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#1882899 - 04/20/12 09:33 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: keystring]
Legal Beagle Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
To my (admittedly rudimentary) way of thinking, the answer to this...
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Since at least a fair part of the brain trust has weighed-in on this, kindly indulge me with one further, follow-up question: If the “rootless” dominant is not, in fact, a dominant chord, then why doesn’t everyone (except students) call those things precisely what they are?

Is this...
Originally Posted By: keystring
So I'm also thinking that some people will have come into referring to "rootless dominants" because it reflects their reality.

And to be more specific... how they came to it. If you're playing jazz standards and you come to that chord voicing because you're looking for a hip way to play a ii-V-I, then it's a rootless dominant to you. If you came to it from Ed's point of view, as a chord floating in space that sounds different from the V with the root, then it's something else.
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#1882927 - 04/20/12 10:38 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
To me, saying it is "rootless" refers to a root. The root that is less. So the word means that it really related to the unplayed, silent, root of the chord: In C - c-e-f-a (still Dm7, ii) to f-b-e (still G7, V) to e-a-d (still Cmaj9, I). Those are not floating around, they are a ii,V,I.


Edited by daviel (04/20/12 10:42 AM)
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#1882964 - 04/20/12 12:02 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: keystring]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1207
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: keystring
I was actually addressing a different idea that you expressed, namely that the concept that chords are not fixed isolated entities is the less advanced thing which would *lead to* discovering that there is such a thing as a vii° chord and a V7 chord. I'm thinking that individual chords are pretty much in your face from the start. So in my mind the process would be the reverse.


Chords are "only in your face" if the music follows a fixed set of conventions (and there's nothing wrong with harmonically simple music), or you have no imagination!

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#1882976 - 04/20/12 12:23 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11848
Loc: Canada
What I'm trying to say is that in traditional harmony and how it's taught, you get these "in your face" things. They are not something you move toward learning about later as a second more sophisticated thing. They're actually a starting point, like learning the alphabet and the sound "a" makes in "cat".

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#1883105 - 04/20/12 04:16 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
For me this:

Originally Posted By: Legal Beagle
If you're playing jazz standards and you come to that chord voicing because you're looking for a hip way to play a ii-V-I, then it's a rootless dominant to you.


Leads to this:

Originally Posted By: daviel
To me, saying it is "rootless" refers to a root. The root that is less. So the word means that it really related to the unplayed, silent, root of the chord: In C - c-e-f-a (still Dm7, ii) to f-b-e (still G7, V) to e-a-d (still Cmaj9, I). Those are not floating around, they are a ii,V,I.

Which I would explain this way:

C E F C, Fmaj7 to inversion of same: II concept leads to thinking D bass, played or not.

Fmaj7/D = Dm9

But Daviel's example is specific, concrete and practical. It gives voicing. So you can play his chord with the RH, stick in the bass with the LH, or switch the chord to LH and improvise with RH.

F B E, (G) F B E, G7 add 13, but again the concrete example shows no 5th and stress that the 13 is over the 7. No root is lean, again easy and compact for LH, leaves RH free to improv.

ALONE, E A D, could be an Asus, or Esus7. But in context, (C) E (G) A D, and no chord name is going to give voicing, or the fact that you have to perfect 4ths. You can keep it lean, no root, no 5th, but if you stick in the root, low, the G is going to be there in overtones.

Apparently I think like Daviel, so my teaching reflects my thought-process. II V I is a Big Picture concept and links in my mind every possible way of expressing this movement.


Edited by Gary D. (04/20/12 04:18 PM)
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#1884123 - 04/22/12 07:14 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1207
Loc: London UK
I was handed a piece of music to play including a Fb chord yesterday! Another Music-Hall show, and a very simple little ditty!

But in the interests of honesty, I must reveal that it was a song copy downloaded from one of those on-line stores that let you choose your own transposition. The singer had asked for "one down" from C major and had been given it. Literally.

Bit of a shock on a "quick look through then do the show" gig though!

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#1884329 - 04/22/12 02:05 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Well, good! You had this discussion thread to fall back on - kept you alert for the nonsense these on-line stores send out.
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1884362 - 04/22/12 02:57 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1207
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: daviel
kept you alert for the nonsense these on-line stores send out.


They're a wonderful resource. But ask for Cb major, that's what you get!

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#1884402 - 04/22/12 04:00 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
I was handed a piece of music to play including a Fb chord yesterday! Another Music-Hall show, and a very simple little ditty!

But in the interests of honesty, I must reveal that it was a song copy downloaded from one of those on-line stores that let you choose your own transposition. The singer had asked for "one down" from C major and had been given it. Literally.

Bit of a shock on a "quick look through then do the show" gig though!

