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#1877709 - 04/11/12 06:41 PM Fb9 chord
Tango Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 106
Loc: Albany,New York
Hello all.I looked all over the internet to see what notes make up the chord Fb9.I could not find anything.What notes make up an Fb9 chord?Could you also explain how this chord is formed and arrived at?Thanks.

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#1877714 - 04/11/12 06:50 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2262
Loc: Sydney
Hi Tango
This is a beautiful chord that can be used in many contexts where colour is needed, the b9 providing the colour.

You can use F# A C Eb.
So if you have a Bb major progression C min 7, F7, Bb maj 7
you can use Fb9 instead of the normal F A C Eb.

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#1877723 - 04/11/12 07:02 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: custard apple]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Maybe it is what CA suggests, F7b9. This would commonly be used as a dominant in Bb major or Bb minor.

Voiced F, A, C, Eb, Gb in can also be seen as a slah chord Adim7/F.


Edited by Studio Joe (04/11/12 07:07 PM)
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#1878099 - 04/12/12 09:41 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
jasperkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Safford, AZ
Hmnmm. Could this by some chance be Fb in the key of Cb? Maybe the Fb9 is the enharmonic equivalent of being an E9. Dunno, just thinking out loud.
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#1878130 - 04/12/12 10:32 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: jasperkeys]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
ya think? I'd just play an E9 - IF Fb9 means F-flat 9th


Edited by daviel (04/12/12 10:33 AM)
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#1878144 - 04/12/12 10:58 AM Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Tango
What notes make up an Fb9 chord?Could you also explain how this chord is formed and arrived at?Thanks.

Tango,

Do you see the confusion? In order to answer correctly, we need to know if you are referring to "F major with a flatted ninth" {F (b9)}, or "F-flat major with an added ninth" {Fb (9)}. These are two completely different chords, and would be used in drastically different settings.

What is the context in which you find this? What key are we in? What other chords immediately surround this one in question. More info, please . . .

And, on the subject of consulting "the internet", there are ABSOLUTELY NO F#s in either of these chords. (However, both do contain a Gb.)
Ed

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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1878159 - 04/12/12 11:32 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Tango Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 106
Loc: Albany,New York
Hello all.I apologize for not giving the key and progression of this blues song.This Fb9 chord is taken from the song,"Texas Flood" by Larry Davis and Joseph W. Scott .The song is in the key of Ab.The Fb9 is in the introductory measure #4.The blues progression is Ab,Db,Ab,Fb9,Eb9.

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#1878171 - 04/12/12 11:46 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Fb 9: Fb Ab Cb Ebb Gb

Though the progression you write is correct: Ab, Db, Ab, Fb 9, Eb 9
I would write Ab, Db, Ab, E9, Eb9 as, imo, it's much easier to comprehend the chromatic chord movement.
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#1878203 - 04/12/12 12:46 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: chrisbell]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Fb 9: Fb Ab Cb Ebb Gb
Though the progression you write is correct: Ab, Db, Ab, Fb 9, Eb 9
I would write Ab, Db, Ab, E9, Eb9 as, imo, it's much easier to comprehend the chromatic chord movement.

Here we are again with the issue of "familiar useage" contradicting chord spelling and theory. I would rather "think" E 9th any day of the week, than Fb 9th, but that is because I am far more familiar with 3 or 4 sharps than I am with 8 or 9 flats.

However, once one writes it down, in my opinion, we are taking it out of the realm of just familiar thinking, and placing it in a theoretical perspective. Maybe even more especially when we are coaching someone who is learning this stuff. So, even forgetting for a moment that Tango asked specifically about Fb, the Fb chord progresses just fine chromatically to Eb. We even hear it as a descending motion from a flatted sixth, rather than from a raised fifth.

