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#1877709 - 04/11/12 06:41 PM Fb9 chord
Tango Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 106
Loc: Albany,New York
Hello all.I looked all over the internet to see what notes make up the chord Fb9.I could not find anything.What notes make up an Fb9 chord?Could you also explain how this chord is formed and arrived at?Thanks.

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#1877714 - 04/11/12 06:50 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2307
Loc: Sydney
Hi Tango
This is a beautiful chord that can be used in many contexts where colour is needed, the b9 providing the colour.

You can use F# A C Eb.
So if you have a Bb major progression C min 7, F7, Bb maj 7
you can use Fb9 instead of the normal F A C Eb.

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#1877723 - 04/11/12 07:02 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: custard apple]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Maybe it is what CA suggests, F7b9. This would commonly be used as a dominant in Bb major or Bb minor.

Voiced F, A, C, Eb, Gb in can also be seen as a slah chord Adim7/F.


Edited by Studio Joe (04/11/12 07:07 PM)
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#1878099 - 04/12/12 09:41 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
jasperkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Safford, AZ
Hmnmm. Could this by some chance be Fb in the key of Cb? Maybe the Fb9 is the enharmonic equivalent of being an E9. Dunno, just thinking out loud.
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#1878130 - 04/12/12 10:32 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: jasperkeys]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
ya think? I'd just play an E9 - IF Fb9 means F-flat 9th


Edited by daviel (04/12/12 10:33 AM)
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#1878144 - 04/12/12 10:58 AM Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Tango
What notes make up an Fb9 chord?Could you also explain how this chord is formed and arrived at?Thanks.

Tango,

Do you see the confusion? In order to answer correctly, we need to know if you are referring to "F major with a flatted ninth" {F (b9)}, or "F-flat major with an added ninth" {Fb (9)}. These are two completely different chords, and would be used in drastically different settings.

What is the context in which you find this? What key are we in? What other chords immediately surround this one in question. More info, please . . .

And, on the subject of consulting "the internet", there are ABSOLUTELY NO F#s in either of these chords. (However, both do contain a Gb.)
Ed

_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1878159 - 04/12/12 11:32 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Tango Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 106
Loc: Albany,New York
Hello all.I apologize for not giving the key and progression of this blues song.This Fb9 chord is taken from the song,"Texas Flood" by Larry Davis and Joseph W. Scott .The song is in the key of Ab.The Fb9 is in the introductory measure #4.The blues progression is Ab,Db,Ab,Fb9,Eb9.

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#1878171 - 04/12/12 11:46 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1371
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Fb 9: Fb Ab Cb Ebb Gb

Though the progression you write is correct: Ab, Db, Ab, Fb 9, Eb 9
I would write Ab, Db, Ab, E9, Eb9 as, imo, it's much easier to comprehend the chromatic chord movement.
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#1878203 - 04/12/12 12:46 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: chrisbell]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Fb 9: Fb Ab Cb Ebb Gb
Though the progression you write is correct: Ab, Db, Ab, Fb 9, Eb 9
I would write Ab, Db, Ab, E9, Eb9 as, imo, it's much easier to comprehend the chromatic chord movement.

Here we are again with the issue of "familiar useage" contradicting chord spelling and theory. I would rather "think" E 9th any day of the week, than Fb 9th, but that is because I am far more familiar with 3 or 4 sharps than I am with 8 or 9 flats.

However, once one writes it down, in my opinion, we are taking it out of the realm of just familiar thinking, and placing it in a theoretical perspective. Maybe even more especially when we are coaching someone who is learning this stuff. So, even forgetting for a moment that Tango asked specifically about Fb, the Fb chord progresses just fine chromatically to Eb. We even hear it as a descending motion from a flatted sixth, rather than from a raised fifth.

Ed



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#1878218 - 04/12/12 01:09 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
So he's just sliding into Eb chord from an E chord. No blues player in the history of western civilization ever played an F-flat chord! That's an E-chord. That's a very common blues convention. Blues is an "ear" genre. Go to a local blues jam and call out an "F-flat add the 9th" when the change comes, and watch the ensuing trainwreck. cool


Edited by daviel (04/12/12 01:14 PM)
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1878247 - 04/12/12 02:15 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: daviel
So he's just sliding into Eb chord from an E chord. . . . That's a very common blues convention. Blues is an "ear" genre. . .

I agree that blues (and jazz) is much more about hearing and feeling than about analyzing or notating. I also agree that chromatically ascending, or descending, ninth chords are found everywhere in popular music and jazz. Even further, I concede that if I were attempting to remember this harmonic structure for playing, I would retain it as E9 – but that is my lazy “common useage”.

However, Mr. Tango did not ask about an E9, so somewhere he is encountering the notation Fb 9

And quite logically, once we are in the Ab major tonality, it is a real theoretical stretch to get to E. While we might use it as an augmented 5th, we do not hear it that way in this context. Our ears dictate the progression as an Andalusian sixth (major chord built on the flatted sixth of the key), sliding as you say, to the dominant ninth.
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#1878250 - 04/12/12 02:21 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: chrisbell]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1208
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Fb 9: Fb Ab Cb Ebb Gb

Though the progression you write is correct: Ab, Db, Ab, Fb 9, Eb 9
I would write Ab, Db, Ab, E9, Eb9 as, imo, it's much easier to comprehend the chromatic chord movement.


Quite the opposite, surely? E9 may be a more familiar shape, and I wouldn't condemn anyone who chose to notate it that way. But in this piece, it's the b6 chord, not the #5. If you can't see this, transpose the tune to C major and see if you'd even dream of writing it as G#9 rather than Ab9! The harmonic movement is much clearer when a b6 LOOKS like a b6.

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#1878258 - 04/12/12 02:42 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Originally Posted By: daviel
So he's just sliding into Eb chord from an E chord. . . . That's a very common blues convention. Blues is an "ear" genre. . .

I agree that blues (and jazz) is much more about hearing and feeling than about analyzing or notating. I also agree that chromatically ascending, or descending, ninth chords are found everywhere in popular music and jazz. Even further, I concede that if I were attempting to remember this harmonic structure for playing, I would retain it as E9 – but that is my lazy “common useage”.

However, Mr. Tango did not ask about an E9, so somewhere he is encountering the notation Fb 9

And quite logically, once we are in the Ab major tonality, it is a real theoretical stretch to get to E. While we might use it as an augmented 5th, we do not hear it that way in this context. Our ears dictate the progression as an Andalusian sixth (major chord built on the flatted sixth of the key), sliding as you say, to the dominant ninth.


All I was trying to say was that in blues it is uncommon/odd to characterize chord changes as one would in a Jazz Studies theory class. Of course if he is in the key of Ab you could call his chord an F-flat chord. No real blues players do that. Esoteric theory discussions are a waste of time in blues circles, I was trying to get across. They're OK on piano forums, though. I'm trying to keep Mr. Tango from looking like a nerd at his next blues jam, and to encourage Mr. Tango to listen to the tunes, not read sheet music in the blues genre. I know you read tangos, but find some blues piano players you like on you-tube - and real players, not white-bread lessons, and copy their licks. Billy Preston, Ray Charles, James Carroll Booker, more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_blues


Edited by daviel (04/12/12 02:50 PM)
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
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David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1878427 - 04/12/12 07:32 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1208
Loc: London UK
Quote:

All I was trying to say was that in blues it is uncommon/odd to characterize chord changes as one would in a Jazz Studies theory class.


OK, so blues players are sometimes short on musical theory, and take the easy way out when naming chords. But this person has shown an interest, and should be given full information.

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#1878491 - 04/12/12 09:43 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
True, that. I am just not accustomed to academic blues, at least not down here in Texas smile

Here's SRV playing the tune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWLw7nozO_U

Be aware that SRV tuned his guitar down a half step. That may be how you got in to this Ab fricas!


Edited by daviel (04/12/12 09:54 PM)
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1878521 - 04/12/12 10:38 PM Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Tango
What notes make up an Fb9 chord? Could you also explain how this chord is formed and arrived at?

Tango,

Hopefully your eyes have not glazed over too badly from your little theoretical "side discussion". There is still the second part of your question, and this is very similar to the thread you started dealing with differences between Cm7 and Cm9 and Ab7 and Ab 9.

Chords, including triads AND extended chords, can be constructed by adding intervals ABOVE THE ROOT of that chord.
[1] The chord takes its letter name from the root. So, any variety of chord named C ( C7, Cm9, C+7, Cø7, C 13 (#11)) will all be “built” with intervals above the root note C.

[2] The type of chord to be built will be designated by the lower-case letters, numbers, and symbols that follow the chord name. I would be here all night covering which triad forms the base of which type of chord, but the two you seem most interested in at the present are minor and major ninth chords, so I’ll try to make sense of those for now.

[3] Minor ninth chords, that is minor chords with an added ninth, are built upon minor triads. They are constructed with intervals above, and referencing, their root. The intervals are:
a minor third (part of the minor triad)
a perfect fifth (part of the minor triad)
a minor seventh (assumed)
a major ninth
Applying this to your former question about Cm9 (C minor ninth), one spells the chord like this:
C + Eb + G + Bb + D

[4] Major ninth chords, that is major chords with an added ninth, are constructed upon major triads. In the same way, they are built with intervals above, and referencing, their root. The intervals are:
a major third (part of the major triad)
a perfect fifth (part of the major triad)
a minor seventh (assumed)
a major ninth
Applying this to your former question about C9 (C ninth), one spells the chord like this:
C + E + G + Bb + D
Applying the same intervals to your current question about Fb 9 (F flat (ninth)), one spells it like this:
Fb + Ab + Cb + Ebb + Gb
And, at the risk of muddying the waters even further, for those who wish to think of this sound as E9 (E ninth), that would be spelled with the exact same intervals above the root E:
E + G# + B + D + F#

To state the obvious, keys, scales, and intervals are at the very heart of understanding the spelling and proper construction of chords. If you let us know where you are with understanding those rudiments, we may be able to help better.

Enjoy the blues!
Ed
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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1878532 - 04/12/12 10:51 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: daviel
Here's SRV playing the tune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWLw7nozO_U

Be aware that SRV tuned his guitar down a half step. That may be how you got in to this Ab fricas!

Well, the YouTube video is in Gb (or F# if you prefer).
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1878566 - 04/12/12 11:43 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
The thing is that keyboards (Reese Wynans - B3 and piano) had to play the half step down. So Reese is playing in F#/Gb and SRV's fingers are playing in G while the guitar sounds the half step lower. Good way to learn playing in odd keys - which Reese was very good at. SRV used thick guitar strings and apparently liked the extra slack. I don't really mean it is not important to learn how to write/spell chords. It just sounds odd applied to blues changes.


Edited by daviel (04/12/12 11:46 PM)
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1878626 - 04/13/12 01:38 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Tango
Hello all.I looked all over the internet to see what notes make up the chord Fb9.I could not find anything.What notes make up an Fb9 chord?Could you also explain how this chord is formed and arrived at?Thanks.

I took one look at this post and thought: Oh NO!

My students all wrestle with the problems that jump out like "Jason" from Friday the 13th with this notation.

Any root can form a 9 chord. Fb9 is simply Fb Ab Cb Ebb Gb. End of story.

For a "flat 9" chord, the notation is different, so if we want an F7 with a flat 9 added, as several people have shown, it's easy:

F7b9 F7(b9) F7-9, and even F-9, which I use when I am lazy and want to save space.

The difference between Fb9 (ambiguous) and F-9 is that with the dash used for a m9 (b9), suddenly we know that the chord itself is F, never Fb.

Normally I use F7-9, again because I type it into music and want something that is fast and clean, but to students I would recommend F7b9 as the quickest and most clear notation.

This is only to get the Fb9, truly an Fb7 chord with a 9 added, and a F7b9 or F7-9, in two notational forms that make the two very, very clear and different from each other.

This is just to get two different chords (sounds) out of the way and move to the other problem brought up.


Edited by Gary D. (04/13/12 02:31 AM)
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#1878629 - 04/13/12 01:52 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Next point: how to spell unusual chords.

People try to apply the same notational standards to different styles of music.

Fb9 in "classical music"? It can happen. It does happen.

But something like this is a lot more common:

Fb7-5 (Fb7b5) moving to Eb, and that turns out to be a "French 6th", a pain in the butt name that doesn't really get at what it is. It is spelled in this manner, because of where it is going to:

Fb Ab Bb ***D*** TO
Eb G Bb Eb

The top note, the Ebb, is respelled to "D" because of where it is going next. And suddenly it is pretty clear. Two notes go down 1/2 step, the top goes up 1/2 step, and the Bb is a "common tone", not moving. You can write it in four voices. It could show up in Bach SATB.

To use that same logic in blues is insane. The chords are not MOVING the same way. If you are in Ab and want to slip to an Eb9 chord, just a simple dominant, no one I know is going to to write Fb9 moving to Eb9. Suddenly the same logic above, good voicing leading, all goes up in smoke.

I have to agree with Daviel. Applying traditional theory to parallel 7 chords is just geeky, and everyone I know uses simple, clear spellings for simple, obvious progressions.

I would write, in A:

A, D, A, F9, E9.

But in Ab:

Ab, Db, Ab, ***E9***, Eb9.

Bach is Bach, and blues is blues. Applying the rules for one to the music of the other is just weird...


Edited by Gary D. (04/13/12 02:20 AM)
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#1878666 - 04/13/12 04:42 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1208
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
[4] Major ninth chords, that is major chords with an added ninth, are constructed upon major triads. In the same way, they are built with intervals above, and referencing, their root. The intervals are:
a major third (part of the major triad)
a perfect fifth (part of the major triad)
a minor seventh (assumed)
a major ninth


Your system comes apart here,I'm afraid.

"C9" labels what you refer to as a Major 9th chord. C7 (major chord with a flat 7th added) plus the major 9th.

"Cmaj9" is the label for a Cmaj7 chord (C major triad plus the MAJOR 7th) plus the major 9th.

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#1878851 - 04/13/12 11:12 AM Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Your system comes apart here,I'm afraid.

"C9" labels what you refer to as a Major 9th chord. C7 (major chord with a flat 7th added) plus the major 9th.

"Cmaj9" is the label for a Cmaj7 chord (C major triad plus the MAJOR 7th) plus the major 9th.

Maybe you are searching for reasons to disagree with me? And when you can't find any, you manufacture them?

I have searched my posts quite thoroughly, and do not find the "Cmaj9" naming, with which you take issue. I invite you to point it out if you like.

You and I both know that if the "maj" abbreviation appears immediately after the root name, that refers to the seventh of the chord. Likewise, we both know very well that if the "min" abbreviation appears immediately after the root name, that refers to the third of the chord - to the base triad itself. I am guessing that this level of detail is only going to be confusing to Mr. Tango at his stage of chord understanding. After all, he asked about ONE chord.

