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#1839058 - 02/05/12 03:04 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2362
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi John,

In all those recordings, except where noted, the player system is the "LX" from www.live-performance.com Some recent news about the LX....Fazioli will install an LX into one of their grands for the Frankfurt Musikmesse in March, 2012.

All the recordings I have made, there is no after-processing done. It's straight from the mics to the Korg or Zoom H4, then converted to an MP3.

Here are a few more recordings of my M&H BB that I made that day with the Sahiaman mics. It's not in pristine tune, hammers need some voicing, but you still can get a feel for the mics.

Also, I tried these mics over at a friends house with a professional classical guitarist. I made an A_B with the Avenson's as well.

As I listen to these recordings over my headphones, I am struck at how my piano does not sound like it's from 1925. It has it's original soundboard. Other than that, everything else was rebuilt, new Isasac Bass strings, also his "classical west" hammers, new Roslau wire, new Tokiwa action, a new W&G carbon fiber back action. It also has the "Wapin" bridge conversion. It just goes to show you that an older well restored piano can compete with the new ones smile


1. Avenson STO-2 mics Classical Guitar http://www.box.com/s/06dxhgagt93ly3zcgisj

2. Sahiaman mics Classical Guitar http://www.box.com/s/1imx0kiqlayaqb2f2zjm


The tuning is all EBVT III.

1. Jazz Piano 1 on the LX Sahiaman mics
http://www.box.com/s/he6ofjk8byfp6mfzu7nn

2. Jazz Piano 2 on the LX Sahiaman mics
http://www.box.com/s/fig7acib4lphjxshspz6

3. Jazz Piano 3 on the LX Sahiaman mics http://www.box.com/s/ftb47ibf43knyutjydj4




Edited by Grandpianoman (02/05/12 04:31 PM)
Edit Reason: added content

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#1839073 - 02/05/12 03:45 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3555
Seeker,

I'm not sure but it might be that the two channels are still very slightly unbalanced. In fact I'm not sure how to get them exactly the same level. The amp knobs on the EMU are very small and even putting them at apparently exactly the same location seems to give a slight inbalance - actually more inbalance than when I adjust the levels from the scope image. But the scope image also remains a rough approximation since the two channels have quite a different signal

There is no cardioid option for the DPA4060, and even if it were I would not use it as it reduces the linearity of the mic (so it is coloring the sound).
_________________________

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#1839082 - 02/05/12 03:55 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Entheo]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2080
Originally Posted By: Entheo
Originally Posted By: charleslang
As far as the thread topic, my main discovery has been that the cardioid mics I have (the above plus Rode NT1-a's) have surprisingly small sweet spots. If I buy more mics, I think I'll probably try wide cardioid or omnidirectional ones.


charles, i'd recommend mics that are switchable, so you have lots of options. my $50 behringer c-3s have 3 positions: cardioid, figure 8 and omni.



Thanks. I thought the switchable mics were more expensive. That sounds like a great price to try one out.

To be fair to my current setup, I posted the same recording on box.net, with noticeably better quality: Improvisation

What I hear in this recording is that the tube mic gets a pretty beautiful reproduction of the mid and lower treble, and the M3's give the stereo image (they are panned full left and right while the ST-66 is panned center). What it needs is something to get the overtones in the bass, to get the growl of the strings; I think I will experiment with using an NT1-a for that.


Edited by charleslang (02/05/12 04:04 PM)
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

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#1839201 - 02/05/12 07:39 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: charleslang]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 518
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: charleslang
Originally Posted By: Entheo
Originally Posted By: charleslang
As far as the thread topic, my main discovery has been that the cardioid mics I have (the above plus Rode NT1-a's) have surprisingly small sweet spots. If I buy more mics, I think I'll probably try wide cardioid or omnidirectional ones.


charles, i'd recommend mics that are switchable, so you have lots of options. my $50 behringer c-3s have 3 positions: cardioid, figure 8 and omni.



Thanks. I thought the switchable mics were more expensive. That sounds like a great price to try one out.

To be fair to my current setup, I posted the same recording on box.net, with noticeably better quality: Improvisation

What I hear in this recording is that the tube mic gets a pretty beautiful reproduction of the mid and lower treble, and the M3's give the stereo image (they are panned full left and right while the ST-66 is panned center). What it needs is something to get the overtones in the bass, to get the growl of the strings; I think I will experiment with using an NT1-a for that.