Ed



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#1878218 - 04/12/12 01:09 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
So he's just sliding into Eb chord from an E chord. No blues player in the history of western civilization ever played an F-flat chord! That's an E-chord. That's a very common blues convention. Blues is an "ear" genre. Go to a local blues jam and call out an "F-flat add the 9th" when the change comes, and watch the ensuing trainwreck. cool


Edited by daviel (04/12/12 01:14 PM)
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#1878247 - 04/12/12 02:15 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: daviel
So he's just sliding into Eb chord from an E chord. . . . That's a very common blues convention. Blues is an "ear" genre. . .

I agree that blues (and jazz) is much more about hearing and feeling than about analyzing or notating. I also agree that chromatically ascending, or descending, ninth chords are found everywhere in popular music and jazz. Even further, I concede that if I were attempting to remember this harmonic structure for playing, I would retain it as E9 – but that is my lazy “common useage”.

However, Mr. Tango did not ask about an E9, so somewhere he is encountering the notation Fb 9

And quite logically, once we are in the Ab major tonality, it is a real theoretical stretch to get to E. While we might use it as an augmented 5th, we do not hear it that way in this context. Our ears dictate the progression as an Andalusian sixth (major chord built on the flatted sixth of the key), sliding as you say, to the dominant ninth.
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#1878250 - 04/12/12 02:21 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: chrisbell]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1183
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Fb 9: Fb Ab Cb Ebb Gb

Though the progression you write is correct: Ab, Db, Ab, Fb 9, Eb 9
I would write Ab, Db, Ab, E9, Eb9 as, imo, it's much easier to comprehend the chromatic chord movement.


Quite the opposite, surely? E9 may be a more familiar shape, and I wouldn't condemn anyone who chose to notate it that way. But in this piece, it's the b6 chord, not the #5. If you can't see this, transpose the tune to C major and see if you'd even dream of writing it as G#9 rather than Ab9! The harmonic movement is much clearer when a b6 LOOKS like a b6.

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#1878258 - 04/12/12 02:42 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Originally Posted By: daviel
So he's just sliding into Eb chord from an E chord. . . . That's a very common blues convention. Blues is an "ear" genre. . .

I agree that blues (and jazz) is much more about hearing and feeling than about analyzing or notating. I also agree that chromatically ascending, or descending, ninth chords are found everywhere in popular music and jazz. Even further, I concede that if I were attempting to remember this harmonic structure for playing, I would retain it as E9 – but that is my lazy “common useage”.

However, Mr. Tango did not ask about an E9, so somewhere he is encountering the notation Fb 9

And quite logically, once we are in the Ab major tonality, it is a real theoretical stretch to get to E. While we might use it as an augmented 5th, we do not hear it that way in this context. Our ears dictate the progression as an Andalusian sixth (major chord built on the flatted sixth of the key), sliding as you say, to the dominant ninth.


All I was trying to say was that in blues it is uncommon/odd to characterize chord changes as one would in a Jazz Studies theory class. Of course if he is in the key of Ab you could call his chord an F-flat chord. No real blues players do that. Esoteric theory discussions are a waste of time in blues circles, I was trying to get across. They're OK on piano forums, though. I'm trying to keep Mr. Tango from looking like a nerd at his next blues jam, and to encourage Mr. Tango to listen to the tunes, not read sheet music in the blues genre. I know you read tangos, but find some blues piano players you like on you-tube - and real players, not white-bread lessons, and copy their licks. Billy Preston, Ray Charles, James Carroll Booker, more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_blues


Edited by daviel (04/12/12 02:50 PM)
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"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
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#1878427 - 04/12/12 07:32 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1183
Loc: London UK
Quote:

All I was trying to say was that in blues it is uncommon/odd to characterize chord changes as one would in a Jazz Studies theory class.


OK, so blues players are sometimes short on musical theory, and take the easy way out when naming chords. But this person has shown an interest, and should be given full information.

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#1878491 - 04/12/12 09:43 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
True, that. I am just not accustomed to academic blues, at least not down here in Texas smile

Here's SRV playing the tune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWLw7nozO_U

Be aware that SRV tuned his guitar down a half step. That may be how you got in to this Ab fricas!