As far as "my system" coming apart, first of all it is not "my system", but a rather universal method for building or spelling traditional chords. I prefer it, because it does have the advantage of incorporating quartals, quintals, tone clusters, and even some polytonality and serial rows, without "coming apart".

I have mentioned many times that there are no perfect or
complete, all-encompassing methods for analyzing harmonic structures or movement. This intervals-above-a-common-root system, however, works fine for teaching intermediate harmony and chord construction.

To go one step further, if anything is breaking down or causing confusion among those of us who know this stuff, it is lack of precision in the NAMING of the various flavors of chords, starting with the Fb9. That is why, if there is any chance of ambiguity, I prefer the use of parenthesis -- Fb(9); B9(maj7); Fm7(b5); Ab9(+5).

Anyway, I tried. Where is Tango, by the way?
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#1878975 - 04/13/12 02:28 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Show me a published chart that says Fb9
It's nonsense, imo.

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#1878998 - 04/13/12 03:11 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
This is a straw man:

Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Your system comes apart here,I'm afraid.

"C9" labels what you refer to as a Major 9th chord. C7 (major chord with a flat 7th added) plus the major 9th.

"Cmaj9" is the label for a Cmaj7 chord (C major triad plus the MAJOR 7th) plus the major 9th.

Where is the problem? (Checking...)
Originally Posted By: LoPresti

[4] Major ninth chords, ***that is major chords with an added ninth***, are constructed upon major triads. In the same way, they are built with intervals above, and referencing, their root. The intervals are:
a major third (part of the major triad)
a perfect fifth (part of the major triad)
a minor seventh (assumed)
a major ninth
Applying this to your former question about C9 (C ninth), one spells the chord like this:
C + E + G + Bb + D

The only thing I can see here is that there is a problem with the written out label "major ninth chords". I don't see anything wrong about the rest of what Ed presented.

The "elephant in the room" here is that all intervals "measured" from the root are major, by default, except for the 7, which is minor by default.

For students this concept is very hard. It was for me, before I understood the logic.

I teach as a default:

X9 = X 3 5 7 9. 3 is a minor 7 by definition. So C D G Bb D.

You can do this, obviously, with any root. Fb Ab Cb Ebb Gb. Correct, but messy.

Most people are saying to convert, enharmonically: E G# B D F#.

The question about *maj* is a separate point. It has nothing to do with the OPs question.

I have a different point to make.

Tango was here on April 11th, a bit before 7 PM, my time. Since he has not returned, the thread is ours to do with as we please. smile
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#1879001 - 04/13/12 03:16 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Where is Tango, by the way?

Why should we care? smile

That is not a sarcastic answer. So far as I am concerned any topic started by someone may take on a life of its own. If the OPer returns and says, "Help, what happened to my question?" then we can jump back in and say, "Oops, let's get back to your question and see if we can answer it simply."
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#1879012 - 04/13/12 03:32 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: LoPresti

I have searched my posts quite thoroughly, and do not find the "Cmaj9" naming, with which you take issue. I invite you to point it out if you like.

The problem was your label, "major nine chord". I immediately thought of Cmaj9, which is the notation I would go to by default. I have in my hands at this moment the book "All the Right Changes", by Dick Hyman. I have not looked at this in over a decade, but I immediately found:

EbMa9.

I prefer Eb maj9, with the "maj" written high, but his intent is obvious.
Quote:

You and I both know that if the "maj" abbreviation appears immediately after the root name, that refers to the seventh of the chord. Likewise, we both know very well that if the "min" abbreviation appears immediately after the root name, that refers to the third of the chord - to the base triad itself. I am guessing that this level of detail is only going to be confusing to Mr. Tango at his stage of chord understanding. After all, he asked about ONE chord.

This seems clear to me. smile I would only mention that "m" is just as common as "min", probably more so. I personally prefer "m" for a minor 3rd and "maj" for a major 7th. But that is only my habit.
Quote:

As far as "my system" coming apart, first of all it is not "my system", but a rather universal method for building or spelling traditional chords. I prefer it, because it does have the advantage of incorporating quartals, quintals, tone clusters, and even some polytonality and serial rows, without "coming apart".

I feel the same way. I suppose the real question is what "non-classical" means to people here...
Quote:

To go one step further, if anything is breaking down or causing confusion among those of us who know this stuff, it is lack of precision in the NAMING of the various flavors of chords, starting with the Fb9. That is why, if there is any chance of ambiguity, I prefer the use of parenthesis -- Fb(9); B9(maj7); Fm7(b5); Ab9(+5).

All those are clear to me except this one: B9(maj7).

That causes a brain freeze. By the time I see B9 my hands have already formed for that chord or that harmony, then I have to revise it by adjusting 7 to M7. There I would much prefer Bmaj9. If parentheses. Even for a flat root (like Bb) I would still go with: Bbmaj9.

But the thing that is so cool about the letter notation is that it is extremely flexible. smile
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#1879033 - 04/13/12 04:20 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Non-classical conventions are valuable to a discussion in the non-classical forum. For example, Cmaj9 will have a B natural in the chord. C9 means the 7th is flatted - if it's played. Everything Gary D posted is correct. We haven't even gotten into "swing eights." Miles Davis once said, "Just play it. We'll figure out what to call it later." That pretty much sums it up. Oh, and I eagerly await the published chart requested by Jazz+. wink


Edited by daviel (04/13/12 04:23 PM)
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#1879043 - 04/13/12 04:36 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
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Nines or 9s are really interesting because they are the same pitches as 2s, and it is not always clear how to label them.

C D E G is REALLY common. I label that as C add2. It's a pretty new thing if Debussy is new, since his music is full of such sounds. wink

C D G I label as: Csus2. C D F G: C sus 4/2 or C 4/2 sus.

But when you have C E G *** D, with the 7 left out, IF I have to be specific:

C add9

The point is to make the labeling fit the music, not make the music fit the labels!!!
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#1879083 - 04/13/12 05:36 PM Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
LoPresti Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.
The "elephant in the room" here is that all intervals "measured" from the root are major, by default, except for the 7, which is minor by default.

Yes, Gary, AND --

Once we venture into blanket rules like this one, the learner is still not out of the complexity woods. To be complete, here we need to address intervals that are usually perfect or prime (4th, 5th, 11th, etc.) So, in addition to your "seventh flat by default", we need to add that all intervals that COULD BE perfect, are perfect by default, unless otherwise altered.

Originally Posted By: Gary D.
The problem was your label, "major nine chord". I immediately thought of Cmaj9, which is the notation I would go to by default.

I am not certain why everyone is quoting this out of context. As plain as day, here is what I wrote:
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
[4] Major ninth chords, that is major chords with an added ninth, are constructed upon major triads. In the same way, they are built with intervals above, and referencing, their root.

For Tango’s sake, I was making the distinction between chords based upon minor triads, the previous paragraph, and those based upon major triads.


===========================

I generally dislike repeating (or re-writing) myself, but I would like to remind everyone on the thread that the (F flat) 9th was brought up as the subject of this thread - I did not invent it, I was simply hoping to explain it.

In reality, this chord that has stirred up so much debate, is nothing more than a sound in the air. Somehow, Tango bumbled onto this Fb9 description, and that description can be decoded. But whether we call it (F flat) ninth, or E ninth, or (D double-sharp) ninth, or Ab half-diminished seventh slash E, or any number of other things, those are all simply descriptors, and as such, are not the sound itself. As long as these descriptors do not violate or contradict basic, tonal theory, then any one is not any more correct than the next.

I would also say, to all those learned individuals who are calling for the diagram or spelling of this chord in some published chart, that if you need a chart to look up chords of this type, you are way out of your depth. .

Ed
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#1879089 - 04/13/12 05:48 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Legal Beagle Offline
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti
I would also say, to all those learned individuals who are calling for the diagram or spelling of this chord in some published chart, that if you need a chart to look up chords of this type, you are way out of your depth. .
Ed


I would attempt to diffuse the volatility a bit by pointing out that when Jazz+ said this...

Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Show me a published chart that says Fb9

I believe he was using the common vernacular of jazz musicians (and many others) who refer to printed sheet music, either lead sheets or full scores, as "charts."
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#1879093 - 04/13/12 05:52 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Ed, what caused the flap was treating the chord explanation like we were over in the classical pianists' forum. We aren't; we're in the NON-classical forum. Mr Tango needed a generally-accepted-in-the- blues-genre explanation so that he is not hooted off the bandstand when he calls out "F-flat!" at his next blues jam.

A quote from Ed's post above: "As long as these descriptors do not violate or contradict basic, tonal theory, then any one is not any more correct than the next. " to which the modifier is or should be: "unless you are trying to communicate with blues players."

I'm still waiting for the answer to Jazz+'s request for a chart with an F-flat chord in it.

Not trying to start anything, just trying to add some common sense. smile
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#1879148 - 04/13/12 07:00 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti

Once we venture into blanket rules like this one, the learner is still not out of the complexity woods. To be complete, here we need to address intervals that are usually perfect or prime (4th, 5th, 11th, etc.) So, in addition to your "seventh flat by default", we need to add that all intervals that COULD BE perfect, are perfect by default, unless otherwise altered.

OOPS!!! That was really dumb of me. Yes, everything but the 7th is major or PERFECT, by default. 4 and 5 is perfect, so 11 is too.
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
[4] I am not certain why everyone is quoting this out of context. As plain as day, here is what I wrote:

Major ninth chords, that is major chords with an added ninth, are constructed upon major triads. In the same way, they are built with intervals above, and referencing, their root.

Yes, but your "plain as day" explanation started out with "major ninth chords". For the same reason I just acknowledged, above, that I left out something critical, so did you. You are clearly DEFINING the concept of adding extra notes to a major chord. But I am telling you for a fact that the moment I hear "major nine chord", I immediately think of: Xmaj9. It is visceral. So I have to read past your label, then get to the definition. I am very careful in my teaching to state, clearly, that either a major or minor chord may have any number of additional notes or "color tones" added. I would always say "major chords with an added ninth". I am not nitpicking. In my world any inconsistency in how I explain things to students will cause a train-wreck. If I start off with any phrase that is non-standard, then FOLLOW it with another phrase that makes my first usage clear, I see glazed-over eyes. smile

Now, having said that, I was not the person who nitpicked your choice of words. That was "The Exalted One". Did he really misunderstand you? Or was he just posting to score "gotcha-points"?

Most likely you will not get an answer. I have never gotten one from him.
Quote:

I generally dislike repeating (or re-writing) myself, but I would like to remind everyone on the thread that the (F flat) 9th was brought up as the subject of this thread - I did not invent it, I was simply hoping to explain it.

And you ran into the chasm between "classical musicians" and "non-classical musicians". I live in both worlds, so what you were writing about was crystal clear to me.
Quote:

I would also say, to all those learned individuals who are calling for the diagram or spelling of this chord in some published chart, that if you need a chart to look up chords of this type, you are way out of your depth.

I think here "chart" means "jazz chart".

http://www.opus28.co.uk/decipheringchords.pdf


Edited by Gary D. (04/13/12 07:25 PM)
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#1879151 - 04/13/12 07:05 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: daviel
I'm still waiting for the answer to Jazz+'s request for a chart with an F-flat chord in it.

Not trying to start anything, just trying to add some common sense. smile

I think the chances of finding Fb9 in a pop chart is zero, and finding one in any jazz chart is somewhere between extremely unlikely and zero also. laugh
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#1879168 - 04/13/12 07:47 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Quote:
Now, having said that, I was not the person who nitpicked your choice of words. That was "The Exalted One". Did he really misunderstand you? Or was he just posting to score "gotcha-points"?

Most likely you will not get an answer. I have never gotten one from him.


Of course you can have an answer!

I don't think I misunderstood what was meant. I just pointed out that it was in error.

There is a chord, written as "Cmaj9" and spoken of as "C major 9" which consists of the major triad, major 7th and major 9th.

Using "C major 9" to refer to a quite different chord, with a minor 7th, is therefore incorrect. Quite straightforward. No points to be scored. But let's get these things right - students may be listening!

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#1879261 - 04/13/12 11:22 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
LoPresti Offline
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Originally Posted By: Legal Beagle
I would attempt to diffuse the volatility a bit by pointing out that when Jazz+ said this...

Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Show me a published chart that says Fb9

I believe he was using the common vernacular of jazz musicians (and many others) who refer to printed sheet music, either lead sheets or full scores, as "charts."


Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I think here "chart" means "jazz chart".

Well, I am usually critical of those who simply ASSume they know what others intend, so I need to have a big bite of “humble pie” here! In retrospect, of course that is the type of “chart” to which our gentlemen are referring, and I should have taken that into consideration. My mistake.

---------------------
So, if I were to locate a chart (NOT a chord spelling chart) that contained a Cb9, would that be close enough (key-wise, only a single flat away from Fb) to satisfy your challenge?

Ed
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#1879275 - 04/13/12 11:52 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti

So, if I were to locate a chart (NOT a chord spelling chart) that contained a Cb9, would that be close enough (key-wise, only a single flat away from Fb) to satisfy your challenge?

Ed

I don't "have a dog in this fight". smile

I don't think you will find something like Cb7 in blues, but I think you will in jazz charts. I would be more surprised to find Fb7 (or any extension) or something like A#7.

But in Bach, although there are no chords in it, the C# Major Prelude of the WTC, book I, wanders towards the sound of C7 going to Fm. I mean it is very clear that for a moment he is heading to Fm and setting it up with a dominant 7. The notation for chords would be B#7 to E#m if you don't switch enharmonically, mentally, to flats.

There is the notation of music, and then there is the sound of it. Sometimes the two clash horribly. Even if someone notates Fb9, in ANY kind of music, I am sure I am thinking, in my mind, E9. smile
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#1879294 - 04/14/12 12:23 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
LoPresti Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I don't think you will find something like Cb7 in blues, but I think you will in jazz charts. I would be more surprised to find Fb7 (or any extension) or something like A#7.


Well, if you are referring to Muddy Watters-style blues, I'll bet you are right. Much of that genre depended on use of the open strings on the guitar, laying well in E, A, D, and G.

I am hoping that daviel and Jazz+ bite on my Cb9 offer. What do you say, guys - close enough, or do I have to start exploring Mingus' more esoteric works?
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#1879328 - 04/14/12 01:41 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I don't think you will find something like Cb7 in blues, but I think you will in jazz charts. I would be more surprised to find Fb7 (or any extension) or something like A#7.


