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#1876472 - 04/09/12 09:13 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Rickster]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: Roger Ransom
Wow, I would LOVE to 'hear' the whole story from Brodman and the technician's perspective. This certainly sounds cut and dried but I have found many times in the past that there are often several sides to most stories.

You know, you are right, Roger... there are two sides to every story. I think sometimes we are too quick to pass judgment (myself included) without all the evidence, from both sides.

Rick

That is certainly true.
However after seeing the itemized invoice that the same technician provided (on another piano) it sure appears that there is something pretty questionable about the work mentality.
It was like he was just making stuff up and I certainly can't imagine a true professional listing things like that.
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1876483 - 04/09/12 09:23 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
I don't know if this will come across gently enough, so please pardon if this sounds a bit rough edged.

I believe that Dan is rightly upset with this situation, and he has presented good evidence of the shoddy work done by this other "tech."

But he has also taken Brodmann to task:

Quote:
I am, at present, aware of two other Brodman products both with warranty items for repair. (Seemingly, not a good mark of brand quality: P*D)

The chances of ANY technician locally here doing warranty work for a Brodman piano in the future?

Slim to no chance at all. Distaste for the corporation's attitude and tactics.


Whenever a customer comes on this board to vent about a dealer or a manufacturer the attitude of many is generally quite suspicious. Strong claims about product deficiencies or bad dealer tactics are often scrutinized quite closely. This is the "other side of the story" some have mentioned.

Yet here we have a maker whose quality control is challenged, and whose relationships with dealers and technicians is strongly criticized. Nary a peep of contest about this.

I have no dog in this fight, to be sure. I just find this curious.

Perhaps Brodmann should see this thread and respond?
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1876516 - 04/09/12 10:27 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
I've spent most of my career working as a manufacturers rep, including years as a service manager and as such I wouldn't go near this thread.
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

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#1876703 - 04/10/12 09:35 AM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Not a peep from old Norbert. Seems a bit odd.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1876760 - 04/10/12 11:33 AM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Bob]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bob
Regarding those Bosie bass strings - I'm guessing the tech did not have the correct replacement strings, and simply put something in there on a temporary basis so the piano could be played until the correct replacements arrived. That temporary repair would be preferred over removing the hammer, or blocking the key. At least the key would function and not disrupt the pianist. Simply doing nothing would allow the hammer to wedge between two adjacent bass strings, stressing the hammer flange, and causing key touch issues. Hopefully, the repair was supposed to last just a few days, till new strings arrived.


Bob,

From page one your query;

Regarding the Bosie strings; those photos were taken July 14, 2007. The treble wire replacements are still there.

Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Not a peep from old Norbert. Seems a bit odd.


Not really. If you read the email I posted that came directly from Brodman administration clearly Norbert and any technicians that responded have been dismissed from the responsibility of this file along with any obligation as to warranty requirements.

So I am not sure why he would respond at all.


_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1876919 - 04/10/12 04:18 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Piano*Dad]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Not a peep from old Norbert. Seems a bit odd.



Maybe he knows that if he posted anything he would attract flak.

But it appears that even without posting anything he still seems to get attention.

Poor Norbert. eek
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1877310 - 04/11/12 07:23 AM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
CTPianotech Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 1473
Loc: CT
Dan--It seems as though the manufacture, faced with a difficult situation, has decided to do whatever it takes to keep the customer happy---even if that means additional (and likely unjustified) expense to them. I just hope you're able to get paid for the work you've done.


Piano*Dad--Some technicians, as a matter of routine, check the tightness of the plate bolts. Unfortunately, there are some who get a bit uhh, 'over-enthusiastic' when tightening these bolts. Without having personally checked the piano out before and after, it's difficult to say if the stripped out bolt is something that happened during manufacturing process, or after...
_________________________
Rich Lindahl
Piano Restorations in Central CT
D-C installations, Player-Piano installations/service
Ritmuller/Pearl River

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#1877345 - 04/11/12 08:32 AM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: CTPianotech]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: CTPianotech
Dan--It seems as though the manufacture, faced with a difficult situation, has decided to do whatever it takes to keep the customer happy---even if that means additional (and likely unjustified) expense to them. I just hope you're able to get paid for the work you've done.


