and other clients need to understand that each piano is an individual case even though they are all massed produced on the same assembly line.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1874617 - 04/06/12 11:13 AM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
They often try to send the piano out without prep to save money hoping for the best. Sometimes, if they get the right tuner, nothing is said or done. If they get me, I fix it, notice it and make the appropriate corrections and complaints to the dealer... I had 3 of them in recent months that had not been prepped at all. One of them was Steinway. At the college, they used to send all of them in unprepped.. I would think they would want to prep them first to save money but, oh well, money in my pocket works too! smile
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1874734 - 04/06/12 03:42 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: TunerJeff

Directly answering your question; No tuner should be billing beyond the agreed 'warranty tuning' cost without the dealer's approval....(snip)

I do think that many tuner/techs regard warranty work as a license to bill, and forget that the dealer is trying to make a living, too. A little give and take, a little respect, and an acknowledgement that extra work needs approval would be greatly appreciated by the people putting new pianos into the world. The 'us and them' attitude towards dealerships is misplaced; pianos don't grow on trees.


This brings up an interesting issue I am dealing with at present.

What follows is an excerpt of an invoice I have been asked to review. This is for a fully prepped grand piano that was inspected prior to delivery. A request was made by the new owner to have his long-time technician complete the warranty tuning and any necessary minor adjustments (if something had shifted during transport or set-up by the movers.) The dealer involved agreed to let the owner’s technician complete the warranty tuning.

Then he receives this invoice: check some of this out……

Quote:

Prepare piano for tuning and next day concert.

Set timbre (tonal spectrum)
Set sustain and depth of sound
Stabilize key frame
Set ‘after-touch’ in the keys by establishing hammer blow distance and by evening out key dip
Align and fit hammers to strings
Check evenness in regulation of the action, not being concerned about specs due to time limitations.
Voice hammers
Check out piano for unevenness in the bass sound
Full regulation of action
Key dip self-corrects and falls into place
Tune, raising pitch mostly in the mid-range which had settled the most
Voice extensively, as from the regulation the action has gained much in power and efficiency


10.0 hours total


Sub-Total $ 1,071.00
HST 128.52

Total $ 1,199.52
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1874745 - 04/06/12 03:57 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21423
Loc: Oakland
What! He did not synchronize the cardinal grammeters? How will the reciprocating dingle arm be able to reduce the sinusoidal depleneration?
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1874767 - 04/06/12 04:46 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Yes apparently when one does not have any real reason for charges we invent new ones……this is not the end of the story…..
I attended the clients home to re-inspect and took photos of this “regulation”

Just editing the photos and will be with you shortly.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1874794 - 04/06/12 05:25 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Interesting! Looking forward to the next story and pics!!!

It is interesting indeed (did I use that word already?) that I find similar things with tuners being dishonest or gouging or, well, you name it, I suppose we've all seen it. One dealer here, I've never had problems with, when it comes to that sort of thing but then he knows that I know where the limits are too.... Honesty is one thing. Doing things that expensive without asking first is quite another in my opinion.

Was this a Steinway D?
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1874802 - 04/06/12 05:31 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
What no charge for the Teflon removal!!!!! grin whistle
_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#1874818 - 04/06/12 06:23 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Gene Nelson Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1471
Loc: Old Hangtown California
For me it is a warranty tuning only and always at a discount.
Beyond that everything can vary a great deal and a good understanding and agreement needs to be in place between me and store. My assumption is that the store wants as much as I to maintain a good reputation but I question if this always holds true for some stores.
What happens when a new piano arrives at a home in the crate and you were only asked to do a warranty tuning?
How about being called to service that Steinway that was re-whatevered in eastern Europe? Had one once that was sold as completely restored but the board that looked new was not new, block was not new, back action was original and needed replacing and the all new action parts were not the correct size and the extra thick polyester finish made the case parts an excessively tight fit and they forgot to install or allow space for a monkey guide on the new keyframe so sostenuto did not work properly and I was called for a warranty tuning.
If I have a good relationship with a store I will always spend an extra few minutes and touch up lost motion or adjust a pedal or cure the excessive drop or something that will noticably improve the insturment that can be done in 20 minutes or so and not charge extra. This makes everyone happy and will give me a client for a long time.
But when I get put into unknown difficult situations without warning it will likely be the last job I do for that store.
_________________________
RPT
PTG Member

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#1874837 - 04/06/12 06:59 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3848
Total $1199.52

Allowed charges per technician/piano store agreement (299.00)

Customer pays - $250.00..

