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#1877583 - 04/11/12 03:06 PM Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932?
GEMtastic Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/11/12
Posts: 5
I'm looking at buying a rebuilt Mason and Hamlin AA and I have a choice between either a 1919 or a 1932. I wanted to get some opinions and thoughts on the AA from those years. I'm going to have the belly and the action completely rebuilt but not the exterior.

thank you
Grant

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#1877627 - 04/11/12 04:21 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: GEMtastic]
PianoWorksATL Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2745
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Not knowing what other factors could be, I'd opt for the earlier one.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
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#1877633 - 04/11/12 04:29 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: GEMtastic]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3341
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
The later one has a 2 bridge design that is better than the earlier 3 bridge design. However, some of those AAs from the teens, if rebuilt beautifully, can be absolutely magic pianos.
It will really depend on the skill of the rebuilder and the extent of the rebuild.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1877646 - 04/11/12 05:12 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: Keith D Kerman]
GEMtastic Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/11/12
Posts: 5

When you say one bridge is better, can I ask what that means? Are we talking a tonal issue or a stability of tuning issue or something else entirely?

thank you
Grant

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#1877668 - 04/11/12 05:37 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: GEMtastic]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3341
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
It is not a matter of 2 bridges being better than 3 bridges, it is a way to identify which design of Mason & Hamlin you are looking at. If you look inside these Mason & Hamlins, one will have 2 bridges and one will have 3 bridges. The tenor area in the Mason with 3 bridges has some real sound issues if not addressed in the rebuild with modification. The rest of that piano is amazing, though.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1877693 - 04/11/12 06:09 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: GEMtastic]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1974
Loc: Philadelphia area
I like the two bridge design myself. Your tastes may lean to the three bridge design. I'm trying to think of where to go to do comparison.

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#1877740 - 04/11/12 07:35 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: GEMtastic]
Eric Gloo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1253
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
Do you already have someone to rebuild the piano? If so, what does this person think? Does the rebuilder have experience with the 2-bridge and 3-bridge AA's? If so, are there samples of his work you can sample to see which you prefer?
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#1877764 - 04/11/12 08:18 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: Keith D Kerman]
GEMtastic Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/11/12
Posts: 5
Is that modification something that is common knowledge in the Mason and Hamlin rebuilding community?

thanks
Grant

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#1877768 - 04/11/12 08:21 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: Eric Gloo]
GEMtastic Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/11/12
Posts: 5
Good point. I'm going to call tomorrow to ask.

Grant

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#1877840 - 04/11/12 10:17 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: GEMtastic]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21811
Loc: Oakland
There are AAs with a tenor bridge which loops back for the wound strings, others with a Y for the wound strings, and others with no special bridge and fewer wound strings. I doubt that most players would pay much attention to which they are playing on. In short, it is not likely to be a factor, whether it is modified or not.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1877862 - 04/11/12 10:53 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: GEMtastic]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3341
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Well, it's a factor if you play music that utilizes the tenor section of the piano. And if you listen. Most players who pay attention to how a piano sounds will notice it. I am sure that is why Mason & Hamlin changed the design, as did Steinway, whose model A1 is the piano on which the 3 bridge Mason & Hamlin AAs were based.

Originally Posted By: GEMtastic
Is that modification something that is common knowledge in the Mason and Hamlin rebuilding community?


I would say that better rebuilders who have rebuilt a couple of the older AAs begin to address this in one way or another.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1877871 - 04/11/12 11:16 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: GEMtastic]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21811
Loc: Oakland
Mason & Hamlin changed their scales many, many times. They thought that the three bridge design was adequate for 30-odd years, despite the fact that they could have changed it any time. People bought them anyway.

Because of the many scales Mason & Hamlin has used, I have no qualms about rescaling their pianos, and the result has always been good, no matter what the design of the piano. But there are other people who restring with the original scale, and their results are good, too.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1878047 - 04/12/12 07:33 AM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: GEMtastic]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2358
Loc: Lowell MA
Piano manufacturers such as Steinway and Mason Hamlin discontinued the three bridge design to reduce manufacturing costs.

It was sold to the public as an "Improvement"

Those who liked the old sound better disagreed.

Those who liked the new sound, agreed.

The United States has had regular depressions in the economy along with challenges from other "Leisure" businesses such as the Phonograph and the radio that also challenged Piano Sales ..

These changes in the economic climate drove changes in piano manufacturing.

These "discussions" within the piano industry are documented by many in the industry at that time.




_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#1878053 - 04/12/12 08:07 AM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: Larry Buck]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3341
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Piano manufacturers such as Steinway and Mason Hamlin discontinued the three bridge design to reduce manufacturing costs.

It was sold to the public as an "Improvement"

Those who liked the old sound better disagreed.

Those who liked the new sound, agreed.

The United States has had regular depressions in the economy along challenges from other "Leisure" businesses such ad the Phonograph and the radio that also challenged Piano Sales ..