Piano*Dad--Some technicians, as a matter of routine, check the tightness of the plate bolts. Unfortunately, there are some who get a bit uhh, 'over-enthusiastic' when tightening these bolts. Without having personally checked the piano out before and after, it's difficult to say if the stripped out bolt is something that happened during manufacturing process, or after...



I agree with both of your observations.

What I am pointing out is that Dan has said things that someone like me (a completely neutral and disinterested party) easily sees as disparaging remarks about the quality of Brodmann products and about their management.

When a customer makes comments of a similar sort about any particular maker, many people here at PW get all over them like the proverbial cheap suit.

Dan says he is aware of even more warranty issues on Brodmann pianos. One does not usually point out stuff like that (without evidence) unless one is venting, and that sort of venting usually gets a very chilly response from the ownership here, since manufacturers have a tendency to issue warnings about liability for .... ah, misstatement.

The implication of Dan's posting seems to be that Brodmann either doesn't believe him, or that Brodmann thinks that he and the unnamed (but probably Vancouver-located) dealer are somehow to blame for these repair problems.

Your explanation about Brodmann's thinking is much more likely, and much less inflammatory.

If you want to see inflammatory, just reread the thread title.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1877480 - 04/11/12 12:28 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Piano*Dad]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad

What I am pointing out is that Dan has said things that someone like me (a completely neutral and disinterested party) easily sees as disparaging remarks about the quality of Brodmann products and about their management.


Simply pointing out that it may now be difficult to get a local tech to deal with a few warranty issues with a few Brodmann pianos is hardly "disparaging remarks" in my opinion.

Everyone is pretty aware that it is not that uncommon among many brands that sometimes they require minor details to be attended to with a new piano.


Quote:
The implication of Dan's posting seems to be that Brodmann either doesn't believe him, or that Brodmann thinks that he and the unnamed (but probably Vancouver-located) dealer are somehow to blame for these repair problems.

If you want to see inflammatory, just reread the thread title.


Yes it does seem that way but I think many of us would also feel the same way because it would be hard to not take it personally as a personal affront when a company appears to support an incompetent tech when in fact all they are doing is just trying to bend to the wishes of the obviously misguided customer.


I think Brodmann did perhaps drop the ball in explaining their decision to the dealer and that they could have told him that everything the dealer did was proper but in order to make peace and for good public relations they have done what the customer wanted.

Sometimes I think it may be a bit of a problem at times with a few of the Chinese manufacturers (Hailun comes to mind) with regards to their relations with their dealer support.
I suspect that something like that might have to do with a recent change in Toronto with regards to Hailun dealer support.

Possibly their pianos building skills are improving at a faster rate than their dealer relation skills.

But I'm just an outsider thinking aloud so nobody should really put much stock into my musings.

(I think Brodmann pianos are outstanding).


Edited by Sparky McBiff (04/11/12 12:33 PM)
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1877513 - 04/11/12 01:05 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8418
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
I agree with both of your observations.

What I am pointing out is that Dan has said things that someone like me (a completely neutral and disinterested party) easily sees as disparaging remarks about the quality of Brodmann products and about their management.

When a customer makes comments of a similar sort about any particular maker, many people here at PW get all over them like the proverbial cheap suit.

Dan says he is aware of even more warranty issues on Brodmann pianos. One does not usually point out stuff like that (without evidence) unless one is venting, and that sort of venting usually gets a very chilly response from the ownership here, since manufacturers have a tendency to issue warnings about liability for .... ah, misstatement.

The implication of Dan's posting seems to be that Brodmann either doesn't believe him, or that Brodmann thinks that he and the unnamed (but probably Vancouver-located) dealer are somehow to blame for these repair problems.

Your explanation about Brodmann's thinking is much more likely, and much less inflammatory.

If you want to see inflammatory, just reread the thread title.