WOW! ya... totally BETTER sound this time.... In the room sound (listening on the MMG maggies, so I can't speak to the bass!!)

Love it! Super-clear... ARt? not science?

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#1839226 - 02/05/12 09:17 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2080
Originally Posted By: johngrant
Originally Posted By: charleslang


To be fair to my current setup, I posted the same recording on box.net, with noticeably better quality: Improvisation

What I hear in this recording is that the tube mic gets a pretty beautiful reproduction of the mid and lower treble, and the M3's give the stereo image (they are panned full left and right while the ST-66 is panned center). What it needs is something to get the overtones in the bass, to get the growl of the strings; I think I will experiment with using an NT1-a for that.


WOW! ya... totally BETTER sound this time.... In the room sound (listening on the MMG maggies, so I can't speak to the bass!!)

Love it! Super-clear... ARt? not science?


smile smile thanks so much for those words. smile Yeah I think it feels like science for the first 40 setups, and then when it finally feels like art it's absolutely the payoff.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

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#1839926 - 02/07/12 12:13 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: charleslang]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 518
Loc: canada
I'm narrowing down the sound/mic placement of the 414s. Lid full stick. The music stand/whatever-you-call-it is also gone. That made a big difference. Both mics at the front of the piano, just underneath the lid, but the treb mic a little beyond the lid facing at a6, approx. Both mics about 16 inches off the strings.

Oh almost forgot: Cardioid setting and 80hz cut on the bass (also a setting on the mic)

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o


Edited by johngrant (02/07/12 12:14 AM)

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#1839950 - 02/07/12 01:13 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2080
Originally Posted By: johngrant
I'm narrowing down the sound/mic placement of the 414s. Lid full stick. The music stand/whatever-you-call-it is also gone. That made a big difference. Both mics at the front of the piano, just underneath the lid, but the treb mic a little beyond the lid facing at a6, approx. Both mics about 16 inches off the strings.

Oh almost forgot: Cardioid setting and 80hz cut on the bass (also a setting on the mic)

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o


I listened to it a couple of times. To me, the upper melody sounds similar to what you hear being in a medium-sized stone church in a pew halfway back, with the piano at the front. I think it's nice for the meditational, trance-inducing qualities of Bach. A few notes of the bass are boomy.

Another take on Bach (other than the church/trance/meditational) would be more focused and intimate, with more of the attack. Aiming the mics closer to the hammer line might do this (assuming they're not already aimed there).
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

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#1839993 - 02/07/12 06:05 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: charleslang]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 518
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: charleslang
Originally Posted By: johngrant
I'm narrowing down the sound/mic placement of the 414s. Lid full stick. The music stand/whatever-you-call-it is also gone. That made a big difference. Both mics at the front of the piano, just underneath the lid, but the treb mic a little beyond the lid facing at a6, approx. Both mics about 16 inches off the strings.

Oh almost forgot: Cardioid setting and 80hz cut on the bass (also a setting on the mic)

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o


Yes... I will post the raw (without added reverb) version. And then I will try lowering the mics!

JG

I listened to it a couple of times. To me, the upper melody sounds similar to what you hear being in a medium-sized stone church in a pew halfway back, with the piano at the front. I think it's nice for the meditational, trance-inducing qualities of Bach. A few notes of the bass are boomy.

Another take on Bach (other than the church/trance/meditational) would be more focused and intimate, with more of the attack. Aiming the mics closer to the hammer line might do this (assuming they're not already aimed there).

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#1840229 - 02/07/12 02:42 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2080
Originally Posted By: johngrant
Originally Posted By: charleslang
Originally Posted By: johngrant
I'm narrowing down the sound/mic placement of the 414s. Lid full stick. The music stand/whatever-you-call-it is also gone. That made a big difference. Both mics at the front of the piano, just underneath the lid, but the treb mic a little beyond the lid facing at a6, approx. Both mics about 16 inches off the strings.

Oh almost forgot: Cardioid setting and 80hz cut on the bass (also a setting on the mic)

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o


Yes... I will post the raw (without added reverb) version. And then I will try lowering the mics!

JG

I listened to it a couple of times. To me, the upper melody sounds similar to what you hear being in a medium-sized stone church in a pew halfway back, with the piano at the front. I think it's nice for the meditational, trance-inducing qualities of Bach. A few notes of the bass are boomy.

