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Hi John,

In all those recordings, except where noted, the player system is the "LX" from www.live-performance.com Some recent news about the LX....Fazioli will install an LX into one of their grands for the Frankfurt Musikmesse in March, 2012.

All the recordings I have made, there is no after-processing done. It's straight from the mics to the Korg or Zoom H4, then converted to an MP3.

Here are a few more recordings of my M&H BB that I made that day with the Sahiaman mics. It's not in pristine tune, hammers need some voicing, but you still can get a feel for the mics.

Also, I tried these mics over at a friends house with a professional classical guitarist. I made an A_B with the Avenson's as well.

As I listen to these recordings over my headphones, I am struck at how my piano does not sound like it's from 1925. It has it's original soundboard. Other than that, everything else was rebuilt, new Isasac Bass strings, also his "classical west" hammers, new Roslau wire, new Tokiwa action, a new W&G carbon fiber back action. It also has the "Wapin" bridge conversion. It just goes to show you that an older well restored piano can compete with the new ones


1. Avenson STO-2 mics Classical Guitar http://www.box.com/s/06dxhgagt93ly3zcgisj

2. Sahiaman mics Classical Guitar http://www.box.com/s/1imx0kiqlayaqb2f2zjm


The tuning is all EBVT III.

1. Jazz Piano 1 on the LX Sahiaman mics
http://www.box.com/s/he6ofjk8byfp6mfzu7nn

2. Jazz Piano 2 on the LX Sahiaman mics
http://www.box.com/s/fig7acib4lphjxshspz6

3. Jazz Piano 3 on the LX Sahiaman mics http://www.box.com/s/ftb47ibf43knyutjydj4

Seeker,

I'm not sure but it might be that the two channels are still very slightly unbalanced. In fact I'm not sure how to get them exactly the same level. The amp knobs on the EMU are very small and even putting them at apparently exactly the same location seems to give a slight inbalance - actually more inbalance than when I adjust the levels from the scope image. But the scope image also remains a rough approximation since the two channels have quite a different signal

There is no cardioid option for the DPA4060, and even if it were I would not use it as it reduces the linearity of the mic (so it is coloring the sound).

Thanks. I thought the switchable mics were more expensive. That sounds like a great price to try one out.

To be fair to my current setup, I posted the same recording on box.net, with noticeably better quality: Improvisation

What I hear in this recording is that the tube mic gets a pretty beautiful reproduction of the mid and lower treble, and the M3's give the stereo image (they are panned full left and right while the ST-66 is panned center). What it needs is something to get the overtones in the bass, to get the growl of the strings; I think I will experiment with using an NT1-a for that.

WOW! ya... totally BETTER sound this time.... In the room sound (listening on the MMG maggies, so I can't speak to the bass!!)

Love it! Super-clear... ARt? not science?

thanks so much for those words. Yeah I think it feels like science for the first 40 setups, and then when it finally feels like art it's absolutely the payoff.

I'm narrowing down the sound/mic placement of the 414s. Lid full stick. The music stand/whatever-you-call-it is also gone. That made a big difference. Both mics at the front of the piano, just underneath the lid, but the treb mic a little beyond the lid facing at a6, approx. Both mics about 16 inches off the strings.

Oh almost forgot: Cardioid setting and 80hz cut on the bass (also a setting on the mic)

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o

I listened to it a couple of times. To me, the upper melody sounds similar to what you hear being in a medium-sized stone church in a pew halfway back, with the piano at the front. I think it's nice for the meditational, trance-inducing qualities of Bach. A few notes of the bass are boomy.

Another take on Bach (other than the church/trance/meditational) would be more focused and intimate, with more of the attack. Aiming the mics closer to the hammer line might do this (assuming they're not already aimed there).

There is reverb and there is reverb. I use the freeware Audacity and I'm not sure what other programs offer exactly. In audacity it's possible to adjust slider bars for 'dampening', 'room size', 'early reflection' and 'tail reflection' levels (the effect is called "Gverb" in Audacity).

I'm not sure what you mean about lowering the mics. If the capsules are pointed down at the piano, lowering the mic has the effect in cardioid of narrowing the sweet spot and I think raises the possibility that some certain notes or certain sounds are prominent. I found that even with my ST-66 fully 32 inches above the pinblock (pointed down) that it mattered a lot where I aimed it, and it got a pretty good attack sound. Your piano and mics are completely different, though, obviously . . . Good luck.

john, that's a very nice sound; i like those AKGs. just so i'm clear re: your treb mic placement -- your mic is parallel to the keyboard, pretty much over your dampers, and facing the tuning pins for A6? (i'm surprised you're not picking up a lot of damper noise)

Sounds great.
Can you post a photo of your placement?
================
I'm glad you tried full stick.
It really helps.
===================
You might also try the AKGs in omni pattern.
As I recall, the response is flatter.
=====================
I agree with CL, the AKG C414s sound great,
different from the Neumann U-87, but less than half the price,
and just as sweet.
==============================
Regarding damper noise, the Hailun seems exemplary in that regard.
I went to the bass mic over the tail end of the bass strings on my original piano, because of some wooshing from the triangular cut dampers in the bass region. Moving the mics down the strings from the dampers eliminated that problem.
===================
Have you decided to buy the C414s yet?
Or are you going to try others as well?
==================
AK

Not facing the pins, at this point, but over the dampers facing away from the keyboard...towards the long end of the piano. I'm now set up so that i can fairly quickly hear the results of different mic positions. I will start keeping a log of the results and that way, I hope, find out which mic position I like the most. It's pretty clear that with this piano in this room, I HAVE to have the bass cut switch on at 180. Any lower, and I get boom.