Piano*Dad, you make some very good points in your comments.

I might add, as a reminder to everyone here, we, as individuals, are responsible for what we write here on the forums, and not Piano World. This is plainly stated in the forum policies and rules.

Also, I think that the professionals here may be a little more outspoken or passionate about certain things they encounter in their daily experiences in the real world because it may affect their livelihoods or their reputations.

I too, would welcome more responses from industry professionals on the issues brought up in this thread.

In regards to the title of the thread, I’m not so sure the manufacturer has actually abandoned the dealer in this case… they simply allowed the piano owner to have their way in this particular situation in order to keep them happy.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1877599 - 04/11/12 03:41 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
The entire mess is easily understood if one reads all of the threads about this….

The instrument had a small warranty issue.

The dealer asked me if I could assist.

I asked the dealer to get instruction from the factory on the repair so as to cooperate with the warranty requirements from the manufacturer.

The factory sent specific instructions for repair.

I followed those instructions to the letter.

The owner’s technician, who had no verbal or written authorization to complete any warranty work on the piano, tampered with, or sabotaged the repair, then complained directly to the manufacturer unknown to anyone else.

The dealer was contacted and he in turn contacted me.

Along with another technician we all attended the owner’s home.

The owner claimed in front of the five people in attendance that the repair was failing. When asked how he came to know that the reply was failing he admitted …” we tested the repair”
This is deliberate and intentional tampering with a warranty approved repair....

The only way to test a screw repair is by over tightening therefore stripping the screw again….

The owner’s technician was asked a specific question “out of more than twenty screws in the plate on this model how did you come to be aware of one particular screw being loose originally?”
The only way would be to attempt to tighten them…..

In front of five people this technician states…. “I heard something in the tuning.”

Both myself and the other attending technician there at dealer request were dumbfounded.

Brodman is sent all details and two reports; one from me, one for the other technician.

Brodman goes with the owner and the owner’s technician, dismisses dealer and the two technicians one being myself.
Two days later Brodman calls the dealer with warranty problems on another Brodman instrument.

I know of another one with the identical developing problem as the above mentioned one.

Unlikely to have any technicians in Vancouver with a desire to assist.

This entire matter has come about because of a clearly unqualified technician doing sub- par work that Brodman has decided to go with. The photos I have shown of this technicians work speak for themselves.

The other real kicker? This one is amazing. This technician is a long time member of the Piano Technicians Guild, in fact an RPT.
Numerous other members of this local chapter have know about this kind of work going on, all of them have photos and documentation going back more than a decade and possibly more than two decades.

What have they done about it?

Nothing.





_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1877637 - 04/11/12 04:40 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I cannot help but wonder, if the entire point of posting these "three separate threads on this same issue" is just an excuse to poke, jab demean etc., at a manufacture, the PTG and RPT's in general. Perhaps it is time to just close it down....

What good can become of these derogatory statements? We have bad people in every profession there is. To use this forum as a means to state that this person was an RPT more than once is an intentional excuse to degrade the PTG and RPT in general in my opinion. Otherwise, why mention it? Have any one of us mentioned that we ran across such and such a piano that was butchered by a non RPT? That happens too you know... What good would that do? It is expected, to run across lousy work at some time or another from all professions.

Just because a person is a member of something, like MPT or AMA for example, does not ensure that they are all going to be good, honest professionals who will do their best work at all times. Frankly, I don't see the need for any of this myself.

As I have said elsewhere, there are good tuners and there are lousy tuners. There are good doctors and lousy doctors. There are good lawyers and lousy lawyers. There are good plumbers and bad plumbers... Do we all come in here to point out that this lawyer was a member of such and such group just to point that out?
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1877643 - 04/11/12 05:06 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
daifanshi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/23/04
Posts: 82
I thought the whole point of having "RPT" after a name was to assure the customer that an above standard level of quality and service would be provided. If that particular technician has somehow stayed under the radar for so long then that means there was a major failure somewhere. Or maybe that particular chapter of the PTG has become so badly politicized that they are unable/unwilling to police their own. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened to a trade group. Who knows?

