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#1878994 - 04/13/12 03:09 PM Best piano VST
pianojohnw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/12
Posts: 126
Loc: UK
Im currently using ivory 2 italian grand but im not all that impressed, it has nice sound but i just cant play really soft and load plus the bass seems to be lacking the power, I want do some good piano solo recording, what is the best piano vst I could use for sound and especially playability.
_________________________
I am a self taught piano player who has been playing the piano for 4 years, I love piano and love composing new music :-D

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#1879019 - 04/13/12 03:43 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
From my experience, if you are serious about playability, then you have to rule out VST and either get a real piano or a good digital piano.

Some will say VST are great. Fine. I'm just telling you the results of my futile quest for good piano VSTs.

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#1879076 - 04/13/12 05:29 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 846
Loc: Lakewood, CA
Many on this forum like the Vintage Galaxy D VST. I think some of the pianos in Kontakt Complete are pretty good as well. Pianoteq Play is another popular one because it is fairly cheap. IMO the dynamic range is much better in a software VST verses a digital piano with a 3 or 4 layer sample.

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#1879087 - 04/13/12 05:45 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: alekkh]
vegasE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 226
Loc: Sydney, AU
Originally Posted By: alekkh
Some will say VST are great. Fine. I'm just telling you the results of my futile quest for good piano VSTs.


Vintage D is great.

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#1879122 - 04/13/12 06:20 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
You might start with doing some work to tweak your velocity response curve. That's free. Look at the MIDI your piano is putting out when you play super quietly and when you really pound it. Most pianos don't put out very low or high velocities, so if you map the ones your piano will put out linearly from to 0 and 127, then you will find much greater dynamics. Otherwise you will be playing with only velocities 15-105 or so instead of 0-127 like the VST creators intended.

Vintage D is great, particularly in the quiet stuff. So is Ivory and the main Galaxy, though. In my opinion, it's likely that your problem is that you are playing a Fazioli. I'm sure there's excellent workmanship in Fazioli acoustics, but I think their tone is inferior to Steinways'. At least, I haven't found the same quality in the Fazioli VST's that I've found in Steinway versions.


Edited by gvfarns (04/13/12 06:22 PM)

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#1879146 - 04/13/12 06:52 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: alekkh]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: alekkh
From my experience, if you are serious about playability, then you have to rule out VST and either get a real piano or a good digital piano.

Some will say VST are great. Fine. I'm just telling you the results of my futile quest for good piano VSTs.


I really think you should stop with this VST hate nonesense. Just because you couldn't get it to work doesn't mean it's not working. You either had bad hardware with high latency or you didn't try the right VST's. Or maybe you didn't find good settings for the velocity curve. I think the guy who uses his V-Piano to control VST's is prove enough that it can work well. So well apparently that the playability bonus of the V-Piano is no longer a major factor.

Sorry for the rant, but this guy is asking for the best VST and all you have to say is that they all suck.

So to the OP, my favorite is Ivory II Steinway. It's the only one that gives me this wonderful clear, open Steinway sound that made the Steinway acoustics so popular. Close second would be Vintage D, although I do think it lacks a bit of that magic.

Synthogy will release an American Steinway this summer, wonder what that will sound like.

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#1879184 - 04/13/12 08:34 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
pianojohnw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/12
Posts: 126
Loc: UK
Ok Thanks for the advice how would I get the best settings for velocity in ivory 2, also has anyone ever used east west pianos as have just seen some demos on there site and they sound brilliant, is it any good with playability, I am considering buying it but not sure it is worth it over ivory 2 I can get east west pianos full version for £185
_________________________
I am a self taught piano player who has been playing the piano for 4 years, I love piano and love composing new music :-D

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#1879185 - 04/13/12 08:35 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3667
Loc: North Carolina
I have to agree. To say that a "good digital piano" is better than a VST piano library is like saying mud pie tastes better than Boston cream pie. Sorry. Wrong. smile

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#1879187 - 04/13/12 08:40 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: Gigantoad]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad


I really think you should stop with this VST hate nonesense.


Last time I checked I can post my opinions without censorship by Gigantoad. Stop nonsense rants and personal attacks. Bye.

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#1879190 - 04/13/12 08:49 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: MacMacMac]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
I have to agree. To say that a "good digital piano" is better than a VST piano library is like saying mud pie tastes better than Boston cream pie. Sorry. Wrong. smile


Many times I tested VSTs using Yamaha P140 keyboard as a controller and found internal P140 sounds less accurate in a recording but more playable.

That's my _experience based_ opinion. Your opinion is different, but you cannot possibly state I'm wrong. Different is just that - different.