Well, if you are referring to Muddy Watters-style blues, I'll bet you are right. Much of that genre depended on use of the open strings on the guitar, laying well in E, A, D, and G.

I am hoping that daviel and Jazz+ bite on my Cb9 offer. What do you say, guys - close enough, or do I have to start exploring Mingus' more esoteric works?

Before anyone else answers, blues covers a lot of territory. smile

I already found a Cb9 chord in a standard. It took me perhaps two minutes to find it. smile
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#1879332 - 04/14/12 02:01 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
R0B Offline
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Here is a quote from member Tango, from Sept 2010

"Hello all.I am learning the song "The Girl From Ipanema".It was written by Antonio Carlos Jobim.It is in a Fake book.I want to play it using chords in the right hand and the melody in the right hand.There is a Cb9 cord in the L.H."
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#1879342 - 04/14/12 02:23 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Gary D. Offline
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Bingo! Ipanema is most often played in F. The bridge moves to Gb, so the Cb9 chord is the IV chord. Then it moves to parallel minor, so F#m9, but then goes to D7 or D9, etc.

Not blues, but a very famous standard. wink
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#1879480 - 04/14/12 11:03 AM Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
LoPresti Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Before anyone else answers, blues covers a lot of territory . . . . . I already found a Cb9 chord in a standard. It took me perhaps two minutes to find it.

"Blues" does cover a very broad spectrum, and that is why I tried to narrow the field to the 12-bar, sing-the-same-4 measure phrase-three-times style.

I wasn't going to devote any time to researching the Cb(7)question - examples are plentiful, depending upon the sophistication of the composer (or arranger), and his "chart".

In fairness, however, I am having some difficulty with the Fb(9). I had in mind Good Bye, Pork Pie Hat, but can not locate anything resembling an authoritative copy of the composer's sketch or score. Copies that do appear have been transposed as far as I can tell.

I was really hoping one of those other bold challengers would step up here, maybe with a nice, substantial wager, against finding the Cb(9) in a blues or jazz chart. Actually, NOW I AM the one still waiting . . .



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#1879484 - 04/14/12 11:05 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: R0B]
LoPresti Offline
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Originally Posted By: R0B
Here is a quote from member Tango, from Sept 2010

"Hello all.I am learning the song "The Girl From Ipanema".It was written by Antonio Carlos Jobim.It is in a Fake book.I want to play it using chords in the right hand and the melody in the right hand.There is a Cb9 cord in the L.H."

Very effecient! That will leave his left hand free to play the maracas or guiro!
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#1879508 - 04/14/12 11:58 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti
... bold challengers .....

I didn't read any challenges or see challengers. I saw a basic point being made that different styles of music / music playing will veer toward different conventions which are the most suitable. Music is practical, except when in academic circles. It seems very reasonable that written "classical" music might use Fb(anything) for sound reason, but if people are playing by ear and improvising, shouting out "Fb" would be less efficient.

I dunno. I've always found forums to be a fantastic place for people to put their heads together, share knowledge, and sometimes come up with new ideas that emerge out of differences. I've also found the most frustrating part of forums the fact that such discussions can turn into competitions of proving others wrong on some secondary point meant to illustrate a main idea, and then the idea gets lost. Unless I'm wrong, that is what risks happening here.

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#1879519 - 04/14/12 12:34 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti
So, if I were to locate a chart (NOT a chord spelling chart) that contained a Cb9, would that be close enough (key-wise, only a single flat away from Fb) to satisfy your challenge?


I think you'll find Cb chords to be quite a common animal. You might have more trouble locating an Fb, but I'm reasonably confident you COULD find one.

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#1879528 - 04/14/12 12:48 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: keystring]
LoPresti Offline
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Hi KeyString,

Here are those challengers you missed:

Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Show me a published chart that says Fb9
It's nonsense, imo.


Originally Posted By: daviel
Non-classical conventions are valuable to a discussion in the non-classical forum. . . . . Oh, and I eagerly await the published chart requested by Jazz+. wink


Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I think the chances of finding Fb9 in a pop chart is zero, and finding one in any jazz chart is somewhere between extremely unlikely and zero also.


I attempt to negotiate, so I do not need to dig too deeply - I hate research!
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
So, if I were to locate a chart (NOT a chord spelling chart) that contained a Cb9, would that be close enough (key-wise, only a single flat away from Fb) to satisfy your challenge?


Gary rises to the occasion, and in a couple of minutes locates an example, proving how trivial it is:
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I already found a Cb9 chord in a standard. It took me perhaps two minutes to find it. smile


A few minutes later, Rob comes up with a reference from this very Forum.
Originally Posted By: R0B
Here is a quote from member Tango, from Sept 2010 (::)
"Hello all.I am learning the song "The Girl From Ipanema".It was written by Antonio Carlos Jobim.It is in a Fake book.I want to play it using chords in the right hand and the melody in the right hand.There is a Cb9 cord in the L.H."


And, alas, another opportunity to win a couple of wagers has fallen by the wayside - I the sad victim of too many people knowing too much information.

Let us hope that Tango eventually does learn to construct those troublesome ninth chords. Maybe if he were to stick with his own thread a little longer . . . . ?

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#1879533 - 04/14/12 12:57 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti

Let us hope that Tango eventually does learn to construct those troublesome ninth chords. Maybe if he were to stick with his own thread a little longer . . . . ?

If Tango doesn't want to Tango with the rest of us, that is his (or her) loss. As I said before, someone sets things in motion. If that person disappears and we have fun with the topic, not loss for US!
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#1879538 - 04/14/12 01:15 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
keystring Offline
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Ed, I follow the progression in the discussion of these two chords: Fb9 and Cb9 that you have listed. I was following that level of it all along. But my thinking was that it's not about these two chords: that the real point was that there are two worlds requiring two views, and that the "challenges" were originally simply a means of illustrating this. Of course I may be wrong, and it may actually have been a contest. It's not the first time that I've been wrong.

Meanwhile you have a valid point about hit and run questions. Where is the asker?

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#1879579 - 04/14/12 02:09 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: keystring]
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Meanwhile you have a valid point about hit and run questions. Where is the asker?


He got a adequate answer early in the thread. Perhaps he isn't interested in whether it SHOULD be called Fb9.

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#1879584 - 04/14/12 02:27 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Gary D. Offline
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I just want to point out that I meant to make no challenges!
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I think the chances of finding Fb9 in a pop chart is zero, and finding one in any jazz chart is somewhere between extremely unlikely and zero also.

I was simply sharing my experience, based on my memory. And since my memory is very faulty, with such things as an Fb chord I go on experience only, then I check. I was going on the assumption that in general more practical people try to stay away from chords that would not be normal triads in a standard key.

Normally the key of Cb major is avoided in favor of B major. Since Fb is the IV of Cb, it is going to be rare in something that does not modulate or have a lot of chromatic movement. As a I chord, same thing. Fb is a rather exotic key, even for a short modulation. And as a V chord, it would be V or V7 of the nasty key of Bbb - NINE flats. smile
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#1879602 - 04/14/12 02:58 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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I have enjoyed this thread - it has legs. It is a good illustration that what you call a chord depends on what "school" you're in at the time.
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#1879619 - 04/14/12 03:27 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I was going on the assumption that in general more practical people try to stay away from chords that would not be normal triads in a standard key.

Normally the key of Cb major is avoided in favor of B major. Since Fb is the IV of Cb, it is going to be rare in something that does not modulate or have a lot of chromatic movement. As a I chord, same thing. Fb is a rather exotic key, even for a short modulation. And as a V chord, it would be V or V7 of the nasty key of Bbb - NINE flats. smile


And, of course, just as the chord on the b6 - Ab - is a common chord in the key of C major, Fb is the equivalent in Ab major - a perfectly "standard" key. The only question is whether to "misspell" it in the interests of convenience.

I agree, Fb would be an unusual key to modulate TO. But using the chord doesn't imply a modulation!

Cb is indeed more common as a chord than as a key. But I've known it happen!

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#1879728 - 04/14/12 08:12 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: daviel
I have enjoyed this thread - it has legs. It is a good illustration that what you call a chord depends on what "school" you're in at the time.

I have enjoyed it too. As I have said elsewhere, I have one foot one one world "traditional/classical" but the other in arranging, and there are some suprising overlaps from one world to the other. smile
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#1879733 - 04/14/12 08:27 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat

And, of course, just as the chord on the b6 - Ab - is a common chord in the key of C major, Fb is the equivalent in Ab major - a perfectly "standard" key. The only question is whether to "misspell" it in the interests of convenience.

This point was precisely what I was thinking of. Moving into the "classical" area for a moment, a German 6th chord in your key of Ab is a deliberately misspelled E7 chord, spelled Fb Ab Cb ***D*** and in Bach would move to Eb Ab C Eb, Ab/Eb, a I 6/4 chord, then it would resolve. We would have to find it in the WTC though, because Ab major sounded horrendous in mean tone or anything close to it.
Quote:

I agree, Fb would be an unusual key to modulate TO. But using the chord doesn't imply a modulation!

Just exactly what a modulation is gets tricky, because it's not only about where we choose to go but also how long we plan to stay there. For instance, no matter what key we are in (key signature), a V7 to I movement in any other key COULD signal a temporay key change that will last for 1 second or several minutes.

Going back to the Ipanema example, if someone decided to play it in Bb instead of F, not at all an unusal key, then the bridge will start Cbmaj7 to Fb9 then Bm9 to G7 or so. You could switch to Bmaj7 to E9, and I would, but the other shows a movement to b2 (new tone center) rather than #1.

As for pieces written in Cb major, starting and ending in that key, I can't think of a single example, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I can't imagine a "symphony in Cb major", and I can't think of any pop tune in that key. But I have seen standards in Gb and Db. smile
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#1879757 - 04/14/12 09:25 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: daviel
I have enjoyed this thread - it has legs. It is a good illustration that what you call a chord depends on what "school" you're in at the time.

I wanted to bring that part out, especially for those of us who are students. Originally I intended to lurk. This was almost a subtheme that popped up for a short time and then lowered its head again but it seemed extremely important. My own schooling went more along the "classical" line and I'm far from done with it but at some point I started encountering this "other" world. What was being said here made a lot of sense to me. Namely that people playing by ear and manipulating music in a particular way are going to need some different conventions here and there. Meanwhile sound is sound: "A rose by any other name" and all that.

My thought is that if a student is only used to one OR the other, then this could get confusing in the sense of trying to decide which one is right. So the fact that there is more than one way of seeing things, each suitable in a particular context, is not a small thing.

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#1879884 - 04/15/12 05:26 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: keystring]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
My thought is that if a student is only used to one OR the other, then this could get confusing in the sense of trying to decide which one is right. So the fact that there is more than one way of seeing things, each suitable in a particular context, is not a small thing.


A classicist might want the chord under discussion to be named as some flavour of Augmented 6th (a description that always bemused me until I discovered the more functional description as the b5 substitution for a secondary dominant.) But surely the point is that if I (wearing my commercial music hat) want to refer to a "German 6th" I must get it right, not confused with an Italian or French 6th. Likewise, if (wearing my classical robes) I should stray into chord symbol territory, I must not re-define "Cmaj9" as having other than the accepted meaning.

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#1879971 - 04/15/12 11:31 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Exactly! I think from a musicianship standpoint, a student (that would be me) is well served by being aware of these differences, and when and where to use them. thumb
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#1880117 - 04/15/12 06:01 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat

A classicist might want the chord under discussion to be named as some flavour of Augmented 6th (a description that always bemused me until I discovered the more functional description as the b5 substitution for a secondary dominant.) But surely the point is that if I (wearing my commercial music hat) want to refer to a "German 6th" I must get it right, not confused with an Italian or French 6th. Likewise, if (wearing my classical robes) I should stray into chord symbol territory, I must not re-define "Cmaj9" as having other than the accepted meaning.

0:38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6K_IuBsRM4

Ab7 to G. Key of C minor. Italian 6th to V to i.

Technically an "Italian 6th" because there is no 5th in the Ab7 chord.

But the Ab7 chord, going to G, doesn't have to be going to V. It can just as easily go to I, so then it would have to be some kind of "bII7" chord, and it's outside of traditional RNs. And it doesn't matter if it is altered by flatting the 5, Ab7-5, Ab B Db F#, to G (I).

This kind of analysis drives me NUTS. So I absolutely hate the terms "German 6th", "French 6th", "Italian 6th". I feel like I have to explain them to students to protect them from theory geeks who care more about what things are called than where they go!

What I prefer: EXPANDING fake dominant. You have something that sounds like a dominant 7 chord, or one with an altered tone, then it just opens up. It's typically the outside that does that, and the spelling is just the most convenient. Db7, traditionally, is most likely to go to Gb. Take the same chord, open it up so that the root goes DOWN and the 7 goes UP and you have something that works in any kind of music. Db F Ab Cb to C ** ** C. It doesn't matter if it is C F A C, C F Ab C, C E G C or something more exotic.

Then respell to Db F Ab B because it is clearer notation. smile


Edited by Gary D. (04/15/12 06:03 PM)
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#1880124 - 04/15/12 06:17 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Better still, simply analyse the tensions within the chord, and where they might resolve to. All harmony is counterpoint. Or the othrt way around. Or something!

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#1880133 - 04/15/12 06:27 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Gary D. Offline
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That's how I see it too. For me it's all about:

1) Where do we start.
2) Where are we going, and how do we get there?
3) Where are we now, and where do we want to go next?

To me any chord has no meaning by itself. It's all about the movement, context. smile
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#1880220 - 04/15/12 09:09 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Tension in chords - chord substitutions - resolution - voice leading w/ chords.
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#1880694 - 04/16/12 05:23 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: daviel
Tension in chords - chord substitutions - resolution - voice leading w/ chords.

I "lost the thread" yesterday, not here but in life - family, all that.

I have mostly steered clear of this forum because of the name: "non classical". But that may have been a mistake.

First of all, the word "classical" has never meant sense to me. What is it? smile

I really enjoyed this discussion. One of the things that has been going through my mind is how important the fully diminished chord is. There are only three of them (not counting enharmonic spellings), and just adjusting one or two notes in the diminshed chords slides to all sorts of interesting places. I see this as sort of the "grease" in modulation, and to me it is so powerful that it playes a central role in everything.

I thought about talking about that a bit here, because I think the "non-classica" group has a much more adnvanced understanding of chord movement and all sorts of cool scales than the so-called "classical" group. smile
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#1880708 - 04/16/12 05:37 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I thought about talking about that a bit here, because I think the "non-classica" group has a much more adnvanced understanding of chord movement and all sorts of cool scales than the so-called "classical" group. smile


Oh, the "non-classical" bunch can get stuck on a rather mindless "chord=scale" system, and sometimes want to call every change of chord a "modulation". Plenty to be shared by both camps!

