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#1879729 - 04/14/12 08:14 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: dmd]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 650
Originally Posted By: dmd
Originally Posted By: 36251
I was checking comparison on Youtube and Vintage D screenshot was Kontakt. Does that mean besides Galaxy Vingage D and soundcard I also have to purchase Kontakt - isn't that another $500?


No. Galaxy Vintage D comes with the "runtime" version of Kontakt. It isn't the fullblown version but it works fine.
I just went down to Guitar Center to ask a few questions. So they're saying you need a DAW to run a VST. You're telling me Galaxy Vintage D plays through Runtime Kontakt, which is a simple version of a DAW?

What do people use for external sound card? If I buy Galaxy pianos with runtime Kontakt, can I then buy a VST electric piano and run it also through the same runtime?


Edited by 36251 (04/14/12 09:13 PM)
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AvantGrand N2, FP-4, Gallien-Krueger MK & MP

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#1879749 - 04/14/12 09:19 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: 36251]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: 36251
I just went down to Guitar Center to ask a few questions. So they're saying you need a DAW to run a VST. You're telling me Galaxy Vintage D plays through Runtime Kontakt, which is a simple version of a DAW?


You don't a DAW you need a host. Stand alone host, no DAW needed. Or plugin host that runs from within a DAW.
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
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#1879752 - 04/14/12 09:20 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
USB and firewire are both more than fast enough for both MIDI and audio. In fact, most audio interfaces are USB 1.0. Like, the one we used back in the 1990's. Firewire has been preferred historically in audio/video applications not so much because of throughput but beacause it streams without sputtering. That is, the maximum latency is lower or something. But anyway, with recent versions of USB and Firewire it isn't a big deal as far as I know.

The whole situation with workstation audio is really obnoxious, but here's how it works:

Vintage D is a plugin for Kontakt. Kontakt has a runtime version that just plays live that comes with Vintage D and is free. You can't do simple things like record what you are playing or play a MIDI file, but you can play your piano. I can't actually figure out what the paid version of Kontakt does that the free one will not. It seems silly to me that it costs a lot of money.

Kontakt (including the free version), in turn, can be a plugin for a VST host, which will allow you to record audio or midi and play midi files. That kind of thing. There are some VST hosts that are free, though I have yet to find a good one that will both play and record audio and midi for free. Most are cheap. The best free ones I've seen are minihost and MultiTrackStudio.

There are other more advanced DAW software as well, but I don't use them. Well, I guess I use audacity for modifying wav files and rendering them to mp3.

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#1879801 - 04/14/12 11:22 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 563
Originally Posted By: pianojohnw
... i prefer the playability of it to ivory 2 and end up playing it more, the digital piano I have is a Kawai cl25, however I need a good piano sound for recording some solo piano pieces and most digital piano wont give me the sound i want to make a good piano recording, plus I unfortunatly dont have the money for a new digital piano with a better inbuilt sound, the problem ive found with ivory 2 is that it really doesnt give good ff, or pp dynamics or plays to high in volume in soft passages and lacks in the powerful bass, which to me makes the playability not very good as I cant get lots of dynamics in my recordings, it has a lovely piano sound in my opinion but lacks in important areas to me. looking at the demos on east west site they seem to have good dynamics and a powerful bass, and good ff dynamics however I dont want to pay out money if this isnt the case.

Let's try to understand your problem and fix it.

You said Ivory 2 "doesnt give good ff, ..."

Is the problem you perceive that Ivory 2 doesn't play loud enough when you play ff, or that you don't like the timbre of the sound when you play ff? What are the MIDI values that your keyboard typically produces when you are playing ff? Did you adjust the velocity curve of Ivory 2 (or an external program) to produce velocity of values in the 115-127 range when you play ff?

"...or pp dynamics or plays to high in volume in soft passages"."

You are apparently saying Ivory 2 is too loud when you play pp. So what are the typical MIDI values your keyboard produces when you are playing pp? Did you adjust the velocity curve in Ivory 2 (or an external program) to make the MIDI values smaller when you play pp?

If you don't like the rate of transition in the pp or ff range then adjust the Velocity Curve shape. In Ivory II you can adjust the shape and curvature of the velocity curve, so it is more sensitive to small changes in velocity near the pp end of the dynamic range or near the ff end. Have you adjusted that?

