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#1876698 - 04/10/12 09:23 AM W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118
bone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 31
I came across a used W. Hoffman piano which was made in 2006 in the Bechstein factory in Czechoslovakia but was told that it was on display for a long time and was actually only used for 1 year by a primary school student. It costs JPY 800K (around USD 10K). I wonder if this is worth it. I am also looking for used Petrof but they are hard to come by in Japan and are going to be clost to JPY 700K if not more. Which one is better? I am not good at all and took lessons as a kid but never practised. I am thinking about playing again as an adult after over 20 years. Thanks.

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#1876856 - 04/10/12 02:43 PM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
hoola Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 167
Loc: LA, USA
I had a new Hoffman 114 Made in West Germany in 1988. At that time Hoffman was superior than Petrof. Now Hoffman are made in East Europe, but I believe that they are still better than Petrof. I prefre Hoffman's full-body sound to Petrof's bright sound.

I'm not sure about the Hoffman action now, my was Renner. If Hoffman still has Renner than go for it. Action is very important, especially when piano get old, then good action will cost you less a bad action.

Cheers

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#1876925 - 04/10/12 04:26 PM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
bone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 31
Thanks, the action is from Renner

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#1877197 - 04/11/12 12:36 AM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: hoola]
bone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 31
Is JPY 800K (USD 10K) a fair price?

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#1877212 - 04/11/12 01:09 AM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
What is a fair price? A comparison of what is available in your area will tell if it is a fair price. The same piano may be much cheaper in an area that is economically depressed with a large supply and low demand, and the other way around. You need to do the homework yourself where you live (Japan?).
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1877259 - 04/11/12 03:33 AM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: hoola]
ChrisVenables Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: Hampshire, England
Originally Posted By: hoola
I had a new Hoffman 114 Made in West Germany in 1988. At that time Hoffman was superior than Petrof. Now Hoffman are made in East Europe, but I believe that they are still better than Petrof. I prefre Hoffman's full-body sound to Petrof's bright sound.


Cheers


Hello bone

Bechstein Czech made Hoffmanns are nothing like as good as the taller Hoffmanns that were made in Langlau, Germany (approx up until the late 80's ). $10K is way too much also.

Petrof's on the other hand are much better than they were. Their range of models is vast and has changed considerably in recent years so it's much harder to advise without knowing which Petrof you are considering.

If you are based in Japan, why not go for the obvious 'safe bets' Kawai and Yamaha? A recent second hand Yamaha SU118 or SU131 are worth searching for, or IMO any new from Kawai K5 and above or Yam YUS1 and above.

Good luck with your search.
_________________________
Tech. & Partner: Venables Pianos
Yamaha Piano UK main dealer and Grand Piano Centre
Stocking new Yamaha, Brodmann and Venables & Son

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#1877328 - 04/11/12 07:57 AM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
bone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 31
Thanks. I did my homework and apparently pianos in Japan are a lot more expensive than in elsewhere. E.g. A Hoffman of 117 cm made in 2000 costs JPY 735k, and a new Kawai K5 costs about JPY 700k. I do not really like the sound of Yamaha pianos.

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#1877397 - 04/11/12 10:07 AM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
bone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 31
Another choice out here is a 1976 Sauter S113 for JPY 698K, but this is rather old. I can go and try if this seems to have good potential.

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#1877399 - 04/11/12 10:11 AM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
bone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 31
Another choice out here is a 1976 Sauter S113 for JPY 698K, but this is rather old. I can go and try if this seems to have good potential.

http://www.imported-piano.com/sauter/113_700.gif

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#1877403 - 04/11/12 10:21 AM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
bone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 31
Another choice out here is a 1976 Sauter S113 for JPY 698K, but this is rather old. I can go and try if this seems to have good potential.

http://www.imported-piano.com/sauter/113_700.gif

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#1877516 - 04/11/12 01:09 PM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
hoola Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 167
Loc: LA, USA
When I bought my Hoffman 114 in 1988, at same size Hoffman was more expensive than Schimmel, a little more expensive than Seiler, Sauter. I also prefer sound of Hoffman to others of the same price range.