Piano servicing is pretty unregulated from what I can tell, and as a customer I want somebody to tell me of a case where being an RPT might not be "all that". Makes me more careful when I need to pick a new one and to even be cautious when I see "RPT". So if all this is true, can somebody tell me what seeing "RPT" gives me as a customer? Or is this specific case so unusual?

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#1877648 - 04/11/12 05:15 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
Does the PTG have procedures for disciplining or correcting (don't know if those are the right words) members or RPTs who do shoddy work?
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#1877651 - 04/11/12 05:18 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8418
Loc: Georgia, USA
Okay, folks, I see this thread starting to get a little out of hand… maybe a lot out of hand.

Dan, I have enormous respect for you… you have helped me with my piano tech training as a distance mentor on numerous occasions; you along with a few other professional techicians here.

But, in all honesty, Jerry has a point… there are hacks in all professions and some do fall through the cracks in the competency checks and balances area.

You state your case clearly and concisely, and very articulately, I might add.

To be honest, I don’t know what the answer to this dilemma is or if there is an answer or resolution to be reached. Have you contacted the PTG and talked to anyone there about this?

Also, for the record, we have received a few moderator complaints about this thread, mostly from RPT members, complaining that you have some sort of vendetta against the RPT’s Guild, and that your threads on this issue are aimed more toward the PTG than the other tech said to be doing sub-standard work or the owner of the piano in question or the manufacturer.

Again, I have a lot of respect for you and it is not my place to judge your motives… you have not really named names or revealed the rogue tech or the dealer, for which I think you are very wise. You have revealed the brand/manufacturer, and the fact that the tech in question is said to be a member of the PTG; and, I’m not sure what to think about that…

I’m not sure what to say at this point or where this thread might be headed. You state your case well, and with some documented evidence; but the other side is not represented at all, at least that I can tell.

Having read this thread in its entirety, and your other thread on the technician’s forum, I’m inclined to agree with Sam Bennett… in our own state, Georgia, many professional organizations are not quick to issue punitive action or sanctions against a professional member of a guild or association without extensive examination, investigation and more investigation, by the officials of that organization. And, this type of investigation is usually prompted by consumer complaints and initiated through the various consumer advocate organizations such as the BBB or the Governor's office of consumer affairs. Some professions and skilled trades are regulated by the state and complaints are usually handled by the state governing body such the state licensing boards.

I work in the field of HVACR (Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning and Refrigeration) and hold all the appropriate professional licenses, certifications and academic degrees. I have seen certain licensed HVACR contractors contact the state licensing board to complain or report other licensed contractors, or contractors working without the appropriate licenses or certifications, for sub-standard work or for not having the appropriate licenses or certifications. The state licensing board can issue punitive actions, license suspensions, and even heavy monetary fines for sub-standard work or violation of state laws governing the HVACR industry in our state. Also, the licensing laws and regulations for HVACR vary from state to state.

With that said, there are still many HVACR hacks and wannabes, and some who hold the appropriate licenses and certifications, who are taking consumers for a ride by doing substandard work and offering expensive repairs or services that are not needed, or, in essence, doing more harm than good.. It is almost impossible to stop completely.

However, this is different for piano technicians, because there is no state or national mandate for professional licensing or requirements for belonging to any organization like the PTG (that I am aware of). For the piano industry it is more or less a preference or self imposed rule as to whether or not dealers or manufacturer require membership in any professional organization.

Hence, here lies the dilemma… the tech in question is said to be a member of the PTG, yet is accused of doing substandard or sloppy work by a highly respected and reputable non-RPT.

Gee… I don’t know… where does this all end?

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1877653 - 04/11/12 05:18 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada


Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
I cannot help but wonder, if the entire point of posting these "three separate threads on this same issue" is just an excuse to poke, jab demean etc., at a manufacture, the PTG and RPT's in general. Perhaps it is time to just close it down....


Sure thing that will make it all better...not deal with any of it.

Exactly the attitude the chapter here has had for more than a decade.