And that's not the worst of it. When these machines do transpositions, they keep the same clefs no matter how much higher or lower you go. It produces some WEIRD stuff!!!
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#1884663 - 04/22/12 10:33 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Would have thought "one down" was Bb - one whole step down. If it's a half-step down it's B. That's the word from here! Aaahh singers! Our R&B band plays "Sugar in My Bowl in B. Working the song up we just had the singer sing naturally and comfortably and that's what key she was in. I laugh inside when the singer asks what key a song is in. Aaahhh singers
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1884895 - 04/23/12 09:54 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Legal Beagle Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
Originally Posted By: daviel
Would have thought "one down" was Bb - one whole step down. If it's a half-step down it's B. That's the word from here! Aaahh singers! Our R&B band plays "Sugar in My Bowl in B. Working the song up we just had the singer sing naturally and comfortably and that's what key she was in. I laugh inside when the singer asks what key a song is in. Aaahhh singers

Q: How do you know when there's a singer at your front door?

A: She can't find the key and doesn't know when to come in.

(with apologies to all of the truly wonderful singers out there, just a little humor from my gigging days as a trombonist)
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"Wide awake, I can make my most fantastic dreams come true..."
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#1884903 - 04/23/12 10:03 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1207
Loc: London UK
Quote:
Q: How do you know when there's a singer at your front door?

A: She can't find the key and doesn't know when to come in.

Which is why she's knocking at the window, not the door :-)

Q: How do you know when there's a drummer at your front door?
A: The knocking speeds up.

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#1885072 - 04/23/12 02:36 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Legal Beagle Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Quote:
Q: How do you know when there's a singer at your front door?

A: She can't find the key and doesn't know when to come in.

Which is why she's knocking at the window, not the door :-)

Q: How do you know when there's a drummer at your front door?
A: The knocking speeds up.


That's a good one. Our drummer one was...

Q: What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend?

A: Homeless.
_________________________
"Wide awake, I can make my most fantastic dreams come true..."
- Lorenz Hart

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#1885083 - 04/23/12 03:12 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Legal Beagle]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
<Rim shot>
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#1887488 - 04/27/12 12:41 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Q: How do you know the stage is level?

A: The drummer is drooling out of both sides of his mouth.

On another front, there is the Nashville chart. Here is an example taken from an internet site:

"A number chart using Nashville Number System method for the Bob Segar classic “Old Time Rock and Roll” would look like this:

1 1 4 4
5 5 1 5
1 1 4 4
5 5 1 5 "

Here's the link - best instructional site for this method I have seen.

http://nvsongwriter.hubpages.com/hub/nashvillenumbers

So if you get a call from a Nashville Studio, you won't be paralyzed - at least you won't be paralyzed by the chart. But you don't know what keys you'll have to play in until the singer warms up!


Edited by daviel (04/27/12 12:45 PM)
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1887494 - 04/27/12 12:58 PM Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Only in Nashville! My daughter and her husband lived and worked there for a while. Fortunately, I WAS able to get them out in time . . .

Ed
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#1887534 - 04/27/12 02:05 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
That is one city where a musician has a chance to make a living. If you play a session, you have to know how to read! Plus it's in a Southern state - near and dear to my heart.


Edited by daviel (04/27/12 02:16 PM)
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1887579 - 04/27/12 03:35 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Davie, I played with a band for a while that had all their songs charted in the Nashville number system. You may have heard of them. They were known at the time as 'King Cone and the Wise Guys'.

They later changed their name because outside of Wise County the name didn't make sense.
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#1887636 - 04/27/12 05:34 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: daviel

So if you get a call from a Nashville Studio, you won't be paralyzed - at least you won't be paralyzed by the chart. But you don't know what keys you'll have to play in until the singer warms up!

I love playing with systems. So let me see if I understand:

I saw 4/6 b7. Putting it in C major:

F7/A?

What do we do in minor?

Cm = 1 b3?

Cm7 = 1 b3 b7?

C sus 7 = 1 4 b7?

C maj7 = 1 7

Am I close?

Don't worry about PADS. I will respond and ask more questions!
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#1887673 - 04/27/12 06:42 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
The more complicated stuff is set out at the end of the link I posted. http://nvsongwriter.hubpages.com/hub/nashvillenumbers
Frankly, I never use it, but the few times I have I pretty much add the extras I think fit. I am used to the Bob Seegar type stuff - just a simple guide. Like we had tossed around before, if the chords are all that important style-wise, then write them out. The writer's point is that one can learn a lot of music fast this way, in any key.


Edited by daviel (04/27/12 06:49 PM)
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1887680 - 04/27/12 06:50 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Studio Joe]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Studio Joe: Unfortunately, no. But if Wise County is like Ellis County, not much gets out!
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1887691 - 04/27/12 07:33 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted By: Gary D.

I love playing with systems. So let me see if I understand:

I saw 4/6 b7. Putting it in C major:

F7/A?

What do we do in minor?

Cm = 1 b3?

Cm7 = 1 b3 b7?

C sus 7 = 1 4 b7?

C maj7 = 1 7

Am I close?