The point of the diminished seventh chord is that it contains tritones. Several of them. It can act as a dominant minor 9th (root omitted) chord in 4 keys.

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#1880752 - 04/16/12 06:38 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
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I'd just like to express gratitude and appreciation to all the participants in this thread. I've recently crossed 'worlds' with some of you before quite recently and here's another instance.

Regardless of Tango's presence or absence I've both enjoyed the discussion and profited from the results as a passive bystander.
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#1880767 - 04/16/12 07:24 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I thought about talking about that a bit here, because I think the "non-classica" group has a much more adnvanced understanding of chord movement and all sorts of cool scales than the so-called "classical" group. smile


Oh, the "non-classical" bunch can get stuck on a rather mindless "chord=scale" system, and sometimes want to call every change of chord a "modulation". Plenty to be shared by both camps!

The point of the diminished seventh chord is that it contains tritones. Several of them. It can act as a dominant minor 9th (root omitted) chord in 4 keys.


This was exactly what I was getting at! I teach something I call "slithering", and it means that any chord can go to any other chord, but if you can make a way to happen all with 1/2 steps and whole steps, either making some notes (voices) go up and other down, it always sounds great. Or combine that with the idea of keeping some notes as "common tones" while others move up and down.

That's why, for instance, something like Db7-5 going to C works so well (or the same idea in any key). Db slips down to C, F moves down to E, G doesn't move, and B moves up to C. That's a great sound in jazz, especially when the idea is dressed up with color tones, but it goes right back to Bach, Mozart, etc.

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I did not fully understand such simple movements until I was forced to gig, which at first I hated. It was just for money. But I was surrounded by friends, all chiefly jazz players, and it took awhile before I:

1) Realized how much I did NOT know.
2) Started to fully realize the richness of what could be done, starting with "stock" chords but listening to what really fine arrangers did with them.

(This happened about four decades ago. It changed my view of "clasical" music forever.)


Edited by Gary D. (04/16/12 07:25 PM)
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#1880774 - 04/16/12 07:40 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.
That's why, for instance, something like Db7-5 going to C works so well (or the same idea in any key). Db slips down to C, F moves down to E, G doesn't move, and B moves up to C. That's a great sound in jazz, especially when the idea is dressed up with color tones, but it goes right back to Bach, Mozart, etc.


What gives Db7b5 its dominant function in relation to C is mainly the F - Cb tritone which (read enharmonically as F - B) are tne tension notes in a G7 chord. The "slither" from Db to C is an added bonus, but nowhere near as harmonically important.

Now, Ab9 > G9 *is* more of a "slither". There's no rising leading note or descending 4th. Just a pure slither, with all the notes moving in the same direction. Analuse it as some sort of b5 substitution for the dominant of G if you wish. I'll settle for "slither" :-)

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#1880883 - 04/17/12 12:36 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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I like "slide". The beauty of those kind of changes is they almost play themselves the way one can "slither into the resolution.
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#1880913 - 04/17/12 02:56 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: daviel
I like "slide". The beauty of those kind of changes is they almost play themselves the way one can "slither into the resolution.

To me any kind of chromaticism is not only what attracts me the most but is what initially pulled me into music.

The first music I aim for is not the typical Baroque and Classical teaching pieces that are in method books and many collections supposedly "graded" for beginning and intermediate students. I start of with things like Alloutte and other simple tunes that stick mostly to limited positions and are based on I, IV and V chords. I don't think complete beginners can handle things that are more challenging. I know I could not, when I first started.

But I jump really fast, and I do it early. I like to go over a rather famous C minor Prelude by Bach, one of the "little preludes", because it is full of (among other things) diminished chords that come down chromatically for almost a page. I jump right into minor key signatures by introducing things with all accidentals to show what the key is doing (in C minor showing all Bbs, Ebs and Abs), then following with a second version with the key signature, with clues written outside the staves, then a third version without the clues.

Chopin's E minor prelude is like a study in chromatic movement. The first half of the piece keeps playing a droning melody - C B----C B---- CB----CB, which finally changes to to A---BA---BA---BA. By itself it sounds like something written by an idiot. There is nothing there. But the LH chords keep moving just ONE note at a time, always 1/2 step, which is about as "slithery" as anything can get.

Jumping probably a century and a half, there is a super collection of Guaraldi tunes arranged by Lee Evans:

http://www.amazon.com/Charlie-Browns-Greatest-Hits-Evans/dp/tags-on-product/0793508207

It looks like something for tiny tots, but there are two ballades, Air Music and Love Will Come that are so elegantly arranged that they can be played note for note and sound great. Air Music uses: G--- BA------B------BA--------B------BAG, then uses an EGE fragment and repeats that. Like the Chopin, the melody, by itself, sounds idiotic, but all the movement is in the LH. The first half uses rootless chords, lots of 7ths and such on the bottom of chords in the middle of the piano, then it repeats with roots and everything fleshed out.

I doubt too many people would link Chopin, Bach and Guaraldi, but they are all doing much the same thing. That's what I think is so cool about music. I describe what is going on in all of them with letter chords. We go over the music exactly as it is notated, then explore ways to expand or alter things.

Have any of you heard a version of Heart and Soul that keeps the simple melody and puts it with a chromatically descending bass?
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#1881045 - 04/17/12 10:08 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
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At least in jazz circles, we call using a Db7 to move to C a tritone substitution. Db7 is the tritone substitution for the normal V chord, G7. As exalted wombat points out, G7 and Db7 share the same tritone.

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#1881048 - 04/17/12 10:09 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Jazz+ Offline
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I still say Cb9 is misleading (nonsense).
The composer of "Girl From Ipanema", Tom Jobim's, own publishing company shows shows B7(9). No confusion there.
The Hall Leonard Real Book I, Sixth Edition, simply uses B7. (All jazz pianists know that when we see a B7 we can add the 9th.)
Larry Dunlap should not have used Cb9 in Chuck Sher's lead sheet for "Girl From Ipanema". It's confusing. I doubt there are more examples of Cb9 beyond something from editor Larry Dunlap. He at least could have included some parenthesis like Cb(9)

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#1881107 - 04/17/12 11:17 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: jjo]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: jjo
At least in jazz circles, we call using a Db7 to move to C a tritone substitution. Db7 is the tritone substitution for the normal V chord, G7. As exalted wombat points out, G7 and Db7 share the same tritone.


Yeah. Whether there's much point in thinking of tritones and substitutions when the Db9 merely slides down to C9 in parallal motion is another matter. No tension notes are being resolved. It's just a "slither" (I'm warming to that description!)

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#1881110 - 04/17/12 11:19 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Jazz+]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
I still say Cb9 is misleading (nonsense).


You're dumbing down too far here. For instance, Ab minor tonality happens. Among all those Ab, Db and Gb chords and notes a B is just misleading.

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#1881119 - 04/17/12 11:26 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Use of Cb - sounds like a horn player. grin


Edited by daviel (04/17/12 11:26 AM)
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#1881208 - 04/17/12 01:45 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
keystring Offline
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Yesterday I ran into a chord that had a Cb in it and I was tempted to call it a B. But that Cb gave a clue about where the chord was going and what role it played. I still understand that it's context in the music and context in what kind of music it is. I can't see someone playing by ear having an image of a Cb in his head. Or maybe he does(?) Like if I'm playing an ordinary C7 chord going to F, will I imagine the 7 to be an A#? Do I imagine it as anything or do I just play the darn thing?

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#1881235 - 04/17/12 02:27 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Jazz+]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
I still say Cb9 is misleading (nonsense).
The composer of "Girl From Ipanema", Tom Jobim's, own publishing company shows shows B7(9). No confusion there.

There is sort of a fork in the road here. The bigger picture is that by the time you get to the key of Gb/F# you are stuck with 6bs or 6#s. F# has a C# V chord, ugly, but a B IV chord.

Gb has a Db V chord, much nicer, but a Cb IV chord. Obviously how you stack additional notes onto these chords is going to have a huge impact on simplicity.

I think the main point is that sooner or later we have to deal with major to minor moves, quick ones, and we run into Db major/C# minor, Ab major/G#m. The point is not about whether something is jazz or classical but rather the complexity of the changes. Ipanema is somewhere in the middle. It's not all I IV V, but it does not have totally wild changes either.

I'm all for the practical, so I would tend to think F# to B because F#m is immediately coming up, moving to D. (I'm not bothering with 7 or 9, because that part is obvious.) So I would write it the way you suggest, but the other way would not bother me. An Fb9 would.

I'm just not so quick to use the word "nonsense" for something that I don't agree with - well, actually, not in PUBLIC! wink
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#1881239 - 04/17/12 02:33 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: keystring]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Yesterday I ran into a chord that had a Cb in it and I was tempted to call it a B. But that Cb gave a clue about where the chord was going and what role it played. I still understand that it's context in the music and context in what kind of music it is. I can't see someone playing by ear having an image of a Cb in his head. Or maybe he does(?) Like if I'm playing an ordinary C7 chord going to F, will I imagine the 7 to be an A#? Do I imagine it as anything or do I just play the darn thing?

Just play the darn thing, name it later. smile

Something like an Fb7 or Fb7-5 going to Ab is very common in Romantic music. But for me this is all about notation, a combination of what is easier to write AND convenetions. In my mind, if I think of chord names at all, I'm certainly not thinking "French 6th". I'm just thinking of a V7 in another key slipping to a key down a half step. Fb7-5= E7-5, dominant of A, and the idea is to slip to or slip BACK to Ab. I teach augmented 6th chords (the classical name) as simply being the dominant of a key 1/2 step above the key we are moving to. The spelling problems I reserve for advanced students who need to know about notational conventions. I don't want them writing the "wrong" thing, wrong meaning unconventional, without knowing WHY they are breaking rules. Once they know the rules, I don't care if they break them.

I do. smile
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#1881245 - 04/17/12 02:45 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Jazz+ Offline
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Guys, we know the theory... the fact remains that B7 is more practical because it's easier on the eyes when sight reading a chart than the very esoteric symbol Cb9 that only Larry Dunlap used. That's Larry Dunlap, if you know the guy... Antonio Carlos Jobim, the actual composer, was more practical and published it with a B7 chord symbol and rightly so for the above reason.

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#1881247 - 04/17/12 02:48 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Jazz+]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Guys, we know all the theory... the fact remains that B7 is easier on the eyes when sight reading a chart than the very esoteric symbol Cb9

Well, pardon the **** out of me. I was explaining this for people who DON'T know all the theory. If I take your stance, I simply will not talk to anyone who I don't judge to be up to "my level" and therefore will stay away from anyone who does not "know all the theory". laugh


Edited by Gary D. (04/17/12 02:49 PM)
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#1881248 - 04/17/12 02:51 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Jazz+ Offline
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Sorry, I didn't mean to offended you, Gary. I wasn't directing "Guys we all know the theory" to you in particular, there are 8 pages of theoretical explanations in this thread now. I suspect it has maybe become overcomplicated.

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#1881252 - 04/17/12 02:56 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Jazz+]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Sorry, I didn't mean to offended you, Gary. I wrongly assumed musicians new music theory.

LOL!!!

OK. In my world running into people who know the kinds of things we are talking about is a very rare thing. I caught your point immediately.

The problem is that different keys have different problems, and what is effortless to notate in one key, any system including chords names, can become a problem in another. I spend about half my life trying to explain why something that "looks weird" is actually logical OR why something that looks weird actually COULD be written in a much more practical way. smile

If I'm talking to you, you'd just say "No reason for Gb to Cb here, F# to B is clearer", and I'm going to agree with you in a heartbeat.

It might not be so easy for students to understand this. smile
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#1881412 - 04/17/12 08:16 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Jazz+]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Guys, we know the theory... the fact remains that B7 is more practical because it's easier on the eyes when sight reading a chart than the very esoteric symbol Cb9 that only Larry Dunlap used. That's Larry Dunlap, if you know the guy... Antonio Carlos Jobim, the actual composer, was more practical and published it with a B7 chord symbol and rightly so for the above reason.


Very esoteric? You really shold get out more! What IS hard on the eyes (and the brain, should you use it while playing) is a B chord with Abm, Db etc. on either side of it!

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#1881431 - 04/17/12 09:02 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Jazz+ Offline
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Whatever... I will say it a final time, Jobim wrote B7, Hal Leonard writes B7 ...

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#1881519 - 04/18/12 12:46 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Jazz+]
LoPresti Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
I still say Cb9 is misleading (nonsense).
. . . . . Larry Dunlap should not have used Cb9 in Chuck Sher's lead sheet for "Girl From Ipanema". It's confusing. I doubt there are more examples of Cb9 beyond something from editor Larry Dunlap . . . . .

Maybe some of you folks have heard of Thelonious - umm - can't remember his last name. Of course, I don't believe he was very strong on theory and such. He wasn't a horn player, though, as I recall - maybe one of those rhythm instruments. This guy is reported to have written a couple of jazz tunes in his time, maybe even in Eb minor. But, I'm probably wrong - my writing is misleading AND nonsense.
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#1881524 - 04/18/12 01:04 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Where else are we going to get a discussion like this? Many of us have a pix of the chart Jobim wrote out on a napkin in the restaurant. I like taking all this stuff apart and putting it back together. I'd much rather bat this around than discuss it with civilians. grin
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#1881561 - 04/18/12 03:27 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: daviel
Where else are we going to get a discussion like this? Many of us have a pix of the chart Jobim wrote out on a napkin in the restaurant. I like taking all this stuff apart and putting it back together. I'd much rather bat this around than discuss it with civilians. grin

I could not agree more. For me it's not about a right answer but about considering something that, on the surface, may seem cut and dried, obvious, but may not be. I had to really think this through, because I have never really worried about playing Ipanema in any key but the standard one.

The elephant in the room is getting to keys like Ab and Db, where a switch to minor means switching to sharps. Ab to G#m, Db to C#m. But the key of Gb is a special case. Both Gb and F# average out to equally messy, depending on whether modulations or movements push to the sharp or flat side. In the case of Girl from Ipanema, I would choose F#maj7 to B7, because Gbmaj7 is fine, but Cb7 uses a Bbb. I avoid chords with double flats or double sharps IF POSSIBLE, and in Ipanmena putting the bridge in sharps at the beginning seems like a more elegant solution, notationally.

In the key of G, for the bridge, I would use: Abmaj7 to Db7, G#m7 to E7 (and so on). I would avoid using G#maj7 to C#7, though it would not bother me. My logic would be the same. I don't like using G# B# D# Fx IF I can avoid it.