Insurance/piano store reimbursement $49.99

At least, that's the way it works in the medical field. And I've been billed for plenty of cardinal grammeters over the years.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1874848 - 04/06/12 07:25 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Sorry Jerry, This is not a Steinway product.

Yes Rod, apparently no charge…..

Thanks for the comments Gene. I share your concerns about those situations you have described. If that happened to be the case, for me I would contact the dealer prior to the commencement of any work, especially if the instrument is right out of the crate. I recently looked at a Grotrian re-done in Poland with the problems you describe.

Here are a few photos with text comments below the frame. Some folks have been experiencing problems with the Picasa links lately; if anyone has trouble let me know….here is the link to the photos;
Regulation?

Regulation stats:

Strike distance should be 47mm. Found at 36mm.

Shanks to be 5mm above bump rail. Found at 35mm above.

Drop screw preset ok; no changes.

Let-off 10mm or variable.

Hammer back check at 17-20mm variable.

Key height unchanged from factory preset. After dip 10.86mm.

Bobbling hammers in the bass. Some bass hammers do not hit bi-chords at all.
Lowest Bb is mushy because of back check connecting on the way up.
Treble hammer set, mating is same.

No evidence of needle holes in hammer set upon inspect with dental binoculars.


_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1874876 - 04/06/12 08:24 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos


[quote]

Voice extensively, as from the regulation the action has gained much in power and efficiency


Not with a blow distance of 36 mm !!!!!!!!! sick

Let off at 10mm shocked

_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#1874888 - 04/06/12 08:48 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Wow, Dan. Who gets to be the bearer of the bad news? The dealer, I hope.

I imagine the customer will take great umbrage in having the integrity of his chosen "tech" impugned. It's too bad people refuse to see the fraud in situations like this.

BTW, those photos were kind of horrific. I don't think I've ever seen alignment that bad.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1874903 - 04/06/12 09:09 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3848
I agree with Rod, these specs are a power reduction. When this is regulated properly, the voicing might be pretty uneven. What is the aftertouch? What happens first, aftertouch or damper lift? ha ha.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1875001 - 04/07/12 02:39 AM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Maxtor Offline

Bronze Supporter until Jan 01 2013


Registered: 08/14/11
Posts: 182
Silverwood, I have once seen an invoice like that, but it was from a finance and accounting company. And I have to admit, I wrote the invoice - but it was a very different situation.
I begin my tangent:
Long story short, I was asked to do a financial evaluation of a company for a potential investor. It took me 20 minutes to evaluate and tell the potential investor (for free) to NOT invest with them. But, they wanted to spend a few thousand on a detailed evaluation anyway because the company was big 25 years ago and he thought that somehow mattered. My boss and the investor agreed on the price (it would cover the cost of work the investor was doing for my company). So I did 10 hours of real work and gave the same advice with more detail: basically the company had tons of debt, no assets, and no potential for revenue growth; do NOT invest in it. My boss asked me to pad the invoice from 10 hours to 25 hours. This was just to make the potential investor feel better and take our advice; the price was a fixed amount they agreed on earlier.
On the bright side, my analysis helped the company fix a few of its problems; but it was already doomed 7 years before I looked at it.


When I see an item repeated on an invoice with bigger words and an explanation, that's a warning sign. The difference between "Voice hammers" and "Voice extensively....." is an obvious example.

At least he didnt charge you for Reticulating Splines; that gets expensive.

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#1875004 - 04/07/12 02:50 AM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21423
Loc: Oakland
He also did not charge for the shovel!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1875099 - 04/07/12 10:23 AM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Thanks Rod,
I knew you would like the strike distance thingy……

Opera Tenor,

I got to be the bearer of bad news to the dealer along with another independent tech. After my first visit to the client home and following my initial report, a request was then made by the dealer to have a second opinion by another independent tech, along with myself and the dealer present.

