Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Problem with my AvantGrand N1 (Edit: Problem solved)

Hi,

I've been a very satisfied AvantGrand N1 owner, but I've noticed a very annoying issue. If you play big, fast fortissimo chords (with both hands) in different octaves, and lifting/pressing down the sustain pedal before each new chord, the N1 often can't keep up. In other words, certain chords/notes are delayed (very high latency).

The best example I can give is Grieg's Piano Sonata in bars 140-141 (first movement), when you play these bars and press down the sustain pedal before each new chord. Typically on the dominant (Bsus4) there is a serious lag/high latency.
This can also happen towards the end of the downward chord sequence at the start of Grieg's Piano Concert in a minor, although it is less severe here.

Can anyone else replicate this problem on their N1 (or N2/N3)? I will talk with my dealer, but it would be interesting to hear if other AvantGrand users can replicate this issue.
Thanks.

I used to get that exact problem on my old $600 Casio PX-310 (although the lag was not as pronounced as you make it sound). That, 5 years later, you're experiencing that on a $6,000 board is unacceptable. I do hope you find a solution.

It's very disappointing.
If you don't notice it at first (AvantGrand owners), try playing some fast runs and then do the big chords.I've also noticed that the CPU of the instrument is very slow. It takes about 8-9 seconds to process a short midi recording (that is having pressed stop after the recording). Don't know if this is somehow connected, i.e. an underpowered processor driving the instrument.
Hopefully it's just an issue with the internal key action...

Can you provide a video or a recording of this?

Well, it just sounds like the piano can't keep up with my playing (ie. some notes lag behind). (You can also compare it to playing back a score in Sibelius/Finale, when you come to a point in the score with more instruments and notes at the same time than the computer can handle..)
Can anyone replicate this problem on their AvantGrand? Thanks.

I _suspect_ you're reaching the limit of the polyphony and noticing its attempts to hide the problem.

Nope, it isn't notes dropping out, it's notes that are *delayed", in other words lagging behind - sounds like sloppy playing. I'm definately not reaching the end of the polyphony limit.

Slow CPU, perhaps. The same happens on V-Piano (but, interestingly, not on low-grade Yamaha P140; I think P140 has a simpler playback algorithm and it's easier on its CPU).

Your comment on slow recording processing is spot on and describes an unforgivable miss. P140 does the same - takes some 10 seconds after you finish recording to process the MIDI.
Given that Yamaha has to process just a few kilobytes of data, at best, the multisecond delay is a blackeye to Yamaha.


Regarding CPU state-of-the-art speeds: if you are getting 3 ms lag per key, this is in the range of fastest VST plugins.

But when you press an 8 key chord, the last note sounds with a 24ms delay. That's very noticeable. Double chord - and you may get a 50ms lag. So, CPU should provide a <1ms delay for large chords. That's tough even for latest processors. So, I think what you are reporting is real and unfixable.

I could quite easily believe a modelling machine would be lagging, but if its based on recordings it ought to be rather easier to have a faster response.

Yeah, I understand that delays could happen using the V-Piano, as that added ms lag would be caused by the demanding algorithm processing many notes at the same time, but not on a digital piano that's simply just playing back samples. I mean, if it is an underpowered CPU that's causing this on my AvantGrand, it is pretty outrageous for an instrument made in 2011.
Maybe it is some kind of weakness in the grand action, or with the digital sensors... who knows... I'll talk with the local piano store tomorrow, hopefully they'll still have an AvantGrand on display in the store. If so, I'll see if that model also has the same flaw.

are you sure you're playing in correct tempo and not too fast?

FWIW, I recall seeing similar comments from, I think, an N3 owner. Different site, and I can't remember it - sorry.

Greg.

It might have been this review: http://blog.helenyhou.com/2010/02/review-yamaha-avantgrand-n3/



Your problem may be due to polyphony, even though you don't perceive it as such. When it reaches the polyphony limit, it may cause a delay whilst it fades out existing voices to free them up for more recently played notes. Playing repeated notes with the sustain pedal may also consume far more voices than you realise. Of course, that reviewer may be wrong, and her problem is not related to polyphony, yet it may be the same problem you are experiencing.

Greg.

If it's related to polyphony, then the issue should happen even more pronounced on lower end DP's with less voices right? I was under the impression that 256 is very much compared to other models.

AG series (at least N2 and N3) are in four channels, so perhaps uses more polyphony?

Lower end pianos probably have weaker hardware, but they also stream smaller samples, so it's not clear. The problems you are describing have to do with how powerful the hardware is relative to what its software requires. The AG have the largest samples, and they apparently have four channels of it, so if they didn't scale the hardware up enough, it could easily have more problems than a low end piano.

Since there haven't been other people complaining about the same problem on their AGs, I see no reason to assume it isn't just a fault with this particular unit. I seriously doubt Yamaha didn't put a fast enough processor for its flagship DP. Book it in for a service.

I really should copy and save what I'm going to write since I've written this more than several times here.

The GranTouch 1 had 32 note polyphony (actually I believe the owner's manual stated 30 note, but that could have been a typo or my faulty memory) and I never encountered any notes dropping or any untoward behavior, never.

The AvantGrand supposedly has considerably more polyphony, draw your own conclusions.

I would like to see and hear a video of this issue.

Looks like that other reviewer has, or had a different problem - dropped notes. Quote from Yamaha AvantGrand N3: One year and 9 months later



Greg. (not an A.G owner)

Dave, from your profile I see you play jazz so don't you think classical stuff is far more demanding in terms of polyphony and speed most of the time then any other music??? because I do.