Jerry,

I didn’t want this situation to be the way it is. Yes there are bad apples in every group. Not weeding them out creates problems such as this……

Something else to consider. This whole thing was dropped on my desk when Ryan Sowers started his “perception of PTG from non-members” thread a couple of weeks ago.

I intentionally did not post this to that thread because I did not want it to seem like a vendetta.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1877661 - 04/11/12 05:25 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Rickster,
I completely understand your position in the matter. Do what you think is best. The whole story is out for members to form their own opinions. I have nothing further to add.

I have enough evidence to make my case on several fronts. All corroborated and substantiated by many involved.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1877667 - 04/11/12 05:35 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Dan,

It appeared to me that it was turning into a vendetta of sorts...

I would strongly suggest contacting the PTG home office directly in Canada as they would have to be the ones to deal with it. Not the chapter. We can do nothing about it here in the USA that I know of.

As we all know, not all tuners are bad, members or non members. What I do not like and I'm sure I am not the only one, is seeing the PTG as a whole mentioned in a negative way for obvious reasons.

I found Ryan's thread quite interesting myself. All of the answers posted there were informative I thought. smile
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1877678 - 04/11/12 05:51 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
I had the impression that the whole point of this thread was mainly the issue that Brodmann has acted questionably by meekly siding with the owner who insists on using an obviously inept technician.

The fact that he tech in question just happens to be an RPT is mentioned but I don't see it as being the focal point of the issue here.

We all know that there are bad people in every profession so I don't think everyone should go off on a tangent about the RPT thing since the MAIN POINT seems to be that Brodmann's actions have thrown a wrench into the workings of manufacturer/dealer relations in a relatively small market.

(It appears they are as adept at dealer relations as they are at making a useful website. Which is badly.) shocked

At least that's the way I'm seeing it.


Edited by Sparky McBiff (04/11/12 06:02 PM)
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1877684 - 04/11/12 05:58 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 844
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Well, with some sense of dread, I'll jump in f

The PTG website states: "A Registered Piano Technician (RPT) has passed a series of rigorous examinations on the maintenance, repair, and tuning of pianos. Only RPTs are authorized by The Piano Technicians Guild to display the logo containing the words “Registered Piano Technician”."

Additionally, I believe there is a "code of ethics" that RPT Techs are "suppposed" to subscribe to. In my 40 years of being in the piano business as a tuner and retailer, I have only known of ONE person who ever was admonished and removed from membership of the PTG, and that was in the SF Chapter. In that particular case, there had been egregious behavior for YEARS before such a roar went up that the organization had to do something or lose all credibility in our market - which I think is the point here.

I happen to have been in on this particular problem from the beginning, acting as a soundboard to the retailer - since we both carry the Brodmann line. In my NOT so humble opinion, the main mistake by the retailer was in letting the customer's technician, who the retailer had known previously and had known was "problematic," work on the instrument. Sometimes, IMHO, customers have to be protected against themselves. I know, I know, this often gets you a reputation for being difficult but better that than lawsuits. crazy

However, once the deed was done, IMHO the manufacturer should have firmly backed the dealer and the dealers trusted technicians in not only remedying the problem but also in ongoing service of the piano, for a very simple and logical reason; warranty of fitness.

I am not sure about the area where this piano was sold, but in California, there is a "warranty of fitness" which basically, as I understand it help means that a product must be fit to perform for the purposes it was sold, i.e. playing the piano. Obviously, the consumer will not sue the manufacturer but rather the dealer (who is local) if an issue arises. Even though the manufacturer "officially let the dealer off the hook" for the service on this piano, the dealer still has exposure. IMHO, the manufacturer should stand by the dealer not only for this very important reason, but also the fact that the dealer is its customer. I can understand a manufacturer cancelling a sub-par dealer who does not service their pianos properly and therefore cancelling the relationship, but that is NOT the case here. In fact, I know personally that the manufacturer is soliciting the dealer to buy more product in a large quantity. To me, if I were the dealer, I wouldn't even consider another order.