After you have adjusted the velocity curves (or are sure they are covering the MIDI range with the shape you want) you can then change the dynamic range control in Ivory II to get just about whatever dynamic range you want between pp and ff. Have you adjusted the dynamic range control (which varies from 0 to 60 dB) after you set the velocity curve correctly? You would typically set it higher for classical music where you want a wider loudness range between pp and ff.

" ... and lacks in the powerful bass,"

Have you adjusted the EQ in Ivory II? There is low shelf control that can be used to make the bass boom or disappear, or do anything in between. You can set the cutoff frequency and gain in the lower shelf region (there is also a parametric EQ band and a high frequency shelf as well).

If these suggestions don't address what you consider playability issues, then tell us what else bothers you related to playability and I'm sure one of us here can help you address other concerns as well.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1879892 - 04/15/12 06:04 AM Re: Best piano VST [Re: Melodialworks Music]
vegasE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 226
Loc: Sydney, AU
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: 36251
I just went down to Guitar Center to ask a few questions. So they're saying you need a DAW to run a VST. You're telling me Galaxy Vintage D plays through Runtime Kontakt, which is a simple version of a DAW?


You don't a DAW you need a host. Stand alone host, no DAW needed. Or plugin host that runs from within a DAW.


I prob have the simplest setup. I use the Kontakt Player that came with Vintage D. Runs on my laptop (i5, 4GB, 7400rpm HHD) with Asio4All driver through headphone output into my Senn 518's.

Velocity curves are matched - Normal (MP8ii) to default/linear (VinD). Only bit of mucking around i did was with the Asio4All driver settings to get the sound happening through the headphones. But that was rather quick. No pops, crackles, drop outs. So it would seem i have been rather lucky.

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#1879912 - 04/15/12 07:31 AM Re: Best piano VST [Re: vegasE]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 650
Originally Posted By: vegasE
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: 36251
I just went down to Guitar Center to ask a few questions. So they're saying you need a DAW to run a VST. You're telling me Galaxy Vintage D plays through Runtime Kontakt, which is a simple version of a DAW?


You don't a DAW you need a host. Stand alone host, no DAW needed. Or plugin host that runs from within a DAW.


I prob have the simplest setup. I use the Kontakt Player that came with Vintage D. Runs on my laptop (i5, 4GB, 7400rpm HHD) with Asio4All driver through headphone output into my Senn 518's.

Velocity curves are matched - Normal (MP8ii) to default/linear (VinD). Only bit of mucking around i did was with the Asio4All driver settings to get the sound happening through the headphones. But that was rather quick. No pops, crackles, drop outs. So it would seem i have been rather lucky.
How do you connect MIDI? I'm getting closer to understanding this but I'm assuming I need a external box for MIDI, line outs to amp, line ins to PC?
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AvantGrand N2, FP-4, Gallien-Krueger MK & MP

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#1879915 - 04/15/12 07:41 AM Re: Best piano VST [Re: gvfarns]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I can't actually figure out what the paid version of Kontakt does that the free one will not. It seems silly to me that it costs a lot of money.


Kontakt is a full blown sampling software. The guys who made Vintage D used it for this exact purpose. That basically means it has all that functionality that is expected of such a product like sample slicing, time stretching, equalizing and organizing all the samples into one package that can be played on a keyboard and provides adjustable parameters through a neat interface to the end user. The price is certainly justified.

Kontakt Player is just a product to play these saved sample sets so the many people who don't need to sample their own sounds get to use all these "powered by Kontakt" instruments. It is not a DAW and also no VST host. Actually the Kontakt Player is itself a VST that can be played and recorded inside a DAW. Its standalone mode exists merely for convenience.

If you need a free DAW/VST host you could try Reaper.

http://www.reaper.fm

Hmm actually, it doesn't seem to be free anymore. But it's cheap.


Edited by Gigantoad (04/15/12 07:53 AM)

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#1879918 - 04/15/12 08:06 AM Re: Best piano VST [Re: 36251]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3675
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: 36251
How do you connect MIDI? I'm getting closer to understanding this but I'm assuming I need a external box for MIDI, line outs to amp, line ins to PC?

Have a look here: Piano Wiring
I use the Presonus Audiobox. There are other similar boxes from M-audio and others. They provide the MIDI input you need, and also a sound card that substitutes for the computer's sound card. (It generally performs better than a computer sound card: better sound quality and lower latency.)