But this is ONLY for Girl from Ipanema, and it is a personal choice.

I would not argue with anyone who chose different solutions. wink
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#1881562 - 04/18/12 03:40 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Jazz+]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Whatever... I will say it a final time, Jobim wrote B7, Hal Leonard writes B7 ...

Let me see if I understand you:

You are arguing for B7, not Cb7, in Ipanema. (I would too.)

But aren't you also concentrating on lead sheets, specifically?

I would only say this: Cb7, both tradionally, but also in tonal, popular music (jazz, etc.) is going to be the V7 of Fb.

I'd avoid going there IF POSSIBLE, and usually it can be avoided.

If it is used as a IV7, just for an example, if you are in something that is set in a key, you are going to end up with Gb7, Cb7 and Db7. I can't think why a simple blues tune would end up in that key, but if it did, I would pick F#7, B7 and C#7. As a brass player I would not want to be in such a key in the first place, and with so many instruments like sax, trumpet, and so on, there may be a very good reason why keys that are a pain to write in also do not appear much in arrangements.

For solo piano it would be a different matter.

I think we have to make sure we are not mixed up about whether we are limited to the chord symbol itself or the chord as notated in music that doesn't settle easily into any key. I'm used to dealing with things like A#7, not as symbols, but as a chord that suddenly pops up in a quick modulation right in the middle of something in sharps. Some composers do not like flipping from sharps to flats when there is a lot of chromatic stuff going on.

There can be quite a clash between chord charts and written out arrangements, for instance.


Edited by Gary D. (04/18/12 03:47 AM)
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#1881583 - 04/18/12 05:53 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.

Just play the darn thing, name it later. smile


Which opens another interesting point. In commercial/jazz playing we rarely play the notation literally, we use it as a road-map that shows where the music is going, then play the music. Correct spelling (rather than what may be superficially "easier" spelling) makes life much easier. If music has strayed into a lot of flats, the odd Fb chord is easier to take in than an E. Of course, if the music stays in that area for too long, a complete enharmonic shift into sharps may be indicated!

But be careful! Most music is on computer, in Sibelius or Finale, these days. Running off a transposed copy to suit a particular singer is common. Say we're going from E to Eb. No problem choosing the transposition of an augmented unison rather than a minor second - no-one wants to read D# major! (Actually, the software lets you choose a key rather than messing with augmented unisions, but it's good to understand the mechanism.) But if the logic of the music has been broken by the odd "easier" enharmonic, chaos can ensue!

(And then - I'm picturing that woman in "The Simpsons" who runs around wailing "Think of the children!" Think of the Eb sax players! Each age of music has its own practicalities, problems and solutions :-)

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#1881764 - 04/18/12 01:34 PM Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
LoPresti Offline
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Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Just play the darn thing, name it later. smile


Which opens another interesting point. In commercial/jazz playing we rarely play the notation literally, we use it as a road-map that shows where the music is going, then play the music. Correct spelling (rather than what may be superficially "easier" spelling) makes life much easier. If music has strayed into a lot of flats, the odd Fb chord is easier to take in than an E.

I think Miles said it originally (not using “darn”), and Gary was quoting him. Or, maybe Gary was quoting someone else who was quoting Miles. Or . . .

Explorers and Sea Captains have realized for ages that “the map [chart] is not the territory”. So if we are setting out to do something inventive, like improvise, or write an arrangement, we are going to use the harmonic structure “as a guide”, just as Mr. Wombat writes. But even here, we have two drastically different cases:

If I am improvising, and I hear in my “mind’s ear” a certain pitch, I am going to simply play that pitch (hopefully accurately!). It might be an Eb, it might be a D#, it could well be Fbb, it might serve as the flatted 5th on A, or the augmented 5th on G. There is a good chance that it is the suspended 4th above Bb, and it could even be the flatted 9th of a D7. I really do not care! Nor do I want to know! I hear, and I play it - end of story. But that is playing -- the territory. Now, let us turn to the map . . .

Once we analyze the playing, to preserve the sound, or to be able to reproduce it; once we systematize what a player did, in order to teach it; once we set out to create an arrangement for others to play; we have a new situation. Suddenly we are forced to treat each sound “in context”. I stated very early in this thread that once we write it down (create the map), a whole new set of rules apply. The sound no longer simply exists “in air”. We now must name it as D#, for instance, because of the key in which the piece “is written”, because of the underlying harmony, or because of the notes preceding or following. Equally with chords -- once we take that cluster of pitches out of the aural realm, and place them on the map, we are obliged to make them fit within the context of the surrounding elements on a theoretical level. To help with this, we often refer back to the sounds themselves. Is the sound in question "acting" as the augmented fifth, or as the flatted sixth?

Just as Mr.Wombat states, if we are deep into the “flat keys”, anywhere near Gary’s “point of equalization” with Gb or F# majors, but on the flat side of the dividing line (Ab, Db, Gb, Bb minor, Eb minor), an X-flat chord is going to “fit in” much better than an X-sharp chord, UNLESS the chord in question is intended as a “shocker” to the harmonic flow. Then, maybe!

Ed
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#1881801 - 04/18/12 03:01 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti
I think Miles said it originally (not using “darn”), and Gary was quoting him. Or, maybe Gary was quoting someone else who was quoting Miles. Or . . .

I was just thinking of how I approach things, but now that you mention it someone here has used that quote, maybe in a sig. smile But what I said has to do with what I teach. Get the sound first, worry about names later. I have some kids who get the names for basic note values screwed up because I do not teach using fractions. They may say a "white circle that usually lasts for the whole measure" but forget the name "whole". If I have someone who plays the music well, it is easy to add names. If I have a student who is a young "Mr. Peabody", who knows the names of everything but who can't (yet?) make music, I don't think anything important has happened yet.

What happens when we play is different for each player. It is easy to overlook the importance of this. Even when I am reading music, the music goes from the page to my fingers. I hear what is on the page, and that translates to a mental picture of my fingers pressing the keys. The mental process of pushing the keys produces the sound. I exist totally in a world of black and white patterns, the keys and fingers in my mind. There are no names. Because of this, when I read about Cb9 vs B9, I simply saw the chord. I had to take a few mintues last night to write out the bridge of Ipanema before I had an opinion. When the bridge starts in F# major, the melody spins out in a very readable and logical way, and the chords look clean to me. In Gb major, switching to F# minor, the lead line looks clean until the "mode" changes (major to minor), but the way the melody then jolts up a 4th (from D# to G#) becomes Eb to G#, and I did not like the look of that. Then, with Cb Eb Gb Bbb in the Cb7 chord, it got ugly. Not a total no-go, but it just looked so much better to me starting in F#. But in the key of G, simply transposing everything in the bridge up a major 2nd, the resulting G#maj7 to C#7 to G#m7 to E7 looked horrendous.

My number one musical interest is arranging, so when I am writing music, my black-and-white keys emphasis has to switch, since now it has to look right. I've run into countless thousand snafus over a few decades, and sometimes no matter how you write something, there are simply pros and cons. One measure looks better, the next looks worse.
Quote:

Once we analyze the playing, to preserve the sound, or to be able to reproduce it; once we systematize what a player did, in order to teach it; once we set out to create an arrangement for others to play; we have a new situation. Suddenly we are forced to treat each sound “in context”.

I agree. I am interested in the practical side of it, but notation is full of choices. Notation is one person's attempt to communicate to another what to play, and how to play it, and to me it is a lot like writing a play. One person, for instance, may attempt to describe in great detail what each "player" should be doing, tone of voice, mood, body language. There may be a lot of micro-managing in the text. Does it work? I tend to think not.

Another playwright may write little more than the words to the play itself, leaving it up to a director and talented players to get the rest. I often think we have come full circle, because when we go back to Bach, for the most part there is just the music. He makes decisions about notation concerning stems up and down, ties, shows lines in contrapuntal music, but there is next to no phrasing, no fingering, very few dynamics, and so on. It is as if he is saying: "Play my music well. If you know your craft, you will do it justice. If you do not, nothing I add is going to help."

In the 19th century that changed. By the time you get to Chopin, or Debussy, there are so many markings that I feel they drive me AWAY from the music. In fact, you will hear great player after great player obviously NOT following some of the indications, because they don't work. This to me is micro-managing.

In the 20th century, and moving into the 21st, it seems to me that simplicity has returned, especially in jazz. The idea, again, is to get the ideas down, somehow, then trust that people who know their "stuff" will get it right. To me jazz and "pop" is/are incredibly practical. If someone writes a great tune, it's going to be used, but very seldom exactly as it was written, and since the emphasis is on turning something on paper (if it even GETS there) into something living, no one cares too much about now it is notated so long as nothing really confusing is going on.
Quote:

Just as Mr.Wombat states, if we are deep into the “flat keys”, anywhere near Gary’s “point of equalization” with Gb or F# majors, but on the flat side of the dividing line (Ab, Db, Gb, Bb minor, Eb minor), an X-flat chord is going to “fit in” much better than an X-sharp chord, UNLESS the chord in question is intended as a “shocker” to the harmonic flow. Then, maybe!

This is what I tell my students: "When you see something that looks needlessly complicated written by a fine composer or arranger, if you think it is just silly, you probably have not played/written enough music yet, because sooner or later that 'weird' solution is going to end up to be the only one that works. And that is a matter of experience." smile
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#1881923 - 04/18/12 07:22 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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I accompanied some old Music Hall songs this evening. There was a Cb chord in the printed copy of some song about a "German Band". It wasn't being a German 6th though.

Just thought I'd mention it :-)

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#1881958 - 04/18/12 08:17 PM Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
LoPresti Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I was just thinking of how I approach things, but now that you mention it someone here has used that quote, maybe in a sig. smile But what I said has to do with what I teach. Get the sound first, worry about names later.

Yes.

Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Even when I am reading music, the music goes from the page to my fingers. I hear what is on the page, and that translates to a mental picture of my fingers pressing the keys. The mental process of pushing the keys produces the sound. I exist totally in a world of black and white patterns, the keys and fingers in my mind. There are no names.

This is a superb description! Because I am not a pianist, and because I play primarily from lead sheets, each of my hands “acts” differently. My RH behaves as you say, as long as there is a single melody line: See the notes and rhythm >> hear the notes and rhythm in my head >> my fingers press MOSTLY the correct keys. On the other “hand” (yes! I know . . .), my LH “thinks” in blocks of notes, even if I am rolling or arpeggiating the chords: See the chord symbol >> hear the “color” of the chord in my head >> HAND makes fingers press all notes, usually correct.

So here is an interesting nuance -
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
There are no names. Because of this, when I read about Cb9 vs B9, I simply saw the chord.

Being a real pianist, you see the composite notes of the chord notated on the staff, and translate that directly to fingers on piano keys. When you say you “simply saw the chord”, I am certain you mean notes of the chord ON THE PIANO KEYS. I, however, have a couple of inversions of B9 set in my HAND - my eye sees the chord symbol, and my HAND forms one of the inversions. Because the Cb(9) is not used enough to be “set” in my LH, I have to either quickly “transpose” Cb(9) = B9, or quickly spell the chord, and intentionally get my fingers over the correct notes. It is simply not as automatic for me.

And, to the point make repeatedly on this thread, once I had figured out that enharmonic relationship, I would thereafter “think of the Cb(9)” as my B9 that is already “in my LH” - but for PLAYING PURPOSES ONLY. Just because I am going to be expeditious or lazy in playing does not excuse me from knowing the proper name that should appear “on the MAP”.

Originally Posted By: Gary D.
. . . when I am writing music, my black-and-white keys emphasis has to switch, since now it has to look right.

Exactly. We can no longer be in our own little worlds of sound, but now must make it so others can duplicate that world.

As you can tell, I am starting to enjoy this topic, too.
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#1881963 - 04/18/12 08:32 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
LoPresti Offline
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Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
I accompanied some old Music Hall songs this evening. There was a Cb chord in the printed copy of some song about a "German Band". It wasn't being a German 6th though.


Oompah! Oompah!

Cb chords, with or without extensions, abound. I am still wracking the old brain for that elusive Fb(7). Although it contradicts everything we know about string players' key preferences, I am certain that Charles Mingus used it several times, and the tune Good Bye, Pork Pie Hat simply comes to mind. (Eb minor BLUES, covering all the bases!(basses?)) I have been unable to find any definitive "original" showing a sketch or his notation.

Ed
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#1881978 - 04/18/12 09:00 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Gary D. - Your description of playing music off the page is true - that is the way it seems to me. I feel like I am in the score - it's a little world. No names just the blur of notation turned into sound that teems with ideas. I love that sensation. and it's funny when I play pieces I know pretty well, I focus mainly on the bass clef - it's like my right hand just handles its business on its own. The experience of playing classical pieces off the page is a unique thing for me. I am mainly working on sight reading and reeling in some pieces that I once knew, or should have known. I love doing it. Just my experience with it. So far as the blues R&B and rock stuff, I really never practice it at home, only when the bands have a rehearsal (except I need to work up a part for "FM"). I play that stuff just out of my head at the time - again very neat experience - that is the ultimate living in the moment. I can't get along without either experience - makes life worth living. To communicate the information we are discussing to the bands, I have to demonstrate what I want them to do in a way they'll understand. Bass player in one band was a woodwinds player in an Air Force band - the rest of them take some finesse. That's what is so interesting about this thread- I love theory discussions, but I also know that the main thing is to get the sound that works whatever you call it. Since I resigned from work and retired I can practice with enough time and energy. Life is good. smile


Edited by daviel (04/18/12 09:03 PM)
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#1882229 - 04/19/12 08:55 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
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I see that you have mostly intepreted this as Fb(9). What about F(b9)? Do b9 chords get used? I just read something which said that a minor ninth is the most dissonant of dissonant intervals. (Not sure why it's more dissonant than a minor second, but maybe they were just considering large intervals.)
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#1882231 - 04/19/12 09:02 AM Fb9 chord [Re: PianoStudent88]
LoPresti Offline
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Hey PianoStudent88,

I wondered how long it would take you to check-in on one of your favorite subjects . . .

The missing-in-action Mr. Tango starts by asking how to spell, and construct an “Fb9” chord.

Immediately, Custard Apple and Studio Joe just ASSume the F(b9), and answer based on that ASSumption, and leave it at that.

JasperKeys is the first to recognize the ambiguity.

Daviel jumps in with one way of thinking about Fb (9).

I ask for clarification:
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Tango,

Do you see the confusion? In order to answer correctly, we need to know if you are referring to "F major with a flatted ninth" {F (b9)}, or "F-flat major with an added ninth" {Fb (9)}. These are two completely different chords, and would be used in drastically different settings.

What is the context in which you find this? What key are we in? What other chords immediately surround this one in question. More info, please . . .