Most manufacturers know which of their dealers to trust. For example, with one manufacturer that we represented for 28 years, we placed only two warranty claims with them. It wasn't because we never had service issues with their product, but I just don't believe in "nickel and diming" manufacturers over small items. This works to my benefit because when I do make a call or claim, the manufacturers, for the most part, respond positively and immediately because they know I wouldn't bother them with a minor problem. The dealer in question has a very good reputation for service, and hires only quality technicians and the manufacturer should be standing clearly beside him, which they aren't.

One way the manufacturer COULD have solved the issue was to send a "factory technician" to the customer's home to examine the piano and the repairs and alterations. This should give the customer a renewed sense of confidence in the brand, and it would benefit the dealer if the customer's technician is the culprit (which I fully believe he is). This would also cement good feelings between the dealer and the manufacturer, and as an outside party it would be easier for the manufacturer to criticize the work of a local technician without repercussion. Unfortunately, this didn't transpire.

To me, the local PTG Chapter now has the ball in THEIR court. They can prove their worth by assembling a jury of approved examiners to look over the evidence and make a recommendation. Anything less would give credence to those who put little to no value on the RPT designation in the area of this chapter's influence.
_________________________
Russell I. Kassman
R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

FORMER US Rep.for C.Bechstein

SF Area Dealer: SteingraeberGrotrianSauterEstoniaKayserburgBaldwinBrodmannRitmller
www.rkassman.com
russell@rkassman.com
510.558.0765

Top
#1877705 - 04/11/12 06:36 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos


The other real kicker? This one is amazing. This technician is a long time member of the Piano Technicians Guild, in fact an RPT.
Numerous other members of this local chapter have know about this kind of work going on, all of them have photos and documentation going back more than a decade and possibly more than two decades.

What have they done about it?

Nothing.




Originally Posted By: master88er
To me, the local PTG Chapter now has the ball in THEIR court. They can prove their worth by assembling a jury of approved examiners to look over the evidence and make a recommendation. Anything less would give credence to those who put little to no value on the RPT designation in the area of this chapter's influence.




Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
I would strongly suggest contacting the PTG home office directly in Canada as they would have to be the ones to deal with it. Not the chapter. We can do nothing about it here in the USA that I know of.


I did not want to go here but I must. I knew this was going to happen and the PTG would come up. I saw the writing on the wall as I read the "more to the story" stuff.

We do not have a PTG home office in Canada. The local chapter has no way of dealing with members. Problems with any member has to be dealt with by the complainants and the home office in the U.S.

Blaming the local chapter is not justified for what has happened here.




_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


Top
#1877743 - 04/11/12 07:40 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Sparky McBiff]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1295
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff
I had the impression that the whole point of this thread was mainly the issue that Brodmann has acted questionably by meekly siding with the owner who insists on using an obviously inept technician.

The fact that he tech in question just happens to be an RPT is mentioned but I don't see it as being the focal point of the issue here.

We all know that there are bad people in every profession so I don't think everyone should go off on a tangent about the RPT thing since the MAIN POINT seems to be that Brodmann's actions have thrown a wrench into the workings of manufacturer/dealer relations in a relatively small market.

(It appears they are as adept at dealer relations as they are at making a useful website. Which is badly.) shocked

At least that's the way I'm seeing it.


+1
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#1877745 - 04/11/12 07:44 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: master88er]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1295
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: master88er
Well, with some sense of dread, I'll jump in f

The PTG website states: "A Registered Piano Technician (RPT) has passed a series of rigorous examinations on the maintenance, repair, and tuning of pianos. Only RPTs are authorized by The Piano Technicians Guild to display the logo containing the words “Registered Piano Technician”."

Additionally, I believe there is a "code of ethics" that RPT Techs are "suppposed" to subscribe to. In my 40 years of being in the piano business as a tuner and retailer, I have only known of ONE person who ever was admonished and removed from membership of the PTG, and that was in the SF Chapter. In that particular case, there had been egregious behavior for YEARS before such a roar went up that the organization had to do something or lose all credibility in our market - which I think is the point here.