Another take on Bach (other than the church/trance/meditational) would be more focused and intimate, with more of the attack. Aiming the mics closer to the hammer line might do this (assuming they're not already aimed there).


There is reverb and there is reverb. I use the freeware Audacity and I'm not sure what other programs offer exactly. In audacity it's possible to adjust slider bars for 'dampening', 'room size', 'early reflection' and 'tail reflection' levels (the effect is called "Gverb" in Audacity).

I'm not sure what you mean about lowering the mics. If the capsules are pointed down at the piano, lowering the mic has the effect in cardioid of narrowing the sweet spot and I think raises the possibility that some certain notes or certain sounds are prominent. I found that even with my ST-66 fully 32 inches above the pinblock (pointed down) that it mattered a lot where I aimed it, and it got a pretty good attack sound. Your piano and mics are completely different, though, obviously . . . Good luck.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

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#1840268 - 02/07/12 03:42 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
Originally Posted By: johngrant
I'm narrowing down the sound/mic placement of the 414s. Lid full stick. The music stand/whatever-you-call-it is also gone. That made a big difference. Both mics at the front of the piano, just underneath the lid, but the treb mic a little beyond the lid facing at a6, approx. Both mics about 16 inches off the strings.

Oh almost forgot: Cardioid setting and 80hz cut on the bass (also a setting on the mic)

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o


john, that's a very nice sound; i like those AKGs. just so i'm clear re: your treb mic placement -- your mic is parallel to the keyboard, pretty much over your dampers, and facing the tuning pins for A6? (i'm surprised you're not picking up a lot of damper noise)
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#1840288 - 02/07/12 04:29 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Seeker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 360
Loc: Rockville, MD
Sounds great.
Can you post a photo of your placement?
================
I'm glad you tried full stick.
It really helps.
===================
You might also try the AKGs in omni pattern.
As I recall, the response is flatter.
=====================
I agree with CL, the AKG C414s sound great,
different from the Neumann U-87, but less than half the price,
and just as sweet.
==============================
Regarding damper noise, the Hailun seems exemplary in that regard.
I went to the bass mic over the tail end of the bass strings on my original piano, because of some wooshing from the triangular cut dampers in the bass region. Moving the mics down the strings from the dampers eliminated that problem.
===================
Have you decided to buy the C414s yet?
Or are you going to try others as well?
==================
AK
_________________________
Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")

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#1840459 - 02/07/12 11:28 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Entheo]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 518
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: Entheo
Originally Posted By: johngrant
I'm narrowing down the sound/mic placement of the 414s. Lid full stick. The music stand/whatever-you-call-it is also gone. That made a big difference. Both mics at the front of the piano, just underneath the lid, but the treb mic a little beyond the lid facing at a6, approx. Both mics about 16 inches off the strings.

Oh almost forgot: Cardioid setting and 80hz cut on the bass (also a setting on the mic)

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o



john, that's a very nice sound; i like those AKGs. just so i'm clear re: your treb mic placement -- your mic is parallel to the keyboard, pretty much over your dampers, and facing the tuning pins for A6? (i'm surprised you're not picking up a lot of damper noise)


Not facing the pins, at this point, but over the dampers facing away from the keyboard...towards the long end of the piano. I'm now set up so that i can fairly quickly hear the results of different mic positions. I will start keeping a log of the results and that way, I hope, find out which mic position I like the most. It's pretty clear that with this piano in this room, I HAVE to have the bass cut switch on at 180. Any lower, and I get boom.

So I'm still at the drawing board.

I probably SHOULD try a few other types of mics before parting with cash...

JG


Edited by johngrant (02/07/12 11:29 PM)

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#1840485 - 02/08/12 12:26 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5317
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Does anyone have any experience with the Audix SCX25a-ps. I've used an Audix measurement mic (TR40a) for spectrum analysis work but not for general recording. No, I don’t know why not—it would probably work reasonably well—but the SCX25a-ps mics are sold as a matched pair for piano use. Not cheap, though.

ddf
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Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1840488 - 02/08/12 12:37 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2362
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Speaking of mic positions....this mic position is what we used for all the EBVT III recordings that I have posted. In fact, I made a mistake when I said we used the Avenson's ....it was actually the Rode NT5 as pictured....my apologies.