Edited by daviel (04/12/12 09:54 PM)
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1878521 - 04/12/12 10:38 PM Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Tango
What notes make up an Fb9 chord? Could you also explain how this chord is formed and arrived at?

Tango,

Hopefully your eyes have not glazed over too badly from your little theoretical "side discussion". There is still the second part of your question, and this is very similar to the thread you started dealing with differences between Cm7 and Cm9 and Ab7 and Ab 9.

Chords, including triads AND extended chords, can be constructed by adding intervals ABOVE THE ROOT of that chord.
[1] The chord takes its letter name from the root. So, any variety of chord named C ( C7, Cm9, C+7, Cø7, C 13 (#11)) will all be “built” with intervals above the root note C.

[2] The type of chord to be built will be designated by the lower-case letters, numbers, and symbols that follow the chord name. I would be here all night covering which triad forms the base of which type of chord, but the two you seem most interested in at the present are minor and major ninth chords, so I’ll try to make sense of those for now.

[3] Minor ninth chords, that is minor chords with an added ninth, are built upon minor triads. They are constructed with intervals above, and referencing, their root. The intervals are:
a minor third (part of the minor triad)
a perfect fifth (part of the minor triad)
a minor seventh (assumed)
a major ninth
Applying this to your former question about Cm9 (C minor ninth), one spells the chord like this:
C + Eb + G + Bb + D

[4] Major ninth chords, that is major chords with an added ninth, are constructed upon major triads. In the same way, they are built with intervals above, and referencing, their root. The intervals are:
a major third (part of the major triad)
a perfect fifth (part of the major triad)
a minor seventh (assumed)
a major ninth
Applying this to your former question about C9 (C ninth), one spells the chord like this:
C + E + G + Bb + D
Applying the same intervals to your current question about Fb 9 (F flat (ninth)), one spells it like this:
Fb + Ab + Cb + Ebb + Gb
And, at the risk of muddying the waters even further, for those who wish to think of this sound as E9 (E ninth), that would be spelled with the exact same intervals above the root E:
E + G# + B + D + F#

To state the obvious, keys, scales, and intervals are at the very heart of understanding the spelling and proper construction of chords. If you let us know where you are with understanding those rudiments, we may be able to help better.

Enjoy the blues!
Ed
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#1878532 - 04/12/12 10:51 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: daviel
Here's SRV playing the tune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWLw7nozO_U

Be aware that SRV tuned his guitar down a half step. That may be how you got in to this Ab fricas!

Well, the YouTube video is in Gb (or F# if you prefer).
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#1878566 - 04/12/12 11:43 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
The thing is that keyboards (Reese Wynans - B3 and piano) had to play the half step down. So Reese is playing in F#/Gb and SRV's fingers are playing in G while the guitar sounds the half step lower. Good way to learn playing in odd keys - which Reese was very good at. SRV used thick guitar strings and apparently liked the extra slack. I don't really mean it is not important to learn how to write/spell chords. It just sounds odd applied to blues changes.


Edited by daviel (04/12/12 11:46 PM)
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1878626 - 04/13/12 01:38 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Tango
Hello all.I looked all over the internet to see what notes make up the chord Fb9.I could not find anything.What notes make up an Fb9 chord?Could you also explain how this chord is formed and arrived at?Thanks.

I took one look at this post and thought: Oh NO!

My students all wrestle with the problems that jump out like "Jason" from Friday the 13th with this notation.

Any root can form a 9 chord. Fb9 is simply Fb Ab Cb Ebb Gb. End of story.

For a "flat 9" chord, the notation is different, so if we want an F7 with a flat 9 added, as several people have shown, it's easy:

F7b9 F7(b9) F7-9, and even F-9, which I use when I am lazy and want to save space.