Installation is simple:
1. Plug the Audiobox's USB cable into the computer and install the driver from the CD.
2. Run a MIDI cable from the Audiobox to your piano.
3. Run cables from the Audiobox's audio outputs to your sound system.
4. Open your VST or Kontakt software:
. . a. Go to the MIDI settings and select the Presonus/Audiobox as your MIDI input.
. . b. Go to the ASIO settings and select the Presonus/Audiobox ASIO device.

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#1879924 - 04/15/12 08:28 AM Re: Best piano VST [Re: MacMacMac]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 650
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Originally Posted By: 36251
How do you connect MIDI? I'm getting closer to understanding this but I'm assuming I need a external box for MIDI, line outs to amp, line ins to PC?

Have a look here: Piano Wiring
I use the Presonus Audiobox. There are other similar boxes from M-audio and others. They provide the MIDI input you need, and also a sound card that substitutes for the computer's sound card. (It generally performs better than a computer sound card: better sound quality and lower latency.)

Installation is simple:
1. Plug the Audiobox's USB cable into the computer and install the driver from the CD.
2. Run a MIDI cable from the Audiobox to your piano.
3. Run cables from the Audiobox's audio outputs to your sound system.
4. Open your VST or Kontakt software:
. . a. Go to the MIDI settings and select the Presonus/Audiobox as your MIDI input.
. . b. Go to the ASIO settings and select the Presonus/Audiobox ASIO device.
Did you research this one as being the best for the money; low latency? I was just checking reviews and most comments were positive.
_________________________
AvantGrand N2, FP-4, Gallien-Krueger MK & MP

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#1879937 - 04/15/12 09:08 AM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3675
Loc: North Carolina
I read postings (here and elsewhere) about the Presonus Audiobox and the M-Audio Fast Track. Both seemed good. Both will provide suitably low latency.

I got the Presonus because I found it for $71 used on ebay (vs. $150 new).
The M-Audio was around $100 used on ebay (vs. $200 new).

Either would suit, so I went for the lower price.

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#1880072 - 04/15/12 03:17 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
I use the Presonus Audiobox and it performs very well.
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1880160 - 04/15/12 07:21 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 650
I just purchased Galaxy Vintage D from Amazon for $139. I have a friend with an analog/digital interface so I'm going to wait to find a good deal.

Is it true I won't be able to use unless I purchase an iLok? What do u'all think of this aspect?
_________________________
AvantGrand N2, FP-4, Gallien-Krueger MK & MP

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#1880172 - 04/15/12 07:39 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3675
Loc: North Carolina
Ivory requires an Ilok.
Galaxy does not.

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#1880176 - 04/15/12 07:52 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: MacMacMac]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 650
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Ivory requires and Ilok.
Galaxy does not.
more good news. With piracy I understand why the Ilok exists but I can't understand why you'll pay over $300 for Ivory and still have to get an Ilok.

I already asked this question but not sure if I understood the answer. Can I buy a Rhodes VST and play it through Kontakt player that comes with Vintage D?


Edited by 36251 (04/15/12 07:53 PM)
_________________________
AvantGrand N2, FP-4, Gallien-Krueger MK & MP

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#1880216 - 04/15/12 09:02 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: 36251]
vegasE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 226
Loc: Sydney, AU
Originally Posted By: 36251
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Ivory requires and Ilok.
Galaxy does not.
more good news. With piracy I understand why the Ilok exists but I can't understand why you'll pay over $300 for Ivory and still have to get an Ilok.

I already asked this question but not sure if I understood the answer. Can I buy a Rhodes VST and play it through Kontakt player that comes with Vintage D?

As Macx3 said, an iLok is not required for Galaxy. The ilok is the main reason i didnt bother with Ivory. There's been some discussion regarding the ilok before. Some (like me) hate the idea of the ilok. Others aren't fussed.

Originally Posted By: 36251
How do you connect MIDI? I'm getting closer to understanding this but I'm assuming I need a external box for MIDI, line outs to amp, line ins to PC?


I have connected the MP8ii to my laptop via USB cable. I also bought a midi-to-usb cable for $10 but don't use it.
I get between 6-8ms overall latency with my setup. Anything under 10ms is really not noticable (not to me anyway). I would try the direct connection first if possible. See if that works for you before buying the external box. A member recently found out his latency problems were due to his Presonus box and when he (or she? - can't tell on here) bypassed the external box the lantecy dropped right down. It would all come down to what you want to do with the sound i suppose.