I happen to have been in on this particular problem from the beginning, acting as a soundboard to the retailer - since we both carry the Brodmann line. In my NOT so humble opinion, the main mistake by the retailer was in letting the customer's technician, who the retailer had known previously and had known was "problematic," work on the instrument. Sometimes, IMHO, customers have to be protected against themselves. I know, I know, this often gets you a reputation for being difficult but better that than lawsuits. crazy

However, once the deed was done, IMHO the manufacturer should have firmly backed the dealer and the dealers trusted technicians in not only remedying the problem but also in ongoing service of the piano, for a very simple and logical reason; warranty of fitness.

I am not sure about the area where this piano was sold, but in California, there is a "warranty of fitness" which basically, as I understand it help means that a product must be fit to perform for the purposes it was sold, i.e. playing the piano. Obviously, the consumer will not sue the manufacturer but rather the dealer (who is local) if an issue arises. Even though the manufacturer "officially let the dealer off the hook" for the service on this piano, the dealer still has exposure. IMHO, the manufacturer should stand by the dealer not only for this very important reason, but also the fact that the dealer is its customer. I can understand a manufacturer cancelling a sub-par dealer who does not service their pianos properly and therefore cancelling the relationship, but that is NOT the case here. In fact, I know personally that the manufacturer is soliciting the dealer to buy more product in a large quantity. To me, if I were the dealer, I wouldn't even consider another order.

Most manufacturers know which of their dealers to trust. For example, with one manufacturer that we represented for 28 years, we placed only two warranty claims with them. It wasn't because we never had service issues with their product, but I just don't believe in "nickel and diming" manufacturers over small items. This works to my benefit because when I do make a call or claim, the manufacturers, for the most part, respond positively and immediately because they know I wouldn't bother them with a minor problem. The dealer in question has a very good reputation for service, and hires only quality technicians and the manufacturer should be standing clearly beside him, which they aren't.

One way the manufacturer COULD have solved the issue was to send a "factory technician" to the customer's home to examine the piano and the repairs and alterations. This should give the customer a renewed sense of confidence in the brand, and it would benefit the dealer if the customer's technician is the culprit (which I fully believe he is). This would also cement good feelings between the dealer and the manufacturer, and as an outside party it would be easier for the manufacturer to criticize the work of a local technician without repercussion. Unfortunately, this didn't transpire.

To me, the local PTG Chapter now has the ball in THEIR court. They can prove their worth by assembling a jury of approved examiners to look over the evidence and make a recommendation. Anything less would give credence to those who put little to no value on the RPT designation in the area of this chapter's influence.


As a piano technician and former piano dealer, I think this assessment is spot on.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#1877748 - 04/11/12 07:48 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Rod Verhnjak]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1295
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
Blaming the local chapter is not justified for what has happened here.


You are correct that PTG headquarters is the venue to be contacted. However, the chapter can engage the national office. There is nothing to stop them from making their Regional Vice President and the home office aware of the situation.

An action against a PTG member has to be brought by somebody -- and they could just as well be that someone.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#1877775 - 04/11/12 08:35 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
Quote:
Brodman goes with the owner and the owner’s technician, dismisses dealer and the two technicians one being myself.


Maybe I'm missing the point here but in my opinion; that is a smart decision by Brodmann. That will make the customer happy because the customer trusts his own technician. Now the customer's technician has all the responsibility and the dealer doesn't need to deal with the headache after they made all possible efforts to solve the problem.
It is likely that after all the customer will be happy and wouldn't badmouth Brodmann or the dealer since everybody made an effort to help them.

Complaining about the customer choosing *that* bad-technician, it reminds me of the guy asking why is she with that jerk? People like and trust whoever they want to like and trust regardless if it makes sense or not.
It doesn't matter if he is a good or bad technician the customer trusts him therefore is likely they'll be happy with his work. The technician will get pay by the manufacturer therefore he'll be happy as well.
Make sure you get pay for your time and move on. If Brodmann doesn't pay you the dealer should compensate you.