We both filed reports, mine being the second one. No changes were observed.

Bob,
Yes the after touch…….good one……. I didn’t feel the need to go much farther than I did with the original inspection. Also the second technician did not see any reason to continue after checking out some of the things I directed him to.

Maxtor,

Good story about plumping up the cushions. I understand that the dealer is very pleased that the charges for Reticulating Splines were overlooked…….

Shovels are very expensive BDB especially the ones custom made for lifting large amounts of BS.

I have a can of aerosol spray from a novelty trick and joke shop. It is called Bullsh&%t repellant. I should have taken it with me and sprayed the whole instrument.

I have a few un-important questions about the charges claimed on the invoice:

Why is this work being done less than 5 days after delivery?

How does one go about setting timbre? Moreover how does one set sustain and depth of sound in a fixed toned instrument?

Check out the regulation but not concerned with the specs??? How does one check regulation without using some kind of spec or measurement?
If you have no specs to use as a baseline why regulate at all?

Why even check with no specs let alone charge for it....

First we voice and then we check out the unevenness in the bass tone? I always thought that voicing was to remove the unevenness in the tone……..if we are checking for unevenness in the bass following voicing then perhaps the voicing is not working very well …….just a thought…….

Further, why voice before you tune?

Unknown to me this model has self-correcting key dip.

How will using the instrument in this manner affect the warranty?
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1875110 - 04/07/12 10:47 AM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: OperaTenor]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
It's too bad people refuse to see the fraud in situations like this.


This is correct Opera Tenor. To present an invoice for charges when the work has not been completed properly or in some cases not at all (hammer mating being a good example) is a clear cut case of fraud.

I have to tell everyone involved in this thread that the whole story is not out here yet. I have more to post.

This one is like fine wine. It just keeps getting better and better or the bottle is corked………and you are left with vinegar for salad dressing.

Fresh greens anyone?
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1875188 - 04/07/12 01:47 PM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Okay, you've got me on the edge of my seat...

wink
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1875396 - 04/08/12 12:41 AM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1948
Loc: Philadelphia area
I'm not going to get into mud slinging here, but I will state that for every 'crazy tuner' example like the one posted above, there are ten examples of underhanded, and sometimes crazy, dealers.

Technicians avoid getting in the middle of a dealer and customer who both want work done but neither want to pay for it. And imagine the fun when the happy square dance of the Technician, the Dealer, the Customer, and the Manufacturer begins. They all point at the technician to fix it, while they are all pointing at each other to pay for the repair. All of this can only be trumped by the always surprising, and always wonderful, 'crazy customer'.

And keep in mind that most of these problems (like maybe 99% of them) would be avoided by simply checking over the piano before it is delivered. So when a dealer is confronted with a 'crazy tuner bill', maybe they might take the time to look in the mirror and think about how they would respond to the situation if they were the technician.

Happy Easter!

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#1875549 - 04/08/12 10:50 AM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
This is a long one but it has to be that way. I feel it is important that technicians are made aware of the position taken by the manufacturer in this matter;

Recently a local dealer presented an invoice to me for review. I was informed by him, that a customer who purchased a grand had specifically requested a certain local technician do the warranty tuning. Apparently the client told the dealer that this person has been his long-time technician.

The dealer, in a gesture of goodwill, agreed to let this technician do the warranty tuning, even though this particular technician is not a warranty technician for this store, or brand.

During the same phone call regarding this invoice matter, the dealer asked me to look at and repair a small warranty issue with a grand piano. One of the plate screws was either loose or stripped.

I asked the dealer to contact the manufacturer and get instructions for the recommended repair directly from the factory floor. After all, this was a brand new grand piano, only a few months old, and I wanted to repair this instrument in accordance with the manufacturer wishes so as to be in line with the warrant requirements. The instructions came to me a couple of days following.

I contacted the client with the warranty problem, and made an appointment to view and repair the piano. To complete the warranty repair I had to remove the action/keyboard. At that point I was making some observations about the unusual regulation I found. I also observed that the Teflon had been removed from the knuckles on this piano and thought to myself, “Hmmm I just looked at an invoice where the Teflon has been removed……”

I decided to take some photos of the action and keyboard. After completing the warranty repair and I forwarded the invoice for the service call to the dealer, I told him BTW have a look at these photos. The regulation on this one seems to be a long way from correct.