The difference between Fb9 (ambiguous) and F-9 is that with the dash used for a m9 (b9), suddenly we know that the chord itself is F, never Fb.

Normally I use F7-9, again because I type it into music and want something that is fast and clean, but to students I would recommend F7b9 as the quickest and most clear notation.

This is only to get the Fb9, truly an Fb7 chord with a 9 added, and a F7b9 or F7-9, in two notational forms that make the two very, very clear and different from each other.

This is just to get two different chords (sounds) out of the way and move to the other problem brought up.


Edited by Gary D. (04/13/12 02:31 AM)
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#1878629 - 04/13/12 01:52 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Next point: how to spell unusual chords.

People try to apply the same notational standards to different styles of music.

Fb9 in "classical music"? It can happen. It does happen.

But something like this is a lot more common:

Fb7-5 (Fb7b5) moving to Eb, and that turns out to be a "French 6th", a pain in the butt name that doesn't really get at what it is. It is spelled in this manner, because of where it is going to:

Fb Ab Bb ***D*** TO
Eb G Bb Eb

The top note, the Ebb, is respelled to "D" because of where it is going next. And suddenly it is pretty clear. Two notes go down 1/2 step, the top goes up 1/2 step, and the Bb is a "common tone", not moving. You can write it in four voices. It could show up in Bach SATB.

To use that same logic in blues is insane. The chords are not MOVING the same way. If you are in Ab and want to slip to an Eb9 chord, just a simple dominant, no one I know is going to to write Fb9 moving to Eb9. Suddenly the same logic above, good voicing leading, all goes up in smoke.

I have to agree with Daviel. Applying traditional theory to parallel 7 chords is just geeky, and everyone I know uses simple, clear spellings for simple, obvious progressions.

I would write, in A:

A, D, A, F9, E9.

But in Ab:

Ab, Db, Ab, ***E9***, Eb9.

Bach is Bach, and blues is blues. Applying the rules for one to the music of the other is just weird...


Edited by Gary D. (04/13/12 02:20 AM)
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#1878666 - 04/13/12 04:42 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1183
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
[4] Major ninth chords, that is major chords with an added ninth, are constructed upon major triads. In the same way, they are built with intervals above, and referencing, their root. The intervals are:
a major third (part of the major triad)
a perfect fifth (part of the major triad)
a minor seventh (assumed)
a major ninth


Your system comes apart here,I'm afraid.

"C9" labels what you refer to as a Major 9th chord. C7 (major chord with a flat 7th added) plus the major 9th.

"Cmaj9" is the label for a Cmaj7 chord (C major triad plus the MAJOR 7th) plus the major 9th.

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#1878851 - 04/13/12 11:12 AM Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Your system comes apart here,I'm afraid.

"C9" labels what you refer to as a Major 9th chord. C7 (major chord with a flat 7th added) plus the major 9th.

"Cmaj9" is the label for a Cmaj7 chord (C major triad plus the MAJOR 7th) plus the major 9th.

Maybe you are searching for reasons to disagree with me? And when you can't find any, you manufacture them?

I have searched my posts quite thoroughly, and do not find the "Cmaj9" naming, with which you take issue. I invite you to point it out if you like.

You and I both know that if the "maj" abbreviation appears immediately after the root name, that refers to the seventh of the chord. Likewise, we both know very well that if the "min" abbreviation appears immediately after the root name, that refers to the third of the chord - to the base triad itself. I am guessing that this level of detail is only going to be confusing to Mr. Tango at his stage of chord understanding. After all, he asked about ONE chord.

As far as "my system" coming apart, first of all it is not "my system", but a rather universal method for building or spelling traditional chords. I prefer it, because it does have the advantage of incorporating quartals, quintals, tone clusters, and even some polytonality and serial rows, without "coming apart".

I have mentioned many times that there are no perfect or
complete, all-encompassing methods for analyzing harmonic structures or movement. This intervals-above-a-common-root system, however, works fine for teaching intermediate harmony and chord construction.