Once in a while I have opportunity to play these pianos and I see that sound signatures are nearly the same, but quality might be different, especially when the production moves to other countries with different tradition and culture. Hoffman made in East Europe should be cheaper than West Europe because of lower cost.

Please refer to Pianobuyer.com’s pricing list to get an idea of fair price. I would try to pay less than the price you have

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#1877681 - 04/11/12 05:54 PM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
bone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 31
Thanks for the suggestion. This would be about 17% off the suggested maximum price of a new one with this 2006 model which has been used for about one year. I will see if I can further negotiate but bargaining is not a common practice here. My target price is JPY 750,000.

A new Petrof upright of 118cm would be about JPY 900K.

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#1877749 - 04/11/12 07:50 PM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
hoola Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 167
Loc: LA, USA
When I bought my new Hoffman I also had about 15% off the suggested maximum, but it was in France and I'm not sure about Japan, but I think that a big item's price as piano should be flexible, especially when it is used. Good luck

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#1882736 - 04/19/12 11:51 PM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
bone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 31
Thanks for your help. That Hoffman piano has been sold to another customer last week. I decided against it because the shop is too far away and I would have to fly there to view it, and I was not comfortable buying it unseen.

I will see if I there are cheap pre-owend Sauter pianos available.

The search will continue....

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#1883063 - 04/20/12 03:08 PM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
hoola Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 167
Loc: LA, USA
In 1990-1991, when I was shopping around for my grand piano and moved away from my upright Hoffman 114, I chose piano in the price range that I could afford, I remembered the sound signature of brands at that time as follow:
(in ascendent price order):
1. Schimmel: dry sound, unattractive, finition was not as good as other West Germany brands.
2. Seiler: too glassy, bright, superficial, I did not like this sound at all.
3. Sauter: OK, but I was willing to pay more to get better.
4. Hoffman: noisy, messed, mingled, too warm.
5. Ibach: good, but kind of hold-back sound, not as open as I want
6. Grotrian: I was immediately hooked and did not look further because out of affordability. But I am still satisfield with Grotrian even when comparing it to more expensive brands like Steinway, Bosen, Bechstein. At this tier, this is more a question of taste than quality.

In brief, I think that now I look for balance than warm (Hoffman) or dry sound (I classify Yamaha in this family), and Sauter is more balance than Hoffman, so you should not be sorry for missing the Hoffman.





Edited by hoola (04/20/12 03:09 PM)

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#1883096 - 04/20/12 04:02 PM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
The previous Hoffman and current W.Hoffman are not same pianos - in fact they were quite different.

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1883465 - 04/21/12 06:39 AM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
bone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 31
The older Hoffman (German made ones) cost more than 1.2 million yen. I don't think I can afford that. So hopefully there will be a used Sauter soon.

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#2034546 - 02/17/13 12:58 AM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
ycJenny Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 1
Hi, this is Jenny from Hong Kong. Recently, I came across a "Bechstein" made W Hoffman with a Serial number "144868". Asking for around USD5K. I am not good at piano, but I would like to get one good second hand European brand piano for my girls. It is only a rare chance to see a good 2nd hand European piano on sale in Hong Kong, so I don't want to miss the chance if it is a good one. I hope someone in this forum can give me your generous advice. I would appreciate very much.

Since the piano says "made by BECHSTEIN", can I assume it is made in Czech Republic rather than Germany?
The owner said, she shipped the piano from the US to Hong Kong. Does W Hoffmann sell in the US too?

Jenny

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#2034556 - 02/17/13 02:05 AM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: bone]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Thanks, the action is from Renner


How do you know this?
W.Hoffman never used Renner actions...

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2034565 - 02/17/13 02:32 AM Re: W. Hoffman H120 against Petrof 118 [Re: Norbert]
hoola Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 167
Loc: LA, USA
My W. Hoffman H114 has Renner action, 200% sure + 800% sure = 1000% sure.

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