Cm = 1m or 1-

Cm7 = 1m7

Csus7 = 1sus7

Cmaj7 = 1maj7, or 1M7

b7 indicates a chord built on the flatted 7th scale degree.

In slash chords the bottom number is for the benefit of the bass player. Inversions are not specified otherwise.


Edited by Studio Joe (04/27/12 07:42 PM)
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#1887737 - 04/27/12 08:51 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Studio Joe]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Studio Joe
Originally Posted By: Gary D.

I love playing with systems. So let me see if I understand:

I saw 4/6 b7. Putting it in C major:

F7/A?

What do we do in minor?

Cm = 1 b3?

Cm7 = 1 b3 b7?

C sus 7 = 1 4 b7?

C maj7 = 1 7

Am I close?



Cm = 1m or 1-

Cm7 = 1m7

Csus7 = 1sus7

Cmaj7 = 1maj7, or 1M7

b7 indicates a chord built on the flatted 7th scale degree.

In slash chords the bottom number is for the benefit of the bass player. Inversions are not specified otherwise.

Thanks!!!

It's very confusing to me only because I started out with RNs, which I don't even really like, then moved to letter chords. But I really like the idea of using arabic numbers for bass notes, if they are needed.

G7/B is what I prefer, and I also recommend just G7 unless giving notes for a bass player.

That turns out to be V6/5 traditionally, and it's linked to figured bass. For me it goes straight to *** when things get chromatic.

It looks like the Nashville system attempts to fix the problem that plagues students the most, the idea that 7, by itself, really means m7 or b7/

Calling a G7 1 b7 looks harder, at first, but can you do this:

Key of C major, Db7-5, b2 b5b7, or b2 b7-b5?

If the system could be used that flexibly, I can see how it might fill a lot of RN holes! wink
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#1887803 - 04/27/12 11:51 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
It's kind of like keeping score in baseball. You chart the game so you can remember everything that happened. You write out in numbers what works for you - you're writing out a numbers chart for yourself that you will use to play the tune.
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1887807 - 04/28/12 12:00 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
That's an interesting way to look at. I see "analysis", working out WHY things are happening, vs. "description", just making note of what is going on.

The other big contrast is preparing something for any key, instantly transposable, vs something that is clearly not going to be transposed.

I would be interested where other people find that moving to other keys becomes impractical. I find very simple things effortless to play in any key, but very complicated things with unigue changes would not work for me. I'd have to work them out in the new key(s), then jot down specific chords.
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#1887924 - 04/28/12 09:58 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Good observation Gary. 'Nashville Number System' is definitely not for anylsis. It is more like a road map. It makes no attempt to tell you why there's a turn in the road, just where to turn and which direction.

As for as transposing a complex song to another key, I too find it difficult. But that's my fault for not knowing all keys equally well by numbers.

Originally Posted By: Gary D.
That's an interesting way to look at. I see "analysis", working out WHY things are happening, vs. "description", just making note of what is going on.

The other big contrast is preparing something for any key, instantly transposable, vs something that is clearly not going to be transposed.

I would be interested where other people find that moving to other keys becomes impractical. I find very simple things effortless to play in any key, but very complicated things with unigue changes would not work for me. I'd have to work them out in the new key(s), then jot down specific chords.
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#1887985 - 04/28/12 12:52 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
What got me playing in different keys was singers. Now I see it as a challenge and refuse to use a transpose button on DP's. I agree that some keys are harder than others for me, but it's just because I don't have the experience in playing them. When I have to, I just try and work through it. No pain; no gain! and I never ask why - except on this forum!! cool


Edited by daviel (04/28/12 12:53 PM)
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1887986 - 04/28/12 12:55 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1207
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: daviel
What got me playing in different keys was singers. Now I see it as a challenge and refuse to use a transpose button on DP's. I agree that some keys are harder than others for me, but it's just because I don't have the experience in playing them. When I have to, I just try and work through it. No pain; no gain!


I've no moral objection to the transpose button. But I can't use it. I don't suffer from absolute perfect pitch, but my brain knows when I'm hitting keys and the wrong notes are coming out! I find myself automatically transposing to compensate, and chaos results.

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#1887991 - 04/28/12 01:05 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
They should ban transpose buttons!
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1888018 - 04/28/12 02:17 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted By: daviel
What got me playing in different keys was singers. Now I see it as a challenge and refuse to use a transpose button on DP's. I agree that some keys are harder than others for me, but it's just because I don't have the experience in playing them. When I have to, I just try and work through it. No pain; no gain!


I've no moral objection to the transpose button. But I can't use it. I don't suffer from absolute perfect pitch, but my brain knows when I'm hitting keys and the wrong notes are coming out! I find myself automatically transposing to compensate, and chaos results.

My pitch sense varies from plus/minus 1/2 step to dead-on, so if a keyboard is transposed, I can't play anything. TOTAL disorientation!
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