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"Blues" does cover a very broad spectrum, and that is why I tried to narrow the field to the 12-bar, sing-the-same-4 measure phrase-three-times style.

I wasn't going to devote any time to researching the Cb(7)question - examples are plentiful, depending upon the sophistication of the composer (or arranger), and his "chart".

In fairness, however, I am having some difficulty with the Fb(9). I had in mind Good Bye, Pork Pie Hat, but can not locate anything resembling an authoritative copy of the composer's sketch or score. Copies that do appear have been transposed as far as I can tell.

I was really hoping one of those other bold challengers would step up here, maybe with a nice, substantial wager, against finding the Cb(9) in a blues or jazz chart. Actually, NOW I AM the one still waiting . . .

Very effecient! That will leave his left hand free to play the maracas or guiro!

I didn't read any challenges or see challengers. I saw a basic point being made that different styles of music / music playing will veer toward different conventions which are the most suitable. Music is practical, except when in academic circles. It seems very reasonable that written "classical" music might use Fb(anything) for sound reason, but if people are playing by ear and improvising, shouting out "Fb" would be less efficient.

I dunno. I've always found forums to be a fantastic place for people to put their heads together, share knowledge, and sometimes come up with new ideas that emerge out of differences. I've also found the most frustrating part of forums the fact that such discussions can turn into competitions of proving others wrong on some secondary point meant to illustrate a main idea, and then the idea gets lost. Unless I'm wrong, that is what risks happening here.

I think you'll find Cb chords to be quite a common animal. You might have more trouble locating an Fb, but I'm reasonably confident you COULD find one.

Hi KeyString,

Here are those challengers you missed:







I attempt to negotiate, so I do not need to dig too deeply - I hate research!


Gary rises to the occasion, and in a couple of minutes locates an example, proving how trivial it is:


A few minutes later, Rob comes up with a reference from this very Forum.


And, alas, another opportunity to win a couple of wagers has fallen by the wayside - I the sad victim of too many people knowing too much information.

Let us hope that Tango eventually does learn to construct those troublesome ninth chords. Maybe if he were to stick with his own thread a little longer . . . . ?

If Tango doesn't want to Tango with the rest of us, that is his (or her) loss. As I said before, someone sets things in motion. If that person disappears and we have fun with the topic, not loss for US!

Ed, I follow the progression in the discussion of these two chords: Fb9 and Cb9 that you have listed. I was following that level of it all along. But my thinking was that it's not about these two chords: that the real point was that there are two worlds requiring two views, and that the "challenges" were originally simply a means of illustrating this. Of course I may be wrong, and it may actually have been a contest. It's not the first time that I've been wrong.

Meanwhile you have a valid point about hit and run questions. Where is the asker?

He got a adequate answer early in the thread. Perhaps he isn't interested in whether it SHOULD be called Fb9.

I just want to point out that I meant to make no challenges!

I was simply sharing my experience, based on my memory. And since my memory is very faulty, with such things as an Fb chord I go on experience only, then I check. I was going on the assumption that in general more practical people try to stay away from chords that would not be normal triads in a standard key.

Normally the key of Cb major is avoided in favor of B major. Since Fb is the IV of Cb, it is going to be rare in something that does not modulate or have a lot of chromatic movement. As a I chord, same thing. Fb is a rather exotic key, even for a short modulation. And as a V chord, it would be V or V7 of the nasty key of Bbb - NINE flats.

I have enjoyed this thread - it has legs. It is a good illustration that what you call a chord depends on what "school" you're in at the time.

And, of course, just as the chord on the b6 - Ab - is a common chord in the key of C major, Fb is the equivalent in Ab major - a perfectly "standard" key. The only question is whether to "misspell" it in the interests of convenience.

I agree, Fb would be an unusual key to modulate TO. But using the chord doesn't imply a modulation!

Cb is indeed more common as a chord than as a key. But I've known it happen!

I have enjoyed it too. As I have said elsewhere, I have one foot one one world "traditional/classical" but the other in arranging, and there are some suprising overlaps from one world to the other.