Edited by Kurtmen (04/11/12 08:58 PM)
_________________________
San Mateo Piano
Purveyors of:
Kawai, Wilh. Steinberg.
Kawai Digital Piano, Pianodisc.
<a href="http://sanmateopiano.com" style="color:#FF0505;font-size:10px;font-family:Times New Roman;text-decoration:underline;" target="_blank" >http://sanmateopiano.com</a>

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#1877776 - 04/11/12 08:36 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: kpembrook]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Quote:
Blaming the local chapter is not justified for what has happened here.


You are correct that PTG headquarters is the venue to be contacted. However, the chapter can engage the national office. There is nothing to stop them from making their Regional Vice President and the home office aware of the situation.

An action against a PTG member has to be brought by somebody -- and they could just as well be that someone.


Local chapter members have not seen fit to write a formal letter of complaint outlining their concerns about this technicians work, signed by all concerned members who have photos and documentation and sent the Regional Vice President.

I had the Regional Vice here for three hours last Thursday going over documents, photos and the invoice.

I am trying to do the right thing instead of nothing.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

Top
#1877784 - 04/11/12 08:45 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Quote:
Blaming the local chapter is not justified for what has happened here.


You are correct that PTG headquarters is the venue to be contacted. However, the chapter can engage the national office. There is nothing to stop them from making their Regional Vice President and the home office aware of the situation.

An action against a PTG member has to be brought by somebody -- and they could just as well be that someone.


Local chapter members have not seen fit to write a formal letter of complaint outlining their concerns about this technicians work, signed by all concerned members who have photos and documentation and sent the Regional Vice President.

I had the Regional Vice here for three hours last Thursday going over documents, photos and the invoice.

I am trying to do the right thing instead of nothing.


And as you being the complainant you're doing the correct procedure as I understand it.
_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


Top
#1877803 - 04/11/12 09:29 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
MiddleAgedProdigy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/28/11
Posts: 40
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Local chapter members have not seen fit to write a formal letter of complaint outlining their concerns about this technicians work, signed by all concerned members who have photos and documentation and sent the Regional Vice President.


I don't understand. They have *not* seen fit or they have seen fit to write this letter.

I'm sure this wasn't your intention, but the end result is that a lot of us now have a lot less respect for RPTs.

If what you say is correct, there are hacks in their group and they are not willing to root them out.

Top
#1877815 - 04/11/12 09:46 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I didn't realize that Rod. Thanks for the clarification on that.

Now that I read Russell's post, I remembered a while back that our local chapter had also worked on having an RPT kicked out for various reasons. We did get that person removed too. I'd forgotten all about it. That was quite a number of years ago now and took quite a bit of time going through all of the hoops.

I wouldn't have less respect for RPT's just because of that one. That's like saying, I have less respect for all doctor's because of one crummy one. I don't have less respect for non RPT's just because I find one that does lousy work. That wouldn't be fair to the rest of them. We all work hard to achieve what we achieve in the field of piano technology and build up our own reputations, good or bad.

There are roads to take to have a person removed. It takes time as the RVP will have to deal not only with home office but, with this particular RPT too, getting all sides of the story which again, takes time. Sort of like going to court in a way...

It sounds like Dan from his last post, is on the right one in dealing the the RVP.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#1877859 - 04/11/12 10:40 PM Re: Manufacturer Abandons Dealer over Warranty Issue [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1168
Loc: Qubec, Canada
I do not believe this thread is about professional organizations.

This thread is about a frustrated and helpless technician. With reason.

Many new manufacturers of pianos have not understood the importance of a service department.

A person, preferably knowledgable in piano parts and mechanisms, even better a well paid tech, to answer queries.

The dealer at this point must be very annoyed, with reason.

The customer is ignorant, having been fed a lot of bs.

If I was the manufacturer, I would tell my customer, (the dealer) that I would back him. Just get the piano back, and let somebody else deal with this customer. The manufacturer, if the dealer has been diligent, should back up the dealer.

The customer is not always right.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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