These changes in the economic climate drove changes in piano manufacturing.

These "discussions" within the piano industry are documented by many in the industry at that time.


While I agree that many many changes over the years in Steinways and Mason & Hamlins were done to cut costs, I don't believe that Steinway, who changed the A1 with a 3 bridge design to the A2 with a 2 bridge design in 1895 ( give or take ) or Mason & Hamlin made this design change for cost cutting measures. I would be very interested in seeing something documented for this specific change in these specific models.
I certainly also respect that someone might prefer or love the sound of the Steinway A1 and of the earlier M&H AAs, but if they also felt the tenor section in these pianos was better than in the later models, or even was good or fine in and of itself, I would be pretty surprised at the least, and wonder what they were listening to.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1878097 - 04/12/12 09:38 AM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2358
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Piano manufacturers such as Steinway and Mason Hamlin discontinued the three bridge design to reduce manufacturing costs.

It was sold to the public as an "Improvement"

Those who liked the old sound better disagreed.

Those who liked the new sound, agreed.

The United States has had regular depressions in the economy along challenges from other "Leisure" businesses such ad the Phonograph and the radio that also challenged Piano Sales ..

These changes in the economic climate drove changes in piano manufacturing.

These "discussions" within the piano industry are documented by many in the industry at that time.


While I agree that many many changes over the years in Steinways and Mason & Hamlins were done to cut costs, I don't believe that Steinway, who changed the A1 with a 3 bridge design to the A2 with a 2 bridge design in 1895 ( give or take ) or Mason & Hamlin made this design change for cost cutting measures. I would be very interested in seeing something documented for this specific change in these specific models.
I certainly also respect that someone might prefer or love the sound of the Steinway A1 and of the earlier M&H AAs, but if they also felt the tenor section in these pianos was better than in the later models, or even was good or fine in and of itself, I would be pretty surprised at the least, and wonder what they were listening to.


Your opinion on what sound is better, 3 bridge or 2 bridge ... Is just that, Opinion. And, your opinion is correct for your taste. To further say that "your" oinion on taste accounts for what manufacturers decisions were historically could be misleading. Respectfully, of course.

Other professionals research into manufacturers documents, personal letters and diaries is extensive and far beyond my experience.

As noted in my other post, Bill Shull will be speaking at my shop for an all day seminar on May 12th 2012.

Bill, by all accounts, it that professional who has done exhaustive research in this area. I would invite all who are interested to attend.

Kieth, I spoke to you on the phone recently and I know you will be unable to attend. Perhaps we can get an opinion from Bill on this question ??
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#1878122 - 04/12/12 10:23 AM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: GEMtastic]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3341
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Hey Larry,

Of course it is my opinion. And I would be very interested if Bill had any research, specifically on what we are discussing as to why these changes were made. I would also be interested in his opinion regarding the sound in these different pianos, both historically, and his personal preferences.

So, Larry, do you have any personal preference for the sound in the tenor section of any of the different model A Steinways, or model AA Masons? Or do you think they are all equally good, but just different?
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1878143 - 04/12/12 10:56 AM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: GEMtastic]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21811
Loc: Oakland
A lot of things are only noticeable when there is something else to compare. Take away the comparison, and it is no longer an issue.

In this case, we have not established what scale the '32 piano has. That was a transitional period, and I would not be able to say which of the (at least) three possibilities it is.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1878163 - 04/12/12 11:35 AM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2358
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
Hey Larry,

Of course it is my opinion. And I would be very interested if Bill had any research, specifically on what we are discussing as to why these changes were made. I would also be interested in his opinion regarding the sound in these different pianos, both historically, and his personal preferences.

So, Larry, do you have any personal preference for the sound in the tenor section of any of the different model A Steinways, or model AA Masons? Or do you think they are all equally good, but just different?



Thanks Kieth,

I am alluding to conversations I have had with Bill when I mention manufacturers reasons for changes made historically. I have done some research and reading as well. Bill is far and away an expert on this.

Actually, I like both scales. The three bridge design has it's intent and it is quite successful. If it is ones intent to create the type of balance you get in a three bridge design in a two bridge design, then, proper application of sound board work and hammer choice gets you reasonably close.
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#1878223 - 04/12/12 01:24 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: Larry Buck]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3341
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
I knew you were going to say you liked both.........

I am not sure what you mean by balance in the 3 bridge design as the tenor just sounds like a completely different piano ( on the Steinway A1 and AAs with 3 bridges ) than the rest of the piano, and to me, it sounds weak and choked in the tenor, whether it is on one of these pianos in all original condition or if the piano has been rebuilt beautifully without changing the design, new board or original board.

Hammer choice, hammer weight, hammer voicing and soundboard work can certainly help the 3 bridge models to sound and work better in that area, but if I am reading you correctly, you are saying you think the 3 bridge Steinway A1 and the 3 bridge M&H AAs have better balance in the tenor than the later 2 bridge Steinway As and M&H AAs? Did I read that right?
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1878237 - 04/12/12 01:50 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2358
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
I knew you were going to say you liked both.........