This mic position was one I was not aware of and was suggested by Patrick. I don't remember the name for it. The rule is to put your head in different positions until you hear the best sound, then, put the mics at those angles in the pic, one at 9 o'clock, the other at 12 o'clock, and exactly 12 inches apart between the front two mic capsules. The Edwards string cover was not in place during the recordings.



Here is what we achieved with that mic position.

1. Rode NT5 Patrick improvising http://www.box.com/shared/8nh2hfye4o and http://www.box.com/shared/afkxg3yln2

2. Rode NT5 Patrick improv http://www.box.com/shared/uhmv9g5dvh

3. Rode NT5 Patrick improv "Kristallen den Fina" http://www.box.com/shared/l2553oa4ha

4. Rode NT5 Patrick improv 4 diminished chords http://www.box.com/shared/5dhsvufjge

5. Rode NT5 Patrick improv 4 dim chords transposed http://www.box.com/shared/9gh67aqris

6, Rode NT5 Gregg playing Windam Hill/George Winston http://www.box.com/shared/ld9sd3267z



This is interesting...same piece on the LX...one with the Avensons the other the NT5's. The Rodes are cardiods, the Avensons are omnis. You can buy omni capsules for the Rodes.

1. Rode NT5's Rachmaninoff on the LX http://www.box.com/shared/3z4gjyjnt9

2, Avenson STO-2 Rachmaninoff on the LX http://www.box.com/shared/xpl5mszzpr



Edited by Grandpianoman (02/08/12 12:43 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#1840626 - 02/08/12 10:35 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Grandpianoman]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
This mic position was one I was not aware of and was suggested by Patrick. I don't remember the name for it.


that looks like the ORTF technique...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORTF_stereo_technique
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#1840758 - 02/08/12 03:02 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2362
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Entheo, just to clarify...I found the post in my EBVT III thread where Patrick explains about this mic position.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1424097/21.html

an excerpt from that:

Yes, good explanation of the NOS stereo technique. Just to clarify, the left mic is -45 degrees off the center, the right mic is +45 degrees off the center, making the angle between the two mics 90 degrees.

It gives a remarkable stereo capture, and I personally like it a bit more than the ORTF standard which has a wider angle and closer distance between the mics. The NOS is somewhat more focused to me.

If you record people talking in NOS and then play it back, listening through your headphones, sometimes you will hit the stop button just because you think somebody in the room is talking to you... only to realize that the talk stops when you hit the stop button



Here is another example of this mic position on a full blown classical piece, played here by the composer Ernst Von Dohnanyi on the Ampico, from the original piano roll circa 1920. Rode NT5's.

Konzertstuden-Concert Study Opus 28 No5 in E Major- composed and played by Ernst von Dohnanyi on the Ampico.mp3

http://www.box.com/shared/ktyp9u27iy





Edited by Grandpianoman (02/08/12 03:37 PM)
Edit Reason: added content

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#1840859 - 02/08/12 06:17 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Grandpianoman]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 518
Loc: canada
OK here's the latest attempt (with pianistic boo boos but that's not relevant here!!!)

http://www.box.com/s/pp0zh66ly8dovi269cgy

Pics and mic placement etc.. I'll add after dinner!!

http://www.box.com/s/si7i2cpnu27qbyx3tffs


Don't know how to post this pic here!

1) Piano at full stick but covered with an absorbant material
2) 1st 414 mic underneath the piano (not visible in the pic) 1 foot from the soundboard, at rear of piano, pointing towards the soundboard. Set at "Omni" with no bass cut.
3) 2nd 414 mic as in pic, about a foot above C7 pointing slightly down towards the middle of the piano. Set at "Omni" with 160hz bass cut.



JG


Edited by johngrant (02/08/12 09:21 PM)

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#1841120 - 02/09/12 08:00 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
john, fwiw, i like the previous placement & setting a bit better; i liked the lower reg resonance of those settings (i think that may have been a result of your bass mic in cardioid setting and some proximity effect [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kl_D93mMrk] which, altho unwanted near the dampers produced a nice rich sound for you. btw, i'm listening on a very good JBL sat sys with subwoofer, and there was no boominess to my ears on your previous settings). thanks for posting all your experiments; i'm in the same process but with much less capable mics than yours so altho this is good grist for the mill it's a bit apples to oranges. i would suggest you try the cantrell method for the treb mic as follows; i'm quite pleased with it (i'm doing half-stick to make room for the bass mic under the lid): http://innig.net/music/recordings/method/mics.html

re: posting pix, here's my method: create a free tinypic.com account, upload your pix, copy the full URL, then in the post menubar click the 'enter image' button and paste the URL; preview to be sure it's coming thru, et voila.


