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Edit on 2/9 @ 9:40PM EST--- changed my mind. Listened again on my studio monitors (Alesis Ones, nothing fancy, but if it sounds good on them, it will sound good on something else). I actually liked the final cut the best. But, as I wrote earlier, I think either cut is more than satisfactory.
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I'm with Entheo. I liked the previous placement a bit better in terms of clarity of the bass - BUT - either are fine.

BTW - very nice playing on a very nice sounding piano.

Folks with recording studios might take note of the quality of the Hailun 218 and its price point.

Can we see a photo of the previous placement please?

I don't know about the "playing"!

Anyhow, the only photo I have that I can be sure relates to a specific placement that I can be certain of is the one via the Box link above.

I can say that the recording that was preferred was essentially very, very different. By far the biggest change I made was to try out something my wife suggested, viz: to dampen the overall character of the sound. Not energetic enough to attempt to dampen the entire room, I figured I'd just thro∑ something over the piano, which is the tacky material you see in the pic.

Like everybody here, I listen to the sound file through most of the speakers/devices at hand (giant MAC monitor, ProAc Response 1sc, MMG (maggies), HR 824s (which are just too complimentary--they make everything sound plausible and even fantastic). Having said that, I'm leaning towards the rag-over-the piano, with one 414 under the piano, sound.

The journey goes on.

JG

Is it just my screen or has this thing really grown so large that it is now necessary to scroll way over to the right to read the second half of each sentence?

When the oversize picture went up things got a little weird but it is now getting ridiculous.

ddf

That is strange Del. On my laptop, the pic I posted fits within the normal parameters of this post, I don't have to scroll to the right. Sometimes I do see over-sized pics and I then i have to scroll to the right to read the text.

Odd. Ever since the picture first appeared on my screen the message frame--or whatever it's called--has been getting wider. Your whole post appears on one line with room left over for half-again that many more words.

ddf

(Ah! I might just have solved my own problem. When you said your screen was normal I went looking. Under the "Tools" menu I found a "Compatibility" setting and added PianoWorld to an otherwise empty list. I don't know what else might be getting screwed up as a result but at least this screen now looks normal.)

scratch that; still experimenting...

here's an interesting tidbit -- the following graph from a recording i did of the same piece, one on half stick and one on full stick, mics in same position, omni mode:



you'll notice how much more fully saturated the mics are on half stick. then the question becomes which sounds better to one's ear.

I’m still curious about the Audix SCX-25a-ps. This is a two-mic package intended for use on—actually, in—the piano. This is what Audix has to say about it:


I have a client enquiring about this setup. I’ve found a couple of “reviews” in the internet but I’ve not been able to find anyone who has actually used it or who has any personal experience with it. It’s a little on the pricey side at around $1,600 for a pair of mics and the “mounting clips,” etc., but if it can be used to successfully mic a piano with the lid on half-stick my client would be happy—well, at least willing—to pay the price.

Anyone?

ddf

hi del, so take my research & opinion with a grain of salt...

your post implies (to me) that your client needs to mic a piano for live performances. altho piano mics designed for live performance can perform admirably in the studio, it appears you will pay a premium for systems that eliminate or reduce proximity effect when the lid is closed/lowered. therefore, if the application is only for a studio (home or otherwise) where bleed is not an issue, you can probably take that money and buy mics (tube) that produce a much richer sound, e.g. 300 series from Mojave Audio, Charter Oaks or AKGs.

there is an in-piano system that i came across that sounds beautiful, and it sounds as good with the lid closed as open. it's also easy to set up and move around -- perfect for live performances. the drawback of course is the price.

it's the earthworks piano system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7HTqlXcZRI

soundpure does lots of mic testing for acoustic piano. you can see their many youtube videos and contact them; i have and they're very helpful and friendly.

Del - perhaps this link will help. There are sound samples there that include the mics about which you are asking.
http://www.earthworksaudio.com/our-microphones/pianomic-series-2/

The Earthworks system sounds phenomenally good, and it is priced roughly twice that of the Audix system. My bet is, that with the Audix, the 90/10 rule would come into play, i.e., for half the price you get 90% (or better) of what you get for a lot more ca$h.

For about half the price of the Audix, I'm pretty sure you could successfully mic a piano at half stick with something like the Shure KSM-141 or even some of the very small diaphragm pencil condensers.

Thanks for the link.

I’ve heard about the Earthworks PianoMic system but have never seen one in action. For my client the Audix system would be a stretch, though, so I’m quite sure they would not go for something twice as expensive.

The goal is to come up with a system that can be simply installed—without requiring a lot of experimentation—and left in place. It would be used primarily as a live system and only secondarily for recording.

ddf

I have a recording studio and a grand piano and I have found that a pair of Countryman Isomax II Omni mics work extremely well on piano with lid open or closed or half stick and they are about $200 each. You can use a piece of tape or almost any kind of clip to attach them to the plate struts at appropriate locations. They are extremely small, invisible to an audience, and pick up with great precision and detail. Really a sleeper mic, but I would definitely give them a try before shelling out $1200 on the Audix mics. Buy them from an online retailer that has a good return policy and if you don't like them, send them back for the Audix mics, but I have a feeling you won't be sending them back. That's must my 2 cents worth, but I have a/b'd them with some U87's and the sound stood up amazingly well. Full Compass sells them for less than $200, but there return policy is not as generous as some other retailers. (read 15% restocking fee)

for that purpose you may want to look at the piano-specific M40 boundary mic; @ $450 thru musiciansfriend.com:

http://www.appliedmicrophone.com/products/show/13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zsp93jgXqc

http://innig.net/music/recordings/method/mics.html

Thanks to all who responded. I'll pass all this on to my client.

It is apparent that there are still no easy choices or solutions—which is, of course, what my client is interested in finding.

ddf

Pianolance....curious as to how these the Isomax II sounds...do you have any sound files you can share here? I like the specs, especially the frequecy range of the 2.0 20-20, and the OSL, 150 db SPL. Would like to hear a sample you have made, since you have a recording studio and grand....thanks, GPM

Del, forgot to mention this.....Kawai makes this for grand pianos...it looks pretty good, but I have never heard a sample. It may be worth a look by your client, since it's very simple to use and set up.


http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/Special/pr-1.html

Interesting.

And it reminds me of a question I intended to ask but then forgot: Is there any practical downside to miking the piano from the bottom. In theory, at least, essentially the same sound energy and waveform should be radiated from the bottom of the soundboard panel as from the top.

ddf

Good question Del...there must be something positive about that, maybe that's why Kawai designed their system utilizing the underside of the piano.

Also, I just read the PDF on the Kawai PR-1...it's also for uprights and other instruments!

http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/grands_09/PR-1/brochure_om/PR-1.pdf

I notice it's a little shy on specifications of any kind.

Any idea of the cost?

ddf

the sound file of the kawaii system doesn't sound good at all to my ear, and they muck it up with tons of reverb -- not a good example. besides, that system seems wholly inappropriate for live use; seems like a very simple home recording system for pressing a CD.

here's a link to a Shure PDF regarding mic placement. in general they discourage under piano placement as muddy. my experiments confirm muddiness. again that would not be appropriate placement in a live situation...

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/public/documents/webcontent/us_pro_micsmusicstudio_ea.pdf

lastly, here's another very simple piano system from DPA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjILuNfLr-U

i think they also have a non-stereo option, which is appropriate for ensemble live performance. along with the M40 i'm not sure it gets much simpler for live performance.