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#1879235 - 04/13/12 10:29 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: alekkh]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 562
Originally Posted By: alekkh
[quote=MacMacMac]
That's my _experience based_ opinion. Your opinion is different, but you cannot possibly state I'm wrong. Different is just that - different.

You are indeed entitled to post your opinions as much as anyone else. But the fact that you were not able to do what many other people have been able to do might be a reason for you to question your experience, knowledge or ability.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1879241 - 04/13/12 10:36 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: pianojohnw
Ok Thanks for the advice how would I get the best settings for velocity in ivory 2, also has anyone ever used east west pianos as have just seen some demos on there site and they sound brilliant, is it any good with playability, I am considering buying it but not sure it is worth it over ivory 2 I can get east west pianos full version for £185


EWQL produces some excellent demo clips, but the consensus is that it is far inferior to Ivory II. For one thing it lacks partial pedal capability. If you poll people who have used multiple VST's and find which they favor, I'm quite confident Ivory will come out on top followed by Galaxy.

Though MelodialWorksMusic has been playing the extreme version of Imperfect samples and says it's even better. It's not nearly as popular so we don't have a lot of opinions on it. However, it is a possible contender for number one. EWQL is probably not.

Oh, I almost forgot. There's another universally liked VST: Garritan Authorized Steinway.


Edited by gvfarns (04/13/12 10:38 PM)

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#1879273 - 04/13/12 11:48 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: Macy]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: Macy

You are indeed entitled to post your opinions as much as anyone else. But the fact that you were not able to do what many other people have been able to do might be a reason for you to question your experience, knowledge or ability.


If I don't have needed knowledge, why bother that much about my posts and opinions? Just ignore them, let me sink in my ignorance and suffer from my mistakes.


Anyway, I'm sorry to the OP. Those trolls always drive threads to their favorite places. The reason I didn't suggest any VSTs is because you used some interesting keywords in your question, like "playability" and "bass seems to be lacking the power". I gave the best answer I have.

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#1879355 - 04/14/12 03:05 AM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
Pierre P. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Paris, France
I use Ivory 2, Sampletekk's Blanck ambiant, Galaxy Vintage D and Fazzioli Imperfect samples and the internal sound of my digital piano (Kawai CA93). I switch between them given what mood I'm in, and I don't think there's one really above the others in terms of sound. Ivory with Cantabile works very good with my setup, it seems to me it achieves better latency, of course the internal library is the best in that field. But I must admit I read a lot of praise about internal sound vs VST before I purchased my first library (Ivory 2), and I was deceived in terms of sound, I thought it was different, but didn't necessarily sounded more natural or better, whatever you put behind the "better" word. And I have a pretty good soundcard (emu 0404) and an excellent headphone (sennheiser HD800). I'm just saying that for people who absolutely want to try VST thinking they will enter a new world, for me it was not the case.

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#1879481 - 04/14/12 11:04 AM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1686
Loc: Pennsylvania
I have had a roller coaster ride with VSTs.

Initially I started down that road because I was not a fan of the sound from my Kawai CA63 through the keyboard speakers or through the external speakers I purchased.

You can see the VSTs, etc ... that I have invested within my signature area below.

Initially I thought I had died and gone to heaven after my first purchase of a VST (Vintage D). However, since that time I have gone through several VSTs and have now mellowed a bit to where I find that each of them has a sound that at times I find pleasing and at other times I do not.

What I have discovered is that layering them with the sound of my CA63 gives me many, many options and I find that comforting. I am currently finding that the sound I get blending the sound of the CA63 through the pianos internal speakers along with my external monitors gives me a sound I enjoy. So, I have sort of come full circle and I seldom even use the VSTs now.

It appears that my taste for the perfect sound is in a relative state of flux and there may never be a final solution. So, now I have decided that enough is enough. I have many options for a good sound and that will have to be the end of it.

Now, I can just play the piano.


P.S. More to the question of BEST vst ...

My tastes are as follows ...

Garritan Steinway ... Galaxy Vintage D ... True Pianos ... Pianoteq PRO ... Alicias Keys


Edited by dmd (04/14/12 11:14 AM)
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#1879482 - 04/14/12 11:04 AM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
motifmm6 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/12
Posts: 89
I just had a chance to play on a Kontakt 5 demo copy. Loaded the Yamaha C7 sample and the Steinway D!

The virtual pianos have very good sound quality. The file size is big, so recording is quite detailed.

However, as with computers, the hardware (CPU speed, sound card, memory, etc) plays a very important role in processing the sound. So some people may encounter a very very very slight latency amongst other issues. Other issues like the need to make adjustments to the sounds, reverb, cutoff, resonance, attack, release, etc. Tweaking the many parameters to make the piano sound nice.