This point was precisely what I was thinking of. Moving into the "classical" area for a moment, a German 6th chord in your key of Ab is a deliberately misspelled E7 chord, spelled Fb Ab Cb ***D*** and in Bach would move to Eb Ab C Eb, Ab/Eb, a I 6/4 chord, then it would resolve. We would have to find it in the WTC though, because Ab major sounded horrendous in mean tone or anything close to it.

Just exactly what a modulation is gets tricky, because it's not only about where we choose to go but also how long we plan to stay there. For instance, no matter what key we are in (key signature), a V7 to I movement in any other key COULD signal a temporay key change that will last for 1 second or several minutes.

Going back to the Ipanema example, if someone decided to play it in Bb instead of F, not at all an unusal key, then the bridge will start Cbmaj7 to Fb9 then Bm9 to G7 or so. You could switch to Bmaj7 to E9, and I would, but the other shows a movement to b2 (new tone center) rather than #1.

As for pieces written in Cb major, starting and ending in that key, I can't think of a single example, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I can't imagine a "symphony in Cb major", and I can't think of any pop tune in that key. But I have seen standards in Gb and Db.

I wanted to bring that part out, especially for those of us who are students. Originally I intended to lurk. This was almost a subtheme that popped up for a short time and then lowered its head again but it seemed extremely important. My own schooling went more along the "classical" line and I'm far from done with it but at some point I started encountering this "other" world. What was being said here made a lot of sense to me. Namely that people playing by ear and manipulating music in a particular way are going to need some different conventions here and there. Meanwhile sound is sound: "A rose by any other name" and all that.

My thought is that if a student is only used to one OR the other, then this could get confusing in the sense of trying to decide which one is right. So the fact that there is more than one way of seeing things, each suitable in a particular context, is not a small thing.

A classicist might want the chord under discussion to be named as some flavour of Augmented 6th (a description that always bemused me until I discovered the more functional description as the b5 substitution for a secondary dominant.) But surely the point is that if I (wearing my commercial music hat) want to refer to a "German 6th" I must get it right, not confused with an Italian or French 6th. Likewise, if (wearing my classical robes) I should stray into chord symbol territory, I must not re-define "Cmaj9" as having other than the accepted meaning.

Exactly! I think from a musicianship standpoint, a student (that would be me) is well served by being aware of these differences, and when and where to use them.

0:38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6K_IuBsRM4

Ab7 to G. Key of C minor. Italian 6th to V to i.

Technically an "Italian 6th" because there is no 5th in the Ab7 chord.

But the Ab7 chord, going to G, doesn't have to be going to V. It can just as easily go to I, so then it would have to be some kind of "bII7" chord, and it's outside of traditional RNs. And it doesn't matter if it is altered by flatting the 5, Ab7-5, Ab B Db F#, to G (I).

This kind of analysis drives me NUTS. So I absolutely hate the terms "German 6th", "French 6th", "Italian 6th". I feel like I have to explain them to students to protect them from theory geeks who care more about what things are called than where they go!

What I prefer: EXPANDING fake dominant. You have something that sounds like a dominant 7 chord, or one with an altered tone, then it just opens up. It's typically the outside that does that, and the spelling is just the most convenient. Db7, traditionally, is most likely to go to Gb. Take the same chord, open it up so that the root goes DOWN and the 7 goes UP and you have something that works in any kind of music. Db F Ab Cb to C ** ** C. It doesn't matter if it is C F A C, C F Ab C, C E G C or something more exotic.

Then respell to Db F Ab B because it is clearer notation.

Better still, simply analyse the tensions within the chord, and where they might resolve to. All harmony is counterpoint. Or the othrt way around. Or something!

That's how I see it too. For me it's all about:

1) Where do we start.
2) Where are we going, and how do we get there?
3) Where are we now, and where do we want to go next?

To me any chord has no meaning by itself. It's all about the movement, context.

Tension in chords - chord substitutions - resolution - voice leading w/ chords.