As it turns out, I should not have bothered, but that is another story . . . . .

Tango, still watching his own thread at that point, responds:
Originally Posted By: Tango
Hello all.I apologize for not giving the key and progression of this blues song.This Fb9 chord is taken from the song,"Texas Flood" by Larry Davis and Joseph W. Scott .The song is in the key of Ab.The Fb9 is in the introductory measure #4.The blues progression is Ab,Db,Ab,Fb9,Eb9.

It is obvious that he is referring to Fb(9) for the following reasons:
[1] The key (Ab major), and the surrounding chords.
[2] It is a “down home” style blues. If it were a 1950s or 1960s rock-and-roll piece, then the F (b9) COULD work.
[3] The chromatically descending ninth chord a common structure in blue and jazz.
[4] Subsequent posts confirm the harmony and the style. Also that it might be common to tune the guitars a step or two lower for various reasons, which would have the effect of making “foreign” chords (like F9 in the key of A major) even MORE foreign.

I am certain your question about flatted ninth chords is, at least in part, a rhetorical one. The most common occurance is the dominant seventh chord with ninth in harmonic minor, where it occurs naturally.

As far as dissonance, as you know, it ALL depends on the surroundings. There may be a scientific reason for that position, involving the overtone series where the “beats” are more violent in a minor ninth - I really have no idea.
One of the most beautiful suspensions in the universe is 6 resolving to 5 in a minor key, with either tonic or the dominant in the bass! Key: {F minor}. Dominant flatted ninth chord{C + E + G + Bb + Db) >> resolving to Tonic chord {F + Ab + C }! Try it - you’ll like it!
Ed
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#1882244 - 04/19/12 09:24 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: PianoStudent88]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I see that you have mostly intepreted this as Fb(9). What about F(b9)? Do b9 chords get used? I just read something which said that a minor ninth is the most dissonant of dissonant intervals. (Not sure why it's more dissonant than a minor second, but maybe they were just considering large intervals.)


Are you serious? :-)

Assuming you are, yes, the b9 chord is extremely common in all styles of music.

As well as the standard chord, every diminished 7th chord is essentially a dominant 7th(b9) chord with the root missing. There's a good one near the beginning of Bach's famous D minor toccata. C#, , G, Bb over a D root - now THERE's an interesting bunch of dissonances!

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#1882254 - 04/19/12 09:48 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
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I am serious. Well informed in some areas, and massively naive in others. And there I had only just finished reading this week about diminished and half-diminished chords and how to consider them as rootless ninths. In one ear and out the other, I guess. But what about flat ninth chords that include the root?

I've only just started to really grapple with extended chords and rootless chords, and it's all still really foreign to me.
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#1882259 - 04/19/12 10:00 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: PianoStudent88]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
But what about flat ninth chords that include the root?


Very common, both as a melody note and as colour within a dom7 type chord.

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#1882262 - 04/19/12 10:04 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
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Thanks, Exalted Wombat. I think if I've met these before, I've glazed over them as "note not in the harmony." Will have to start paying attention and naming them by interval.
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#1882267 - 04/19/12 10:08 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: PianoStudent88]
jjo Online   content
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Pianostudent88: In jazs, one of the most common uses of the b9 on a dominant chord is what we call the minor II-V-I. If you are playing a II-V-I sequence that will end on a minor chord, the norm is to play the flat 5 in the II (a half dimished chord)and the flat 9 on the dominant chord (it's the same note).

In addition, if you are playing with a bass player (or even not), you can do this with rootless chords. Here is a rootless voicing for a II-V-I to C minor, for left handed rootless chords that would accompnay your right handed improvisation.

From bottom up:
II: F Ab C D
V: F Ab B D#
I: Eb G A D (if you want the I to be a minor 6)

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#1882286 - 04/19/12 10:45 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: jjo]
LoPresti Offline
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Originally Posted By: jjo

From bottom up:
II: F Ab C D
V: F Ab B D#
I: Eb G A D (if you want the I to be a minor 6)

I suppose it is not really my place to say, here, but I am not certain you are helping CLARIFY things by throwing in an AUGMENTED dominant with flatted ninth. With full and total respect to PianoStudent88, it is unlikely she will be playing with a bass and drummer in the next few weeks. She is asking about a flatted ninth chord, and about a minor ninth interval - not rootless chords and shells and dilutions. Those topics can, and should, all come much later.

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#1882310 - 04/19/12 11:27 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti
With full and total respect to PianoStudent88, it is unlikely she will be playing with a bass and drummer in the next few weeks.

I'll get right on that wink .
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#1882426 - 04/19/12 02:34 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I see that you have mostly intepreted this as Fb(9). What about F(b9)? Do b9 chords get used? I just read something which said that a minor ninth is the most dissonant of dissonant intervals. (Not sure why it's more dissonant than a minor second, but maybe they were just considering large intervals.)


Are you serious? :-)

Ah, you are assuming that students just know these things. Believe me, they don't. MY students do, sooner or later, because they are very important to me, and the flat 9 concept is terribly important in my teaching. I teach that a flat 9 chord is both a dominant 7 chord AND a fully diminished chord, all connected. We get to use the advantages of both. And I teach the the flat 9 chord, with the root removed, as a fully diminished, a "rootless flat 9" and a "dominant with a raised root".

So G B D F Ab is V7 plus an extra note (b9). Thus G7(b9) or G7-9

B D F Ab is a rootless G7-9. I have my students write "G7-9", in quotes. We agree that "" means that there is no root, but there COULD be.

Ab B D F = G7 with root raised (really (b2 which = b9). I have students write:

Ab B D F = G7 RR (raised root)= Ab dim7. This is to hammer on the function.

This all assumes the next chord will be C or Cm.

This happens EVERYWHERE. It is very common in Bach, but it's all over the place in 20th and 21st century non-classical music. smile
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#1882441 - 04/19/12 03:08 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat

Are you serious? :-)

Ah, you are assuming that students just know these things.


No, not at all! It was just that after all the deep theoretical argument, such a basic question seemed almost humorous! No insult intended.

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#1882463 - 04/19/12 03:41 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
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Thank you for the replies! Although I have misplaced my bass and drummer, I am happy to know about rootless chords, raised roots, augmented fifths, rotating diminished chords, and (rootless) minor II V I progressions, because they open a window on the very wide vistas of what harmony can do. And yet all of these link up with the single idea of dominant chord progression, which is pretty amazing to me amidst what to me is still a great deal of complexity.
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#1882487 - 04/19/12 04:06 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: PianoStudent88]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Thank you for the replies! Although I have misplaced my bass and drummer, I am happy to know about rootless chords, raised roots, augmented fifths, rotating diminished chords, and (rootless) minor II V I progressions, because they open a window on the very wide vistas of what harmony can do. And yet all of these link up with the single idea of dominant chord progression, which is pretty amazing to me amidst what to me is still a great deal of complexity.


Homer Simpson has the right idea. It's all about "D'oh!" and the ways we get back there.

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#1882510 - 04/19/12 04:58 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
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A bass and drummer is readily avaiable on an IPhone using the Real Books app! (I kid because I can seen from PianoStudent88's list of pieces that he's working on classical pieces.) If some day you want to try jazz, for better or worse, machines do a lot these days!

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#1882548 - 04/19/12 05:38 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
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Oh dear, I've been rumbled by my .sig as an interloper here in the non-classical domains. Here to steal your chord analysis and apply it to my classical music. smile .
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#1882557 - 04/19/12 05:55 PM Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
LoPresti Offline
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Ok, Gang,

On the Forum, I have been reading for a few months now about the "rootless" chords, particularly "rootless" dominants. They are everywhere I look, and they seem to be in vogue, as if they were a new discovery. I recognize that I am opening up the flood gates here, but I am not certain I buy the idea.

Before all you experts jump on this, kindly read, and digest my reasoning.
Scenario A: I know from experience it is usually not necessary to play chord roots in a combo, where that function is typically covered by the double bass. In fact, attempting to do so often gets "muddy and messy". But to me, this implies that usually the root (or 5th) of each chord WILL be there, it is just that the piano does not need to play it.

Scenario B: As more extensions, or “color tones” are added to chords, the five-digit pianist runs out of fingers. So it is only logical that a thinking pianist will attempt to play the “most important” notes in any given chord, logically abandoning the ones of lesser importance. Frequently, with or without a double bass, the roots are the first to go. My ears are not convinced that those roots are as dispensable as many here seem to think.

Scenario C: I fully recognize the versatility of the diminished triad or diminished seventh. Just like an augmented triad, it can act as a pivot point between tonal centers. In this sense, applying or assigning a actual root removes much of its versatility.

Scenario D: While I would never argue that a diminished triad built, say, on the leading tone, can SERVE in place of a dominant seventh chord, it is not, in any theoretical sense equivalent to that chord built on the dominant NOTE. In a sense, it is a SUBSTITUTE for the dominant, not a dominant with it’s defining root missing. In the self-same manner that a ii7 can substitute as a IV in the major keys, the chords sound somewhat similar, but have important differences.

Finally, to the REAL STUFF - what we hear. With all the foregoing in mind, I submit that THE SOUND of F(b9) is not the same as A°7 , or any other inversion of the diminished seventh. The chord, by itself, sounds with a certain color that is lacking in the “rootless” version. And if it progresses to a chord built upon Bb, that root movement is a very powerful force that cannot be duplicated without that F.

OK - flood gates are wide open . . .
Ed
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#1882579 - 04/19/12 06:40 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti
OK - flood gates are wide open . . .


Is there anything to argue about? No-one's disagreeing that the dim7 can act as a dominant toward 4 different key centres. It can be useful to imagine (or add) one of 4 different bass notes completing a dom7(b9) chord. Obviously the chord has a different flavour if this "root" is added.

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#1882580 - 04/19/12 06:42 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: jjo]
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Originally Posted By: jjo
A bass and drummer is readily avaiable on an IPhone using the Real Books app!


And, rather more flexibly, on a real computer running the venerable Band in a Box.

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#1882581 - 04/19/12 06:46 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: PianoStudent88]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Oh dear, I've been rumbled by my .sig as an interloper here in the non-classical domains. Here to steal your chord analysis and apply it to my classical music. smile .


Do you separate the two? How sad!

There's a strong history of improvisation in "classical" music. And a lot of commercial material is fully notated and intended to be played "as is".

(And performers take liberties with both :-)

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#1882589 - 04/19/12 06:58 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti

Finally, to the REAL STUFF - what we hear. With all the foregoing in mind, I submit that THE SOUND of F(b9) is not the same as A°7 , or any other inversion of the diminished seventh.

Well, of COURSE not. That's the whole point. With a V7 chord, there is a very strong feeling of what is coming next, although "next" is not always where we anticipate it. But if you have an F7 chord, you are at least aware of it possibly going to Bb (or Bbm), and if Bb is the key and you are close to the end, there is nothing more. F7-9 is just an extension of that principle, and it is still driving towards Bb something.

With the diminished chord, it's about understanding why the composer or arranger or improviser chose it go where he went, and the function defines the spelling. It is, at first, a kind of reverse thinking. "We are here. How did we get there? How did s/he get there? smile

So there are very practical and useful reasons for associating the flat 9 chord with the diminshed chord that is the RESULT of leaving out the root. If I go to Cm using an Ab dim7 chord, it will not inform a student about why it was picked. But if I say, think this: Ab dim7 to G7 to C, then the logic becomes clear. Then, I can go backwards. What might come before C? G7. Okay. What chord might come before that, moving as little as possible? Ab dim7 is a logical answer, and the spelling will based on the flat 9 spelling. That's not the only way to get to the spelling, but it is the easiest way.

In other words, what is a classically trained musician going to write here: dim7 to Ab? There are many spellings. But if you think Eb7, then raise the root, you get Fb G Bb Db, thus G Bb Db Fb, thus Eb G Bb Db Fb. Once you absorb that, two things result.

1) You can choose NOT to use that spelling, for any of a million practical reasons.
2) If some geek comes along and tells you your enharmonic choice is WRONG, you can tie that geek up in his own geek-rules, explaining the logic behind the traditional rules, better than he understands them, then making a point that his blind adherence to said rules is not knowledge but ignorance. Is this necessary? In my world it is, because every time I give a student a practical solution to something, some wise-*** comes along and infers that I don't know my craft, when I do!

So I also teach that if we start with an F7-9 and understand the V to I principle, then realizing that the other, now traditionally labeled as a vii°7, still has a tendency to FUNCTION the same as a V7 chord. And this goes back to a link between the V and vii chord.

We don't need to talk about this at all if we are talking among ourselves. We are already there. But God help the poor students who read the explanations normally given in theory books. frown

When I teach the "rootless" concept, it is not mental masturbation. It is the result of years of attempting to break down something very complicated and difficult, for students, to the point that they can absorb it and use it. After that I don't care what they call these things! wink
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#1882624 - 04/19/12 07:44 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: jjo]
Gary D. Offline
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Here is a rootless voicing for a II-V-I to C minor, for left handed rootless chords that would accompnay your right handed improvisation.

I looked at what you wrote and said, "What?" Then I jumped, and it was clear.

For those who are not used to this thinking, here are some steps to get to where you went to:
Originally Posted By: jjo

II: F Ab C D

II: D F Ab C D becomes (D) F Ab C D. You are thinking Dm7-5, you invert, leave the D for the bass player.
Quote:

V: F Ab B D#

V: G B D F Ab becomes F ( G ) Ab B D becomes F ( G ) Ab B D#. Start with G7-9, then "color" the chord to G aug7-9. But for voicing, I would explain this chord as F7-5/G, and I would spell your D# as Eb.
Quote:

I: Eb G A D (if you want the I to be a minor 6)

I: C Eb G A D becomes ( C ) Eb G A D

For me that is a Cm6 add9.

So although I understand what you are getting at, I would do explain your progession this way:

Dm7 to Fm7-5/G to Cm6 add9. Then I would simply explain that you can leave out the roots, either for a spare sound (if you don't want them), or leave them for the bass player.

I would do this first, in a descriptive way, then get to the II V I function later.:)


Edited by Gary D. (04/19/12 07:48 PM)
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#1882705 - 04/19/12 10:28 PM Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
LoPresti Offline
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Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Is there anything to argue about? . . . . . Obviously the chord has a different flavour if this "root" is added.


Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
. . . . . I submit that THE SOUND of F(b9) is not the same as A°7 , or any other inversion of the diminished seventh.