On a regular DP, you play once you turn it on. There is not that many paramters to play with. But usually the sound sample is not as detailed and as dynamic as a virtual piano. Maybe due to the sample file size.

With the advances of virtual piano, maybe more and more DP players are starting to use virtual pianos, with the DPs acting merely as a keyboard controller.

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#1879506 - 04/14/12 11:47 AM Re: Best piano VST [Re: MacMacMac]
Scooby Hoo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/10
Posts: 56
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
I have to agree. To say that a "good digital piano" is better than a VST piano library is like saying mud pie tastes better than Boston cream pie. Sorry. Wrong. smile


Better yet, like saying a 64 megabyte pie tastes much like a 16 gigabyte pie.

This thread is making me hungry.

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#1879535 - 04/14/12 01:01 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: Scooby Hoo]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Software sample makers figured that too. 99% of consumers indeed are buying number of GB.

I am that 1% that prefers quality over quantity. Quality of the job of making a set of audio samples into a playable instrument. Hence I would buy the 24MB sample set of Yamaha P140 for $1,000. I would not buy VSTs that I tried for 1/3 of that price.

Here I am - going against the crowd wink

Saying that, I think that everyone should follow their gut and be happy.
I think Ivory II is the best VST I have heard. But the OP was already not happy with it. Hence, back to the beginning of this post.

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#1879540 - 04/14/12 01:18 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: dmd]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: dmd
I have had a roller coaster ride with VSTs.

Initially I started down that road because I was not a fan of the sound from my Kawai CA63 through the keyboard speakers or through the external speakers I purchased.

You can see the VSTs, etc ... that I have invested within my signature area below.

Initially I thought I had died and gone to heaven after my first purchase of a VST (Vintage D). However, since that time I have gone through several VSTs and have now mellowed a bit to where I find that each of them has a sound that at times I find pleasing and at other times I do not.

What I have discovered is that layering them with the sound of my CA63 gives me many, many options and I find that comforting. I am currently finding that the sound I get blending the sound of the CA63 through the pianos internal speakers along with my external monitors gives me a sound I enjoy. So, I have sort of come full circle and I seldom even use the VSTs now.

It appears that my taste for the perfect sound is in a relative state of flux and there may never be a final solution. So, now I have decided that enough is enough. I have many options for a good sound and that will have to be the end of it.

Now, I can just play the piano.


P.S. More to the question of BEST vst ...

My tastes are as follows ...

Garritan Steinway ... Galaxy Vintage D ... True Pianos ... Pianoteq PRO ... Alicias Keys



That's what I was talking about. You see, if you had a VST you liked, would you buy another one? And another one?

I too bought multiple VSTs before settling on hardware DP. Only then did I not bother with searching for a better sound and feel.

FYI, and I did give the VSTs a very decent chance, running all of them through a $600 24/96 DA interface with 2-5ms latency.




Edited by alekkh (04/14/12 01:25 PM)

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#1879545 - 04/14/12 01:23 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Numbers of GB is certainly not the only factor, but it does have some relevance. The more GB the more different samples have been recorded the more different timbres can be achieved and the less looping will be going on.

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#1879551 - 04/14/12 01:28 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: Gigantoad]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
Numbers of GB is certainly not the only factor, but it does have some relevance. The more GB the more different samples have been recorded the more different timbres can be achieved and the less looping will be going on.


That's correct, of course, the more GB the higher tends to be the sound fidelity (up to a point). Bottom-mid-priced DPs are no mach to software in this regard.

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#1879596 - 04/14/12 02:49 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3667
Loc: North Carolina
And, it seems, the high-priced pianos are no match either. Even the AG's sample size can't compare to the Ivory/Galaxy libraries.

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#1879600 - 04/14/12 02:55 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: alekkh]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: alekkh
That's what I was talking about. You see, if you had a VST you liked, would you buy another one? And another one?

I too bought multiple VSTs before settling on hardware DP. Only then did I not bother with searching for a better sound and feel.


Just remember that not everyone can afford (or wants) to buy a $7000 V-Piano in order to get the two piano sounds it comes with. You can buy many, many, many VST's for that amount of money and then you will have a lot more variety and flexibility.

Yes, there is a vocal minority of people that think the V is better than Ivory in various ways. Is it 25x better? Because it costs 25 times as much, and you really just get two piano sounds with it.

For some people a V investment makes sense because of their budget and preferences. Looking over all the threads including discussion of the V piano over the last few years, I conclude that that group of people is not large, which is why a V-piano recommendation in a VST thread is always a subject of controversy.

The number of people who feel that VST's are better than the V piano in every respect that matters is much larger. And as a bonus we can all afford our VST's as well.