Edited by Entheo (02/09/12 08:22 AM)
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diary of an amateur pianist

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#1841145 - 02/09/12 08:56 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 518
Loc: canada
One thing is for sure... when you go through this process you really begin to understand the sorts of judgement calls that are made in recording studios.

The toughest thing for me is the coloration that seems to creep into various piano recordings, whether they're recorded close up or at a distance, in the room.

I've figured out, too, that most solo classical piano recordings are "in the hall" type recordings; but I think I'm starting to prefer the close-mic sound more. The in the hall option isn't open to me anyway.

Omni does seem to create a somewhat more reverberant sound than cardioid.

JG

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#1841187 - 02/09/12 10:30 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
Originally Posted By: johngrant
One thing is for sure... when you go through this process you really begin to understand the sorts of judgement calls that are made in recording studios.


and we're just talking mic placement sans effects, processing etc.

Originally Posted By: johngrant
The toughest thing for me is the coloration that seems to creep into various piano recordings, whether they're recorded close up or at a distance, in the room.

I've figured out, too, that most solo classical piano recordings are "in the hall" type recordings; but I think I'm starting to prefer the close-mic sound more. The in the hall option isn't open to me anyway.


i've come to the same conclusion with my setup. i might add a little seasoning (touch of reverb, possibly compression & makeup gain) but discretion is the better part of valor.
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diary of an amateur pianist

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#1841213 - 02/09/12 11:20 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Seeker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 360
Loc: Rockville, MD
Edit on 2/9 @ 9:40PM EST--- changed my mind. Listened again on my studio monitors (Alesis Ones, nothing fancy, but if it sounds good on them, it will sound good on something else). I actually liked the final cut the best. But, as I wrote earlier, I think either cut is more than satisfactory.
=============================================

I'm with Entheo. I liked the previous placement a bit better in terms of clarity of the bass - BUT - either are fine.

BTW - very nice playing on a very nice sounding piano.

Folks with recording studios might take note of the quality of the Hailun 218 and its price point.

Can we see a photo of the previous placement please?



Edited by Seeker (02/09/12 09:40 PM)
Edit Reason: Changed my mind
_________________________
Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
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1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")

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#1841253 - 02/09/12 12:46 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Seeker]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 518
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: Seeker
I'm with Entheo. I liked the previous placement a bit better in terms of clarity of the bass - BUT - either are fine.

BTW - very nice playing on a very nice sounding piano.

Folks with recording studios might take note of the quality of the Hailun 218 and its price point.

Can we see a photo of the previous placement please?



I don't know about the "playing"!

Anyhow, the only photo I have that I can be sure relates to a specific placement that I can be certain of is the one via the Box link above.

I can say that the recording that was preferred was essentially very, very different. By far the biggest change I made was to try out something my wife suggested, viz: to dampen the overall character of the sound. Not energetic enough to attempt to dampen the entire room, I figured I'd just thro∑ something over the piano, which is the tacky material you see in the pic.

Like everybody here, I listen to the sound file through most of the speakers/devices at hand (giant MAC monitor, ProAc Response 1sc, MMG (maggies), HR 824s (which are just too complimentary--they make everything sound plausible and even fantastic). Having said that, I'm leaning towards the rag-over-the piano, with one 414 under the piano, sound.

The journey goes on.

JG

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#1841274 - 02/09/12 01:28 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5317
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Is it just my screen or has this thing really grown so large that it is now necessary to scroll way over to the right to read the second half of each sentence?

When the oversize picture went up things got a little weird but it is now getting ridiculous.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
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(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1841318 - 02/09/12 02:51 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2362
Loc: Portland, Oregon
That is strange Del. On my laptop, the pic I posted fits within the normal parameters of this post, I don't have to scroll to the right. Sometimes I do see over-sized pics and I then i have to scroll to the right to read the text.