So I'm still at the drawing board.

I probably SHOULD try a few other types of mics before parting with cash...

JG

Does anyone have any experience with the Audix SCX25a-ps. I've used an Audix measurement mic (TR40a) for spectrum analysis work but not for general recording. No, I don’t know why not—it would probably work reasonably well—but the SCX25a-ps mics are sold as a matched pair for piano use. Not cheap, though.

ddf

Speaking of mic positions....this mic position is what we used for all the EBVT III recordings that I have posted. In fact, I made a mistake when I said we used the Avenson's ....it was actually the Rode NT5 as pictured....my apologies.

This mic position was one I was not aware of and was suggested by Patrick. I don't remember the name for it. The rule is to put your head in different positions until you hear the best sound, then, put the mics at those angles in the pic, one at 9 o'clock, the other at 12 o'clock, and exactly 12 inches apart between the front two mic capsules. The Edwards string cover was not in place during the recordings.



Here is what we achieved with that mic position.

1. Rode NT5 Patrick improvising http://www.box.com/shared/8nh2hfye4o and http://www.box.com/shared/afkxg3yln2

2. Rode NT5 Patrick improv http://www.box.com/shared/uhmv9g5dvh

3. Rode NT5 Patrick improv "Kristallen den Fina" http://www.box.com/shared/l2553oa4ha

4. Rode NT5 Patrick improv 4 diminished chords http://www.box.com/shared/5dhsvufjge

5. Rode NT5 Patrick improv 4 dim chords transposed http://www.box.com/shared/9gh67aqris

6, Rode NT5 Gregg playing Windam Hill/George Winston http://www.box.com/shared/ld9sd3267z



This is interesting...same piece on the LX...one with the Avensons the other the NT5's. The Rodes are cardiods, the Avensons are omnis. You can buy omni capsules for the Rodes.

1. Rode NT5's Rachmaninoff on the LX http://www.box.com/shared/3z4gjyjnt9

2, Avenson STO-2 Rachmaninoff on the LX http://www.box.com/shared/xpl5mszzpr

that looks like the ORTF technique...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORTF_stereo_technique

Entheo, just to clarify...I found the post in my EBVT III thread where Patrick explains about this mic position.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1424097/21.html

an excerpt from that:

Yes, good explanation of the NOS stereo technique. Just to clarify, the left mic is -45 degrees off the center, the right mic is +45 degrees off the center, making the angle between the two mics 90 degrees.

It gives a remarkable stereo capture, and I personally like it a bit more than the ORTF standard which has a wider angle and closer distance between the mics. The NOS is somewhat more focused to me.

If you record people talking in NOS and then play it back, listening through your headphones, sometimes you will hit the stop button just because you think somebody in the room is talking to you... only to realize that the talk stops when you hit the stop button


Here is another example of this mic position on a full blown classical piece, played here by the composer Ernst Von Dohnanyi on the Ampico, from the original piano roll circa 1920. Rode NT5's.

Konzertstuden-Concert Study Opus 28 No5 in E Major- composed and played by Ernst von Dohnanyi on the Ampico.mp3

http://www.box.com/shared/ktyp9u27iy

OK here's the latest attempt (with pianistic boo boos but that's not relevant here!!!)

http://www.box.com/s/pp0zh66ly8dovi269cgy

Pics and mic placement etc.. I'll add after dinner!!

http://www.box.com/s/si7i2cpnu27qbyx3tffs


Don't know how to post this pic here!

1) Piano at full stick but covered with an absorbant material
2) 1st 414 mic underneath the piano (not visible in the pic) 1 foot from the soundboard, at rear of piano, pointing towards the soundboard. Set at "Omni" with no bass cut.
3) 2nd 414 mic as in pic, about a foot above C7 pointing slightly down towards the middle of the piano. Set at "Omni" with 160hz bass cut.



JG

john, fwiw, i like the previous placement & setting a bit better; i liked the lower reg resonance of those settings (i think that may have been a result of your bass mic in cardioid setting and some proximity effect [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kl_D93mMrk] which, altho unwanted near the dampers produced a nice rich sound for you. btw, i'm listening on a very good JBL sat sys with subwoofer, and there was no boominess to my ears on your previous settings). thanks for posting all your experiments; i'm in the same process but with much less capable mics than yours so altho this is good grist for the mill it's a bit apples to oranges. i would suggest you try the cantrell method for the treb mic as follows; i'm quite pleased with it (i'm doing half-stick to make room for the bass mic under the lid): http://innig.net/music/recordings/method/mics.html

re: posting pix, here's my method: create a free tinypic.com account, upload your pix, copy the full URL, then in the post menubar click the 'enter image' button and paste the URL; preview to be sure it's coming thru, et voila.

One thing is for sure... when you go through this process you really begin to understand the sorts of judgement calls that are made in recording studios.

The toughest thing for me is the coloration that seems to creep into various piano recordings, whether they're recorded close up or at a distance, in the room.

I've figured out, too, that most solo classical piano recordings are "in the hall" type recordings; but I think I'm starting to prefer the close-mic sound more. The in the hall option isn't open to me anyway.

Omni does seem to create a somewhat more reverberant sound than cardioid.

JG

and we're just talking mic placement sans effects, processing etc.



i've come to the same conclusion with my setup. i might add a little seasoning (touch of reverb, possibly compression & makeup gain) but discretion is the better part of valor.