Edited by gvfarns (04/14/12 03:03 PM)

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#1879607 - 04/14/12 03:01 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: alekkh]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 562
Originally Posted By: alekkh
Software sample makers figured that too. 99% of consumers indeed are buying number of GB.

I am that 1% that prefers quality over quantity.

Good to know that you are in the 1% of the smart people here.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1879609 - 04/14/12 03:08 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: gvfarns]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
gvfarns - I understand the points about V-Piano, and agree. But, as a matter of fact, I referred to Yamaha P140 in my comments.

I'm trying to keep V-Piano discussions to a minimum lately not to annoy anyone even more wink

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#1879633 - 04/14/12 04:03 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 646
I'm considering a VST cause I play a few gigs where there is already a DP that management expects you to play except they're old technology and sound like sh*t. I'd buy a module if there was one available.

I guess that puts me in a different group. I'm happy with my home piano and I like my gigging piano.

? Say I want a Galaxy D or Ivory II do I just buy that particular software and an external sound card? I own a laptop with an i7 and 8gigs of ram. How much money am I spending on this? anyone?
_________________________
AvantGrand N2, FP-4, Gallien-Krueger MK & MP

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#1879638 - 04/14/12 04:12 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: 36251]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: 36251
? Say I want a Galaxy D or Ivory II do I just buy that particular software and an external sound card? I own a laptop with an i7 and 8gigs of ram. How much money am I spending on this? anyone?


Yes. Just be aware that if you get Ivory you also need to get an iLok. I spent $150 or so on Vintage D and like $150 on my external sound card.

I'm not sure I'd gig with a software piano, though. They can be a little finicky some times and you don't want to end up without sounds. I guess you could always switch back to the onboard sounds if there's a problem with your VST...

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#1879663 - 04/14/12 05:29 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: alekkh]
pianojohnw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/12
Posts: 126
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: alekkh
Originally Posted By: Macy

You are indeed entitled to post your opinions as much as anyone else. But the fact that you were not able to do what many other people have been able to do might be a reason for you to question your experience, knowledge or ability.


If I don't have needed knowledge, why bother that much about my posts and opinions? Just ignore them, let me sink in my ignorance and suffer from my mistakes.

Anyway, I'm sorry to the OP. Those trolls always drive threads to their favorite places. The reason I didn't suggest any VSTs is because you used some interesting keywords in your question, like "playability" and "bass seems to be lacking the power". I gave the best answer I have.




Hey alekkh I must admit I do prefer my inbuilt digital piano in regards to playability its not got a very nice inbuilt sound to it at all but i prefer the playability of it to ivory 2 and end up playing it more, the digital piano I have is a Kawai cl25, however I need a good piano sound for recording some solo piano pieces and most digital piano wont give me the sound i want to make a good piano recording, plus I unfortunatly dont have the money for a new digital piano with a better inbuilt sound, the problem ive found with ivory 2 is that it really doesnt give good ff, or pp dynamics or plays to high in volume in soft passages and lacks in the powerful bass, which to me makes the playability not very good as I cant get lots of dynamics in my recordings, it has a lovely piano sound in my opinion but lacks in important areas to me. looking at the demos on east west site they seem to have good dynamics and a powerful bass, and good ff dynamics however I dont want to pay out money if this isnt the case.


Edited by pianojohnw (04/14/12 05:38 PM)
_________________________
I am a self taught piano player who has been playing the piano for 4 years, I love piano and love composing new music :-D

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#1879706 - 04/14/12 07:07 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: gvfarns]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 646
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: 36251
? Say I want a Galaxy D or Ivory II do I just buy that particular software and an external sound card? I own a laptop with an i7 and 8gigs of ram. How much money am I spending on this? anyone?


Yes. Just be aware that if you get Ivory you also need to get an iLok. I spent $150 or so on Vintage D and like $150 on my external sound card.

I'm not sure I'd gig with a software piano, though. They can be a little finicky some times and you don't want to end up without sounds. I guess you could always switch back to the onboard sounds if there's a problem with your VST...
I was checking comparison on Youtube and Vintage D screenshot was Kontakt. Does that mean besides Galaxy Vingage D and soundcard I also have to purchase Kontakt - isn't that another $500?
_________________________
AvantGrand N2, FP-4, Gallien-Krueger MK & MP

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#1879719 - 04/14/12 07:46 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: 36251]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1686
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: 36251
I was checking comparison on Youtube and Vintage D screenshot was Kontakt. Does that mean besides Galaxy Vingage D and soundcard I also have to purchase Kontakt - isn't that another $500?


No. Galaxy Vintage D comes with the "runtime" version of Kontakt. It isn't the fullblown version but it works fine.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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