To go one step further, if anything is breaking down or causing confusion among those of us who know this stuff, it is lack of precision in the NAMING of the various flavors of chords, starting with the Fb9. That is why, if there is any chance of ambiguity, I prefer the use of parenthesis -- Fb(9); B9(maj7); Fm7(b5); Ab9(+5).

Anyway, I tried. Where is Tango, by the way?
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#1878975 - 04/13/12 02:28 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Show me a published chart that says Fb9
It's nonsense, imo.

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#1878998 - 04/13/12 03:11 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
This is a straw man:

Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Your system comes apart here,I'm afraid.

"C9" labels what you refer to as a Major 9th chord. C7 (major chord with a flat 7th added) plus the major 9th.

"Cmaj9" is the label for a Cmaj7 chord (C major triad plus the MAJOR 7th) plus the major 9th.

Where is the problem? (Checking...)
Originally Posted By: LoPresti

[4] Major ninth chords, ***that is major chords with an added ninth***, are constructed upon major triads. In the same way, they are built with intervals above, and referencing, their root. The intervals are:
a major third (part of the major triad)
a perfect fifth (part of the major triad)
a minor seventh (assumed)
a major ninth
Applying this to your former question about C9 (C ninth), one spells the chord like this:
C + E + G + Bb + D

The only thing I can see here is that there is a problem with the written out label "major ninth chords". I don't see anything wrong about the rest of what Ed presented.

The "elephant in the room" here is that all intervals "measured" from the root are major, by default, except for the 7, which is minor by default.

For students this concept is very hard. It was for me, before I understood the logic.

I teach as a default:

X9 = X 3 5 7 9. 3 is a minor 7 by definition. So C D G Bb D.

You can do this, obviously, with any root. Fb Ab Cb Ebb Gb. Correct, but messy.

Most people are saying to convert, enharmonically: E G# B D F#.

The question about *maj* is a separate point. It has nothing to do with the OPs question.

I have a different point to make.

Tango was here on April 11th, a bit before 7 PM, my time. Since he has not returned, the thread is ours to do with as we please. smile
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#1879001 - 04/13/12 03:16 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Where is Tango, by the way?

Why should we care? smile

That is not a sarcastic answer. So far as I am concerned any topic started by someone may take on a life of its own. If the OPer returns and says, "Help, what happened to my question?" then we can jump back in and say, "Oops, let's get back to your question and see if we can answer it simply."
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#1879012 - 04/13/12 03:32 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: LoPresti

I have searched my posts quite thoroughly, and do not find the "Cmaj9" naming, with which you take issue. I invite you to point it out if you like.

The problem was your label, "major nine chord". I immediately thought of Cmaj9, which is the notation I would go to by default. I have in my hands at this moment the book "All the Right Changes", by Dick Hyman. I have not looked at this in over a decade, but I immediately found:

EbMa9.

I prefer Eb maj9, with the "maj" written high, but his intent is obvious.
Quote:

You and I both know that if the "maj" abbreviation appears immediately after the root name, that refers to the seventh of the chord. Likewise, we both know very well that if the "min" abbreviation appears immediately after the root name, that refers to the third of the chord - to the base triad itself. I am guessing that this level of detail is only going to be confusing to Mr. Tango at his stage of chord understanding. After all, he asked about ONE chord.

This seems clear to me. smile I would only mention that "m" is just as common as "min", probably more so. I personally prefer "m" for a minor 3rd and "maj" for a major 7th. But that is only my habit.
Quote:

As far as "my system" coming apart, first of all it is not "my system", but a rather universal method for building or spelling traditional chords. I prefer it, because it does have the advantage of incorporating quartals, quintals, tone clusters, and even some polytonality and serial rows, without "coming apart".