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#1841340 - 02/09/12 03:36 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Grandpianoman]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5317
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
That is strange Del. On my laptop, the pic I posted fits within the normal parameters of this post, I don't have to scroll to the right. Sometimes I do see over-sized pics and I then i have to scroll to the right to read the text.

Odd. Ever since the picture first appeared on my screen the message frame--or whatever it's called--has been getting wider. Your whole post appears on one line with room left over for half-again that many more words.

ddf

(Ah! I might just have solved my own problem. When you said your screen was normal I went looking. Under the "Tools" menu I found a "Compatibility" setting and added PianoWorld to an otherwise empty list. I don't know what else might be getting screwed up as a result but at least this screen now looks normal.)


Edited by Del (02/09/12 03:42 PM)
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
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Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1841354 - 02/09/12 04:03 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
scratch that; still experimenting... shocked


Edited by Entheo (02/09/12 05:44 PM)
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#1842064 - 02/10/12 05:05 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Entheo]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
here's an interesting tidbit -- the following graph from a recording i did of the same piece, one on half stick and one on full stick, mics in same position, omni mode:



you'll notice how much more fully saturated the mics are on half stick. then the question becomes which sounds better to one's ear.
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#1842268 - 02/10/12 10:43 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5317
Loc: Olympia, Washington
I’m still curious about the Audix SCX-25a-ps. This is a two-mic package intended for use on—actually, in—the piano. This is what Audix has to say about it:
Quote:
[The] piano is one of the most challenging instruments to reproduce, particularly in a live performance where there are other instruments on stage. The SCX25A, in addition to producing a highly transparent and remarkably accurate sound, is designed so that it can be easily positioned parallel to the soundboard. To further enhance ease of placement, Audix provides the Dflex mounting clip which attaches directly to the rail of the piano, enabling the microphone to be placed securely just about anywhere on the soundboard.

In a live sound or live broadcast environment, the instruments surrounding the piano will often bleed into the piano mics. In order to compensate for this sound leakage, it requires the piano be played in either the short stick or closed lid position. The SCX25A, with its low profile and phase coherent reproduction, is the best microphone for this application.

With its innovative design and patented capsule suspension system, the SCX25A has earned a reputation for the most compact large diaphragm condenser microphone on the market. The piano package includes two SCX25A mics, 2 Dflex mounting clips, and 2 high quality quad conductor microphone cable with braided shield to help reduce noise induction from external sources.


I have a client enquiring about this setup. I’ve found a couple of “reviews” in the internet but I’ve not been able to find anyone who has actually used it or who has any personal experience with it. It’s a little on the pricey side at around $1,600 for a pair of mics and the “mounting clips,” etc., but if it can be used to successfully mic a piano with the lid on half-stick my client would be happy—well, at least willing—to pay the price.

Anyone?

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1842427 - 02/11/12 08:20 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
hi del, so take my research & opinion with a grain of salt...

your post implies (to me) that your client needs to mic a piano for live performances. altho piano mics designed for live performance can perform admirably in the studio, it appears you will pay a premium for systems that eliminate or reduce proximity effect when the lid is closed/lowered. therefore, if the application is only for a studio (home or otherwise) where bleed is not an issue, you can probably take that money and buy mics (tube) that produce a much richer sound, e.g. 300 series from Mojave Audio, Charter Oaks or AKGs.

there is an in-piano system that i came across that sounds beautiful, and it sounds as good with the lid closed as open. it's also easy to set up and move around -- perfect for live performances. the drawback of course is the price.

it's the earthworks piano system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7HTqlXcZRI

soundpure does lots of mic testing for acoustic piano. you can see their many youtube videos and contact them; i have and they're very helpful and friendly.
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#1842456 - 02/11/12 09:24 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Del]
Seeker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 360
Loc: Rockville, MD
Del - perhaps this link will help. There are sound samples there that include the mics about which you are asking.
http://www.earthworksaudio.com/our-microphones/pianomic-series-2/

The Earthworks system sounds phenomenally good, and it is priced roughly twice that of the Audix system. My bet is, that with the Audix, the 90/10 rule would come into play, i.e., for half the price you get 90% (or better) of what you get for a lot more ca$h.

For about half the price of the Audix, I'm pretty sure you could successfully mic a piano at half stick with something like the Shure KSM-141 or even some of the very small diaphragm pencil condensers.
_________________________
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Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
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Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")

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