Well, of COURSE not. That's the whole point. With a V7 chord, there is a very strong feeling of what is coming next . . . . .
We don't need to talk about this at all if we are talking among ourselves. . . . . .When I teach the "rootless" concept, it is not mental masturbation. It is the result of years of attempting to break down something very complicated and difficult, for students, to the point that they can absorb it and use it. After that I don't care what they call these things! wink

Not wanting to put words in anyone’s month (or, more properly, put letters coming out of their keyboards), it appears that we generally agree that a true dominant seventh (or ninth), with its root in place, is different from what we are calling a “rootless” dominant seventh (or ninth). While the true dominant and the “rootless” dominant could function in the same capacity under certain circumstances, they sound different, and they are different on a theoretical level.

And Gary, if I have it correct, you are using the “rootless” concept as a tool to simplify teaching. Maybe as a way of categorizing or grouping chords that have a “leading tone tendency” (V, vii°, even ii°). As a student gains a more advanced understanding, you will then differentiate. Please feel free to correct if I am off the mark here.

Since at least a fair part of the brain trust has weighed-in on this, kindly indulge me with one further, follow-up question: If the “rootless” dominant is not, in fact, a dominant chord, then why doesn’t everyone (except students) call those things precisely what they are?
Ed
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#1882786 - 04/20/12 03:47 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
keystring Offline
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When I started harmony theory, my books started with primary and secondary chords - the primary being I, IV and V, secondary being ii, iii, vi, viio, and the characteristics of each (major, minor etc.) Each chord was a unique thing. Then there were progressions and functions. The very first ones were I IV V, the V-I and I-V cadence. Also I vii°6 I6 as a tonic prolongation came very early.

The idea that a vii° chord is embedded in a V7 chord, or that C7 also contains a diminished chord seems more sophisticated to understand, than seeing a diminished chord as one distinct thing, and a seven chord as another distinct thing. I am seeing the "advanced understanding" in the reverse order, Ed.

It's like when I learned about ii, and IV, and they tended to toggle, and then there was this ii7, and the Eureka moment of seeing that the ii7 contained both. There are these changes of colour you can make by altering one note by a semitone - that chords are constantly in motion, and that they are like shape shifters. To me this is the more sophisticated concept, rather than the starting place. I'm thinking that if we can begin with some awareness of this, rather than starting with these fixed blobs as our first concept, it might be a handy thing to have.

(Don't know if I managed to make sense).

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#1882788 - 04/20/12 03:49 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: keystring]
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That makes complete sense to me. smile
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#1882801 - 04/20/12 04:51 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Since at least a fair part of the brain trust has weighed-in on this, kindly indulge me with one further, follow-up question: If the “rootless” dominant is not, in fact, a dominant chord, then why doesn’t everyone (except students) call those things precisely what they are?


Work out what you mean by "dominant". It's about tensions. In G7 > C, B wants to resolve to C, F to E, G to C. Combine them all, we have something worthy of the name "dominant". I think we would agree the strongest tensions are the F and the B. Let them stand, add Db. Do we have G7b5, or Db7? Do we pin the chord down as one or the other by adding a bass note, or internal notes? Who cares? The F - B tritone resolves to E - C. The smoke is white. We have a dominant!

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#1882825 - 04/20/12 06:20 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Not wanting to put words in anyone’s month (or, more properly, put letters coming out of their keyboards), it appears that we generally agree that a true dominant seventh (or ninth), with its root in place, is different from what we are calling a “rootless” dominant seventh (or ninth).

Yes, I agree, BUT:

A V7, without a 5, is different. A V7, with all notes, is different when it is inverted. It is different when it is open-voiced. It is different when the root is in the bass but different notes are on top. And so on. The point becomes how many labeling differences do we want to make? When is it useful to group things as logically connected? That will be different for each musician.
Quote:

While the true dominant and the “rootless” dominant could function in the same capacity under certain circumstances, they sound different, and they are different on a theoretical level.

I could not disagree more strongly. "Function", to me, is about how two chords work together. It can be more than two chords. To me, these are all the same function:

F B to E C. In the key of C, this has a V to I sound to me. And if it is followed by B F to C E, that's really strong. In a duet, you only HAVE to notes. If that is not a function, I don't know what is.

In the same way, the tune "What's New" starts of with a dim7 chord. D dim7 to C, in the key of C. One person may throw in a G in the bass, so the bass line is very different then. But if you play G7/D to C, the sound is very close to D dim7 to C. I hear them as two "flavors" of the same thing. Are the different? Of course. But to my ear, raising that G to Ab is just more interesting. It gives chromatic movement.

Are we defining "function" in a very different way? smile
Quote:

And Gary, if I have it correct, you are using the “rootless” concept as a tool to simplify teaching.

No. I'm doing the opposite. Lets say, for instance, that a talented young musician hears a G dim7 moving to Bm. G Bb Db E to F# B D#. The sound is right, the instinct is right, but how should it be spelled? If it is linked to the dominant of B minor, and it is obvious that the V7 is F# A# C# E, then it is child's play to write that dim7 as G A# C# E to F# B D F#. It's also ridiculously simple to throw in roots in the bassline, F# to B, and then you have F#7-9 moving to Bm.

To me that's not simplifying. That's just smart thinking. From there you can learn to judge where a dim7 chord is going from its spelling. If that same G dim7 chord is spelled G Bb Db E, its a good bet that it is about to resolve to C or Cm.

What else? Any flat 9 chord is a fully diminished chord over a root that is 1/2 step below one of the notes in the dim chord. Now, should someone who has been playing and writing music for a very long time know these things, without thinking about them? Good question. I think these are pretty advanced concepts.

Here is why: my students will accurately identify dim7 chords, but when they resolve, they are not aware of the bigger picture. They don't think, for example, that you can go G dim7 to F#7 to Bm. If those three chords are all there, they see it, but if the middle chord is missing, they don't jump. I do. So I am teaching what I see/feel/hear. And when I am notating things, I fall back on such "simplifications", in a pinch, to check enharmonics.
Quote:

Maybe as a way of categorizing or grouping chords that have a “leading tone tendency” (V, vii°, even ii°). As a student gains a more advanced understanding, you will then differentiate. Please feel free to correct if I am off the mark here.

But Ed, I AM differentiating. Grouping logically does not mean ignoring differences. I don't like RNs because I see them as rigid and horribly limiting. By ii° I assume you mean something like D F Ab in the key of C minor. But this would be just a dim triad, if I am reading you correctly. There my mind says this: Ddim is one note away from D dim7, which is 1/2 step away from G7/D. If I use ANY of those chords and more to Cm, I hear a different flavor of dominant. Maybe you mean the same thing with "leading tone tendency", but why muddy the water with such complicated terms. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

I don't think it is just a student level thing to sense that there is a feeling of just having to resolve to a major or minor chord. It is a rather advanced thing to know that you are going to end on a Cm chord, complete with as many color tones as you wish to use. Knowing that a G7 can morph to G7-5 which will restack and respell to Db7-5 and that Db F G B is only 1/2 step away from D F G B, knowing that D F Ab B is similar, knowing that D F B can be used in place of D G B, knowing that you can keep that G B D F and ADD an Ab on top, this is what I call morphing.

I literally bust my *** to teach these ideas, and I wish someone had been around to do the same thing for me when I was a student! wink
Quote:

Since at least a fair part of the brain trust has weighed-in on this, kindly indulge me with one further, follow-up question: If the “rootless” dominant is not, in fact, a dominant chord, then why doesn’t everyone (except students) call those things precisely what they are?

Because music is more complicated than that. There aren't enough names to label everything with precise names. Names are not what things are. That's why they are names. We have notation for that (and even that only gets us close), or one superb musician simply passes on certain voicings and progressions that work like magic to another. In the end, all conventions fail. RNs fail, letters fail, anything fails. Neither you nor I can possibly talk about every possible voicing of every possible chord, or any subtle variation, chormatically. As long as thing remains fairly elementary, of course you can tell me not to play a flat 9 chord, just a diminished chord, or vice versa. But there will come a time if we are playing together when the choice of which "flavor" to use at any given moment will be beyond words, beyond labels and beyond specifics. That's where the bigger picture comes in. Otherwise music turns into something much like paint by numbers. In my opinion, of course. smile


Edited by Gary D. (04/20/12 06:25 AM)
Edit Reason: reason for not editing: too tired to correct typos
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#1882871 - 04/20/12 08:30 AM Fb9 chord [Re: keystring]
LoPresti Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
. . . The idea that a vii° chord is embedded in a V7 chord, or that C7 also contains a diminished chord seems more sophisticated to understand, than seeing a diminished chord as one distinct thing, and a seven chord as another distinct thing. I am seeing the "advanced understanding" in the reverse order, Ed.

It's like when I learned about ii, and IV, and they tended to toggle, and then there was this ii7, and the Eureka moment of seeing that the ii7 contained both. . .

I am certainly not against revelation - quite the contrary! The more light-bulbs-switched-on moments we have, the better. I do not remember most of mine, but a certain one from many (MANY) years ago is still quite vivid: it was like an Epiphany - I “discovered” that an augmented seventh chord already contained most of the notes of a whole-tone scale. For weeks thereafter, I went around changing every dominant seventh to an augmented seventh, and playing a whole-tone scale over it. Now there is a prime example of a revelation gone bad!

Each of those inner relationships we see, and comprehend, makes us a more well-rounded musician, no doubt. I am simply attempting to understand how such an “insight”, like the fact that a D7 “contains” an F#° triad; then makes the theoretical LEAP to calling that F#° a “rootless” chord, spelled upon a note that is missing. Any thoughts on this?
Ed
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#1882896 - 04/20/12 09:21 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
keystring Offline
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I was actually addressing a different idea that you expressed, namely that the concept that chords are not fixed isolated entities is the less advanced thing which would *lead to* discovering that there is such a thing as a vii° chord and a V7 chord. I'm thinking that individual chords are pretty much in your face from the start. So in my mind the process would be the reverse.

About names - I dunno. I've picked up that there are two great divides: the "classical" musicians and the "non-classical" and that some aspects of music are different for the two as a generality. So some ways of naming and relating to music are different. And then even within the groups there will be some differences. So I'm also thinking that some people will have come into referring to "rootless dominants" because it reflects their reality. And I also thinking that the great divide is a mistake, but both aspects of music should exist for everyone rather than everyone huddling in his own respective corner. But I don't know what proportion of musicians use this term, and what proportion doesn't. Only that it seems to be well known in some corners (or this question wouldn't exist here).

Words are what I deal with in my work. I am forever dealing with terminology of people and what they mean by it. Words are an artificial means of trying to reflect reality and we fall short. I am thinking (hoping) that people call it "rootless" in order to reflect a reality they feel, rather than out of an inability to distinguish. When do terms clarify and when do they muddy the water? I don't know. I think maybe both. For me, the first time I heard it, it made me think and then find things. But that's a personal story.

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#1882899 - 04/20/12 09:33 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: keystring]
Legal Beagle Offline
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To my (admittedly rudimentary) way of thinking, the answer to this...
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Since at least a fair part of the brain trust has weighed-in on this, kindly indulge me with one further, follow-up question: If the “rootless” dominant is not, in fact, a dominant chord, then why doesn’t everyone (except students) call those things precisely what they are?

Is this...
Originally Posted By: keystring
So I'm also thinking that some people will have come into referring to "rootless dominants" because it reflects their reality.

And to be more specific... how they came to it. If you're playing jazz standards and you come to that chord voicing because you're looking for a hip way to play a ii-V-I, then it's a rootless dominant to you. If you came to it from Ed's point of view, as a chord floating in space that sounds different from the V with the root, then it's something else.
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#1882927 - 04/20/12 10:38 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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To me, saying it is "rootless" refers to a root. The root that is less. So the word means that it really related to the unplayed, silent, root of the chord: In C - c-e-f-a (still Dm7, ii) to f-b-e (still G7, V) to e-a-d (still Cmaj9, I). Those are not floating around, they are a ii,V,I.


Edited by daviel (04/20/12 10:42 AM)
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#1882964 - 04/20/12 12:02 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: keystring]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
I was actually addressing a different idea that you expressed, namely that the concept that chords are not fixed isolated entities is the less advanced thing which would *lead to* discovering that there is such a thing as a vii° chord and a V7 chord. I'm thinking that individual chords are pretty much in your face from the start. So in my mind the process would be the reverse.


Chords are "only in your face" if the music follows a fixed set of conventions (and there's nothing wrong with harmonically simple music), or you have no imagination!

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#1882976 - 04/20/12 12:23 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
keystring Offline
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What I'm trying to say is that in traditional harmony and how it's taught, you get these "in your face" things. They are not something you move toward learning about later as a second more sophisticated thing. They're actually a starting point, like learning the alphabet and the sound "a" makes in "cat".

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#1883105 - 04/20/12 04:16 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
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For me this:

Originally Posted By: Legal Beagle
If you're playing jazz standards and you come to that chord voicing because you're looking for a hip way to play a ii-V-I, then it's a rootless dominant to you.


Leads to this:

Originally Posted By: daviel
To me, saying it is "rootless" refers to a root. The root that is less. So the word means that it really related to the unplayed, silent, root of the chord: In C - c-e-f-a (still Dm7, ii) to f-b-e (still G7, V) to e-a-d (still Cmaj9, I). Those are not floating around, they are a ii,V,I.

Which I would explain this way:

C E F C, Fmaj7 to inversion of same: II concept leads to thinking D bass, played or not.

Fmaj7/D = Dm9

But Daviel's example is specific, concrete and practical. It gives voicing. So you can play his chord with the RH, stick in the bass with the LH, or switch the chord to LH and improvise with RH.

F B E, (G) F B E, G7 add 13, but again the concrete example shows no 5th and stress that the 13 is over the 7. No root is lean, again easy and compact for LH, leaves RH free to improv.

ALONE, E A D, could be an Asus, or Esus7. But in context, (C) E (G) A D, and no chord name is going to give voicing, or the fact that you have to perfect 4ths. You can keep it lean, no root, no 5th, but if you stick in the root, low, the G is going to be there in overtones.

Apparently I think like Daviel, so my teaching reflects my thought-process. II V I is a Big Picture concept and links in my mind every possible way of expressing this movement.


Edited by Gary D. (04/20/12 04:18 PM)
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#1884123 - 04/22/12 07:14 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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I was handed a piece of music to play including a Fb chord yesterday! Another Music-Hall show, and a very simple little ditty!

But in the interests of honesty, I must reveal that it was a song copy downloaded from one of those on-line stores that let you choose your own transposition. The singer had asked for "one down" from C major and had been given it. Literally.

Bit of a shock on a "quick look through then do the show" gig though!

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#1884329 - 04/22/12 02:05 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Well, good! You had this discussion thread to fall back on - kept you alert for the nonsense these on-line stores send out.
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#1884362 - 04/22/12 02:57 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: daviel
kept you alert for the nonsense these on-line stores send out.