I got another call from the dealer right away. He was surprised that the photos came from the same piano; after all he was looking at an invoice total of $1200.00 presented to him for that very same grand piano. Further, the grand in question had been fully prepped and tuned in accordance with factory and warranty required specification previous to being sent out the client.

It was then that I realized all of this was connected to the same grand piano; the Teflon comments, the ambiguous and phantom charges on the invoice, along with charges for work not completed properly, and in some cases not completed at all.

Two days later I received another phone call from the dealer.

Apparently the warranty repair I had completed was failing. The piano owner and his technician had complained to the dealer about this. Further, both of them had contacted the manufacturer directly to lodge a complaint.

The dealer asked me to re-inspect the piano and the repair I had done. At the same time the dealer asked if he could bring another independent technician in to review the regulation changes I had discovered and to review the repair I had done.
We all attended the home of the client with this piano; the dealer, the owner and his wife, their technician, myself and another technician.

Both the other technician and I went over the regulation steps.

Previous to this appointment I had offered a copy of the instructions I had received from the factory floor to the other technician; both of us had a look at the warranty repair and discussed what I had done to complete that repair.

At this point we felt we had enough information to file reports on the regulation to the dealer. It was then that the owner complained the warranty repair was not working. We asked what the complaint was. We discovered, shortly after I had been here to complete the warranty repair, the owner’s technician had come over and deliberately tampered with the repair. This admission was made by the owner in front of everyone present.

Remember that the owner’s technician did not have any authorization to complete any warranty issues with this piano.

The owner’s technician was asked a specific question; “with more than 20 plate screws and bolts in the plate how did you find one that was loose originally?”

In front of everyone present this technician states; “I heard something in the tuning.”

The other technician and I were dumfounded at this statement. We both packed up our tools and made an exit. The following day we both filed reports to the dealer recommending that this technician no longer be permitted to complete any work on this piano. Failing that, recommend that the manufacturer void the warranty in writing to the owner.

Part two follows.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

Top
#1875551 - 04/08/12 10:52 AM Re: Warranty tuning only or a little bit more? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
This one went past the technical director of this brand and all the way to the owner of company.

Now here is the email reply the dealer has received. This was forwarded to me a few days ago; I have changed the name of the owner. This email comes from the technical director after discussion with the owner of the company;

Quote:
The owner and I have discussed this case at length now and we have decided the following and confirmed as much to Mr Smith.

1) The dealer will no longer be responsible for the Guarantee for the PE 162 model sold to Mr Smith serial number xxxxxxxxxx The Guarantee will be covered by Brodmann Vienna in future. Please forward the Warranty card to Vienna.

2) Brodmann will be responsible for the costs involved in finalizing the frame screw repair to the piano, directly with the owner’s technician.

3) Mr Smith has confirmed he is 100% happy with his chosen technician looking after his piano in future and he is aware that the piano needs to be maintained correctly for the warranty to be valid.

4) Mr Smith has confirmed he does not want to take up the dealer’s kind offer to re-regulate and tune his piano once more.

5) Brodmann cannot become involved in discussions or disputes between the dealer and Mr Smith’s technician about any previous arrangements to carry out tunings, or service work, or after sales service work. Please sort this out directly.

We appreciate that you will not be comfortable with these decisions, but trust that matters will now be allowed to rest.

Once again, we thank you for your continued support of Brodmann Pianos.

With best regards,

(Signed by the owner and technical director)

Joseph Brodmann Pianos.


So for a hundred dollar tuning and then the subsequent warranty repair we now have;

Atmosphere between dealer and manufacturer= poisoned.

Atmosphere between dealer and new piano owner=poisoned.

Atmosphere between the owner’s technician and this dealer=poisoned.

Atmosphere between myself and owner’s technician=poisoned.

Atmosphere between another attending technician and the owner’s technician=poisoned.

I am, at present, aware of two other Brodman products both with warranty items for repair.

The chances of ANY technician locally here doing warranty work for a Brodman piano in the future? Slim to no chance at all.

And this is all for a $100.00 warranty repair.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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