I feel the same way. I suppose the real question is what "non-classical" means to people here...
Quote:

To go one step further, if anything is breaking down or causing confusion among those of us who know this stuff, it is lack of precision in the NAMING of the various flavors of chords, starting with the Fb9. That is why, if there is any chance of ambiguity, I prefer the use of parenthesis -- Fb(9); B9(maj7); Fm7(b5); Ab9(+5).

All those are clear to me except this one: B9(maj7).

That causes a brain freeze. By the time I see B9 my hands have already formed for that chord or that harmony, then I have to revise it by adjusting 7 to M7. There I would much prefer Bmaj9. If parentheses. Even for a flat root (like Bb) I would still go with: Bbmaj9.

But the thing that is so cool about the letter notation is that it is extremely flexible. smile
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#1879033 - 04/13/12 04:20 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Non-classical conventions are valuable to a discussion in the non-classical forum. For example, Cmaj9 will have a B natural in the chord. C9 means the 7th is flatted - if it's played. Everything Gary D posted is correct. We haven't even gotten into "swing eights." Miles Davis once said, "Just play it. We'll figure out what to call it later." That pretty much sums it up. Oh, and I eagerly await the published chart requested by Jazz+. wink


Edited by daviel (04/13/12 04:23 PM)
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#1879043 - 04/13/12 04:36 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Online   content
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Nines or 9s are really interesting because they are the same pitches as 2s, and it is not always clear how to label them.

C D E G is REALLY common. I label that as C add2. It's a pretty new thing if Debussy is new, since his music is full of such sounds. wink

C D G I label as: Csus2. C D F G: C sus 4/2 or C 4/2 sus.

But when you have C E G *** D, with the 7 left out, IF I have to be specific:

C add9

The point is to make the labeling fit the music, not make the music fit the labels!!!
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#1879083 - 04/13/12 05:36 PM Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
The "elephant in the room" here is that all intervals "measured" from the root are major, by default, except for the 7, which is minor by default.

Yes, Gary, AND --

Once we venture into blanket rules like this one, the learner is still not out of the complexity woods. To be complete, here we need to address intervals that are usually perfect or prime (4th, 5th, 11th, etc.) So, in addition to your "seventh flat by default", we need to add that all intervals that COULD BE perfect, are perfect by default, unless otherwise altered.

Originally Posted By: Gary D.
The problem was your label, "major nine chord". I immediately thought of Cmaj9, which is the notation I would go to by default.

I am not certain why everyone is quoting this out of context. As plain as day, here is what I wrote:
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
[4] Major ninth chords, that is major chords with an added ninth, are constructed upon major triads. In the same way, they are built with intervals above, and referencing, their root.

For Tango’s sake, I was making the distinction between chords based upon minor triads, the previous paragraph, and those based upon major triads.


===========================

I generally dislike repeating (or re-writing) myself, but I would like to remind everyone on the thread that the (F flat) 9th was brought up as the subject of this thread - I did not invent it, I was simply hoping to explain it.

In reality, this chord that has stirred up so much debate, is nothing more than a sound in the air. Somehow, Tango bumbled onto this Fb9 description, and that description can be decoded. But whether we call it (F flat) ninth, or E ninth, or (D double-sharp) ninth, or Ab half-diminished seventh slash E, or any number of other things, those are all simply descriptors, and as such, are not the sound itself. As long as these descriptors do not violate or contradict basic, tonal theory, then any one is not any more correct than the next.

I would also say, to all those learned individuals who are calling for the diagram or spelling of this chord in some published chart, that if you need a chart to look up chords of this type, you are way out of your depth. .

Ed
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#1879089 - 04/13/12 05:48 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Legal Beagle Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
I would also say, to all those learned individuals who are calling for the diagram or spelling of this chord in some published chart, that if you need a chart to look up chords of this type, you are way out of your depth. .
Ed


I would attempt to diffuse the volatility a bit by pointing out that when Jazz+ said this...

Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Show me a published chart that says Fb9

I believe he was using the common vernacular of jazz musicians (and many others) who refer to printed sheet music, either lead sheets or full scores, as "charts."
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