They're a wonderful resource. But ask for Cb major, that's what you get!

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#1884402 - 04/22/12 04:00 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
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Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
I was handed a piece of music to play including a Fb chord yesterday! Another Music-Hall show, and a very simple little ditty!

But in the interests of honesty, I must reveal that it was a song copy downloaded from one of those on-line stores that let you choose your own transposition. The singer had asked for "one down" from C major and had been given it. Literally.

Bit of a shock on a "quick look through then do the show" gig though!

And that's not the worst of it. When these machines do transpositions, they keep the same clefs no matter how much higher or lower you go. It produces some WEIRD stuff!!!
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#1884663 - 04/22/12 10:33 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Registered: 11/14/07
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Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Would have thought "one down" was Bb - one whole step down. If it's a half-step down it's B. That's the word from here! Aaahh singers! Our R&B band plays "Sugar in My Bowl in B. Working the song up we just had the singer sing naturally and comfortably and that's what key she was in. I laugh inside when the singer asks what key a song is in. Aaahhh singers
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#1884895 - 04/23/12 09:54 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Legal Beagle Offline
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Registered: 12/24/09
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Originally Posted By: daviel
Would have thought "one down" was Bb - one whole step down. If it's a half-step down it's B. That's the word from here! Aaahh singers! Our R&B band plays "Sugar in My Bowl in B. Working the song up we just had the singer sing naturally and comfortably and that's what key she was in. I laugh inside when the singer asks what key a song is in. Aaahhh singers

Q: How do you know when there's a singer at your front door?

A: She can't find the key and doesn't know when to come in.

(with apologies to all of the truly wonderful singers out there, just a little humor from my gigging days as a trombonist)
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#1884903 - 04/23/12 10:03 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Registered: 02/28/09
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Loc: London UK
Quote:
Q: How do you know when there's a singer at your front door?

A: She can't find the key and doesn't know when to come in.

Which is why she's knocking at the window, not the door :-)

Q: How do you know when there's a drummer at your front door?
A: The knocking speeds up.

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#1885072 - 04/23/12 02:36 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Legal Beagle Offline
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Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Quote:
Q: How do you know when there's a singer at your front door?

A: She can't find the key and doesn't know when to come in.

Which is why she's knocking at the window, not the door :-)

Q: How do you know when there's a drummer at your front door?
A: The knocking speeds up.


That's a good one. Our drummer one was...

Q: What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend?

A: Homeless.
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#1885083 - 04/23/12 03:12 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Legal Beagle]
Gary D. Offline
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<Rim shot>
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#1887488 - 04/27/12 12:41 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
daviel Offline
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Registered: 11/14/07
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Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Q: How do you know the stage is level?

A: The drummer is drooling out of both sides of his mouth.

On another front, there is the Nashville chart. Here is an example taken from an internet site:

"A number chart using Nashville Number System method for the Bob Segar classic “Old Time Rock and Roll” would look like this:

1 1 4 4
5 5 1 5
1 1 4 4
5 5 1 5 "

Here's the link - best instructional site for this method I have seen.

http://nvsongwriter.hubpages.com/hub/nashvillenumbers

So if you get a call from a Nashville Studio, you won't be paralyzed - at least you won't be paralyzed by the chart. But you don't know what keys you'll have to play in until the singer warms up!


Edited by daviel (04/27/12 12:45 PM)
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#1887494 - 04/27/12 12:58 PM Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
LoPresti Offline
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Only in Nashville! My daughter and her husband lived and worked there for a while. Fortunately, I WAS able to get them out in time . . .

Ed
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#1887534 - 04/27/12 02:05 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: LoPresti]
daviel Offline
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Registered: 11/14/07
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Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
That is one city where a musician has a chance to make a living. If you play a session, you have to know how to read! Plus it's in a Southern state - near and dear to my heart.


Edited by daviel (04/27/12 02:16 PM)
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#1887579 - 04/27/12 03:35 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Studio Joe Offline
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Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Davie, I played with a band for a while that had all their songs charted in the Nashville number system. You may have heard of them. They were known at the time as 'King Cone and the Wise Guys'.

They later changed their name because outside of Wise County the name didn't make sense.
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#1887636 - 04/27/12 05:34 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
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Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: daviel

So if you get a call from a Nashville Studio, you won't be paralyzed - at least you won't be paralyzed by the chart. But you don't know what keys you'll have to play in until the singer warms up!

I love playing with systems. So let me see if I understand:

I saw 4/6 b7. Putting it in C major:

F7/A?

What do we do in minor?

Cm = 1 b3?

Cm7 = 1 b3 b7?

C sus 7 = 1 4 b7?

C maj7 = 1 7

Am I close?

Don't worry about PADS. I will respond and ask more questions!
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#1887673 - 04/27/12 06:42 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Registered: 11/14/07
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Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
The more complicated stuff is set out at the end of the link I posted. http://nvsongwriter.hubpages.com/hub/nashvillenumbers
Frankly, I never use it, but the few times I have I pretty much add the extras I think fit. I am used to the Bob Seegar type stuff - just a simple guide. Like we had tossed around before, if the chords are all that important style-wise, then write them out. The writer's point is that one can learn a lot of music fast this way, in any key.


Edited by daviel (04/27/12 06:49 PM)
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#1887680 - 04/27/12 06:50 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Studio Joe]
daviel Offline
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Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Studio Joe: Unfortunately, no. But if Wise County is like Ellis County, not much gets out!
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http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1887691 - 04/27/12 07:33 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
Studio Joe Offline
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Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted By: Gary D.

I love playing with systems. So let me see if I understand:

I saw 4/6 b7. Putting it in C major:

F7/A?

What do we do in minor?

Cm = 1 b3?

Cm7 = 1 b3 b7?

C sus 7 = 1 4 b7?

C maj7 = 1 7

Am I close?



Cm = 1m or 1-

Cm7 = 1m7

Csus7 = 1sus7

Cmaj7 = 1maj7, or 1M7

b7 indicates a chord built on the flatted 7th scale degree.

In slash chords the bottom number is for the benefit of the bass player. Inversions are not specified otherwise.


Edited by Studio Joe (04/27/12 07:42 PM)
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#1887737 - 04/27/12 08:51 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Studio Joe]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Studio Joe
Originally Posted By: Gary D.

I love playing with systems. So let me see if I understand:

I saw 4/6 b7. Putting it in C major:

F7/A?

What do we do in minor?

Cm = 1 b3?

Cm7 = 1 b3 b7?

C sus 7 = 1 4 b7?

C maj7 = 1 7

Am I close?



Cm = 1m or 1-

Cm7 = 1m7

Csus7 = 1sus7

Cmaj7 = 1maj7, or 1M7

b7 indicates a chord built on the flatted 7th scale degree.

In slash chords the bottom number is for the benefit of the bass player. Inversions are not specified otherwise.

Thanks!!!

It's very confusing to me only because I started out with RNs, which I don't even really like, then moved to letter chords. But I really like the idea of using arabic numbers for bass notes, if they are needed.

G7/B is what I prefer, and I also recommend just G7 unless giving notes for a bass player.

That turns out to be V6/5 traditionally, and it's linked to figured bass. For me it goes straight to *** when things get chromatic.

It looks like the Nashville system attempts to fix the problem that plagues students the most, the idea that 7, by itself, really means m7 or b7/

Calling a G7 1 b7 looks harder, at first, but can you do this:

Key of C major, Db7-5, b2 b5b7, or b2 b7-b5?

If the system could be used that flexibly, I can see how it might fill a lot of RN holes! wink
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#1887803 - 04/27/12 11:51 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
It's kind of like keeping score in baseball. You chart the game so you can remember everything that happened. You write out in numbers what works for you - you're writing out a numbers chart for yourself that you will use to play the tune.
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

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#1887807 - 04/28/12 12:00 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
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Loc: South Florida
That's an interesting way to look at. I see "analysis", working out WHY things are happening, vs. "description", just making note of what is going on.

The other big contrast is preparing something for any key, instantly transposable, vs something that is clearly not going to be transposed.

I would be interested where other people find that moving to other keys becomes impractical. I find very simple things effortless to play in any key, but very complicated things with unigue changes would not work for me. I'd have to work them out in the new key(s), then jot down specific chords.
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#1887924 - 04/28/12 09:58 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
Studio Joe Offline
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Registered: 03/28/07
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Loc: Decatur, Texas
Good observation Gary. 'Nashville Number System' is definitely not for anylsis. It is more like a road map. It makes no attempt to tell you why there's a turn in the road, just where to turn and which direction.

As for as transposing a complex song to another key, I too find it difficult. But that's my fault for not knowing all keys equally well by numbers.

Originally Posted By: Gary D.
That's an interesting way to look at. I see "analysis", working out WHY things are happening, vs. "description", just making note of what is going on.

The other big contrast is preparing something for any key, instantly transposable, vs something that is clearly not going to be transposed.

I would be interested where other people find that moving to other keys becomes impractical. I find very simple things effortless to play in any key, but very complicated things with unigue changes would not work for me. I'd have to work them out in the new key(s), then jot down specific chords.
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#1887985 - 04/28/12 12:52 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
What got me playing in different keys was singers. Now I see it as a challenge and refuse to use a transpose button on DP's. I agree that some keys are harder than others for me, but it's just because I don't have the experience in playing them. When I have to, I just try and work through it. No pain; no gain! and I never ask why - except on this forum!! cool


Edited by daviel (04/28/12 12:53 PM)
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#1887986 - 04/28/12 12:55 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1208
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: daviel
What got me playing in different keys was singers. Now I see it as a challenge and refuse to use a transpose button on DP's. I agree that some keys are harder than others for me, but it's just because I don't have the experience in playing them. When I have to, I just try and work through it. No pain; no gain!


I've no moral objection to the transpose button. But I can't use it. I don't suffer from absolute perfect pitch, but my brain knows when I'm hitting keys and the wrong notes are coming out! I find myself automatically transposing to compensate, and chaos results.

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#1887991 - 04/28/12 01:05 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
They should ban transpose buttons!
_________________________
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http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1888018 - 04/28/12 02:17 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted By: daviel
What got me playing in different keys was singers. Now I see it as a challenge and refuse to use a transpose button on DP's. I agree that some keys are harder than others for me, but it's just because I don't have the experience in playing them. When I have to, I just try and work through it. No pain; no gain!


I've no moral objection to the transpose button. But I can't use it. I don't suffer from absolute perfect pitch, but my brain knows when I'm hitting keys and the wrong notes are coming out! I find myself automatically transposing to compensate, and chaos results.

My pitch sense varies from plus/minus 1/2 step to dead-on, so if a keyboard is transposed, I can't play anything. TOTAL disorientation!
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#1888041 - 04/28/12 03:48 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
LoPresti Offline
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Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
I've no moral objection to the transpose button. But I can't use it. I don't suffer from absolute perfect pitch, but my brain knows when I'm hitting keys and the wrong notes are coming out! I find myself automatically transposing to compensate, and chaos results.


Originally Posted By: daviel
They should ban transpose buttons!


Originally Posted By: Gary D.
My pitch sense varies from plus/minus 1/2 step to dead-on, so if a keyboard is transposed, I can't play anything. TOTAL disorientation!

I have a feeling that each of us would have trouble riding a tricycle.
Ed
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#1888049 - 04/28/12 04:22 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
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Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
I never thought about it - never having used a transpose button, but playing in F on the keyboard and having Eb coming out of the speakers would really be weird. Gives me the willie nelsons crazy
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

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#1888059 - 04/28/12 04:55 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
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Loc: South Florida
I can read music and still play the right keys with a transpose button, but even something I have played perfectly all my life, from memory, goes up in smoke when the music is gone, and I can play NOTHING be ear when a keyboard is transposed
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#1888064 - 04/28/12 05:09 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Studio Joe Offline
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Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
I used the transpose button once. I was in the house band at an open mike event when a guest singer comes up to the stage and announces she will sing "Crazy" in the key of A. I know the song but never played it in that key. It has so many chords including diminished and augmenteds, I decided to cheat and transposed the keyboard down 3 half steps so I could play in C. It was a train wreck. The bass player was lost so he stepped behind me to watch my hands (wrong).

The singer did a good job in spite of the band.
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#1888119 - 04/28/12 07:29 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
That's a difficult song to experiment with! I don't know how anyone can use that transpose button - it's the devil's button


Edited by daviel (04/28/12 07:31 PM)
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1888261 - 04/29/12 08:37 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Gary D.]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1208
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I can read music and still play the right keys with a transpose button, but even something I have played perfectly all my life, from memory, goes up in smoke when the music is gone, and I can play NOTHING be ear when a keyboard is transposed


That's the key to it I think. When reading notation literally, the button is useable. But the situation where it's usually needed is when playing from a song copy. These generally aren't MEANT to be played literally - it's a "glance at the notation then play the music" job.

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#1888263 - 04/29/12 08:38 AM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: daviel]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1208
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: daviel
That's a difficult song to experiment with!


Yeah. In jazz you can pretend you were trying a far-out substitution. Pop and Country demand the RIGHT chords!

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#1888424 - 04/29/12 02:43 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
The perfect place to bring up Spinal Tap's take on Jazz at about 1:25:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wscZhvj_lH4

It's all wrong notes.
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1888445 - 04/29/12 03:15 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Tango]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted By: daviel
The perfect place to bring up Spinal Tap's take on Jazz at about 1:25:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wscZhvj_lH4

It's all wrong notes.


And all the time I thought I just didn't get it.
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Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

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#1888447 - 04/29/12 03:26 PM Re: Fb9 chord [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I can read music and still play the right keys with a transpose button, but even something I have played perfectly all my life, from memory, goes up in smoke when the music is gone, and I can play NOTHING be ear when a keyboard is transposed


That's the key to it I think. When reading notation literally, the button is useable. But the situation where it's usually needed is when playing from a song copy. These generally aren't MEANT to be played literally - it's a "glance at the notation then play the music" job.

Right. But also I like to show people from time to time what famous music, always played in a particular key, would sound like in a very different key, to highlight (perhaps) why thing really do sound better in the "right key". If I make a tritone switch, my memory is totally deactivated and I can't play anything. I have to use a score, and even then it is difficult.

Something I wonder about: my pitch is much more accurate when I read a score away from the piano. If I pre-hear, some kind of orientation kicks in and I am accurate enough to fool most people into thinking I have perfect pitch.

But when I hear a chord, at random, I am more likely to slip off 1/2 step in either direction. I will never think a G chord is an F chord, or visa versa, but I may get mixed up with Gb/F# on a piano when the default equal-temperament tuning is used.
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