I am not sure what you mean by balance in the 3 bridge design as the tenor just sounds like a completely different piano ( on the Steinway A1 and AAs with 3 bridges ) than the rest of the piano, and to me, it sounds weak and choked in the tenor, whether it is on one of these pianos in all original condition or if the piano has been rebuilt beautifully without changing the design, new board or original board.


The territory we would call balance is created in the belly work. Hammers exploit that territory.

Just because you might call some work "Beautifully Done" does not also mean the proper territory has been created or hammers properly chosen and voiced for the result you would like to expect.

A belly in and of itself is a balance of many relationships. Even before it is glued into the piano. The definition of these choices as good for your intended result or not will not be known until the piano is done and playable.

I would spend more time considering those initial choices and less time discounting a particular design.

It seems true that 3 bridges simplifies some aspects and complicates others all at the same time.

I would like to have the opportunity to play an A1 88 right after completion in the 1890's .... And hear the result of Steinway's choices then.
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#1878260 - 04/12/12 02:44 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: Larry Buck]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3341
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
I knew you were going to say you liked both.........

I am not sure what you mean by balance in the 3 bridge design as the tenor just sounds like a completely different piano ( on the Steinway A1 and AAs with 3 bridges ) than the rest of the piano, and to me, it sounds weak and choked in the tenor, whether it is on one of these pianos in all original condition or if the piano has been rebuilt beautifully without changing the design, new board or original board.


Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
The territory we would call balance is created in the belly work.


That still tells me nothing about what you mean by balance, especially in the tenor of one of these pianos. I can guess at what you mean, but my definition of balance in the sound of a piano may not be yours. Can you better explain what you mean here, especially as it relates to the sound of a Steinway A1 or 3 bridge M&H AA in the tenor section?

Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Just because you might call some work "Beautifully Done" does not also mean the proper territory has been created or hammers properly chosen and voiced for the result you would like to expect.


True. But, it also doesn't mean that what I have experienced doesn't exceed whatever it is you are using proper territory to express and how you would define hammers properly chosen and voiced etc.
I am not saying I have heard everything or know everything, far from it. I would also be very interested to hear an A1 or 3 bridge M&H AA that has not been modified from the original design that doesn't have the sound problems that I associate with those designs. I would very much enjoy learning something new here. And I would be very pleasantly surprised to find one of these instruments working well in the tenor without some modification.
Of course, I have no idea what your standard is for acceptable sound and performance in one of these instruments.

Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
A belly in and of itself is a balance of many relationships. Even before it is glued into the piano. The definition of these choices as good for your intended result or not will not be known until the piano is done and playable.

I would spend more time considering those initial choices and less time discounting a particular design.


I would counter this by saying if you have enough experience and have considered these choices carefully enough, and execute them with sufficient skill, you should get your intended result.
If a car has a square wheel, it doesn't matter how much time you consider the type of tire you will use.
Sorry Larry, I'm just having some fun with you based on the tone of your writing. I hope you don't take offense, and I do hope one day to hear an A1 or 3 bridge M&H AA that you consider right. I would be delighted to also find that I thought it met my standard, especially in the tenor. At a minimum, were that to occur, I would better understand what you are writing about.


Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
It seems true that 3 bridges simplifies some aspects and complicates others all at the same time.


Just to make it clear, I am not blaming the deficiencies I hear in those pianos on the fact that they have a 3 bridge design. I am just using the number of bridges as an easy way to reference the different designs.

Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
I would like to have the opportunity to play an A1 88 right after completion in the 1890's .... And hear the result of Steinway's choices then.


I would love this as well, although there are definately other vintage Steinways and Masons that I would be considerably more interested in hearing and playing right after original completion.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1878282 - 04/12/12 03:15 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: GEMtastic]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2358
Loc: Lowell MA
Thanks for the phone call Keith ... I agree, some things are semantics.

I will admit that some of what I say is vague, and purposely so. There are some examples of views I will not express if feel if it explains my choices to clearly.

Can't give it all away ... not a good business decision.


Edited by Larry Buck (04/12/12 05:20 PM)
Edit Reason: Needful Spelling Correction
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#1878366 - 04/12/12 05:12 PM Re: Mason and Hamlin AA 1919 or 1932? [Re: Larry Buck]
GEMtastic Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/11/12
Posts: 5
Wow, interesting. So what I'm hearing is that the 1919 may be trickier to restore and have some issues in the tenor range if it is not done well but the upside is tremendous if the rebuilder knows what to looks for. The 32 would be the safer bet? I'm assuming that the 32 is still going to have that great MH warm tone. The only thing I have to compare it with is the 1923 6'3" Sohmer that's been partially rebuilt I've been playing. It has some odd overtones in the Bflat below C and a glassy, clean tone.

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