Rhodes VST? Not sure. Others here should be able to answer that for you.

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#1880223 - 04/15/12 09:15 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Kontakt classes libraries as affiliated with NI and not. The full version of Kontakt will play anything. The free Kontakt player will only play affiliated VST's. Galaxy is one of these. So are the NI pianos, obviously. Others it's not so clear. I'm not sure which Rhodes piano you are talking about, but most likely if it says it "requires kontakt" rather than "comes with a free player," which turns out to be kontakt, it will not work with the free version.

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#1880228 - 04/15/12 09:26 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: 36251]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 563
Originally Posted By: 36251
I already asked this question but not sure if I understood the answer. Can I buy a Rhodes VST and play it through Kontakt player that comes with Vintage D?

I believe this is what you are looking for. Fender-Rhodes Mark 1

http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/p...1/?content=1138
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Ravenscroft 275, True Keys American D, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1880765 - 04/16/12 07:19 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
Tack Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/10
Posts: 66
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: pianojohnw
Im currently using ivory 2 italian grand but im not all that impressed, it has nice sound but i just cant play really soft and load.

I'll just echo my support for Galaxy's Vintage D. I tend to play pieces that focus on the softer dynamics and I find I'm able to be quite expressive with Galaxy's Vintage D, whereas I found it completely impossible with Synthogy's Italian Grand and Bosendorfer, and to a lesser extent even the Yamaha. Galaxy's Vintage D has a pretty wide dynamic range and it suits my playing better.

The engine is not without bugs, I hate to say. It doesn't stop me from using it for casual playing, but if I did more recording I'd probably be less inclined to recommend it. (At least, it would require tweaking the MIDI after recording to avoid the problem.)

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#1880780 - 04/16/12 07:51 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 650
I like to hear more about choices for audio interfaces. I can find positive and negative reviews for Presonus Audiobox or M-Audio Fast Track. Then there was a comment in this thread which said I might not even need one of these.

Can anyone put me over the edge. I glad to of found the Vintage D software. I've enjoyed listening to examples on YouTube.

I'm thankful for those who have gone before me and have helped me make my decisions.

I doing this for live playing and hope it all works out.
_________________________
AvantGrand N2, FP-4, Gallien-Krueger MK & MP

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#1880836 - 04/16/12 10:18 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
I can discuss two other audio interfaces:

1. Behringer UCA202. Incredibly cheap. Rock solid drivers (class compliant, so you may not even need drivers). I used one of these for some time and liked it well. I doesn't have balanced input/output, which I wanted because I had a ground loop issue. It also doesn't have an analog volume control. And it doesn't have 24 bit sound. In a pinch, and on a budget, it's a winner.

2. Focusrite 2i2. This is the one I currently use. Excellent hardware. It compares to the presonus and m-audio except that it features USB 2.0 and lacks MIDI-IN. If you are using a USB cable for MIDI, like I am, it can be a good option. The only downside is that I have found the drivers under windows XP to be more than just a little finicky. I actually use ASIO4ALL instead of the native drivers with mine because they were so bad. When it works, though, it's really nicely designed and puts out great sound.

Unfortunately almost all USB audio interfaces (if not all) have some issues with the drivers--just check the reviews. Apparently it's a hard thing to do well or something. Either that or these companies don't hire very good programmers.


Edited by gvfarns (04/16/12 10:21 PM)

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#1880852 - 04/16/12 10:50 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: Tack]
lgarcia Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/13/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Chicago, Illinois USA
"Dynamic range" are the correct words, all piano vst's no matter the company who did the process of sampling all came from a certain piano model, manufacturer etc. etc. I had just tried the recent one called blue and it lacks the dynamic range. Alicia's keys has a nice key per key sound because it is a one of a kind model within the Yamaha's but lacks the dynamic range. Same for all the pianos from the Imperfect Samples which are all nice, organic, natural sound but lack the dynamic range. By the end of the year there will be more than five new upgrades from different companies that market the "best sounding piano vst" but please not another Steinway Model D. I've kept the Art Vista for what it is, a model B. And to end my rambling, "And the winner by TKO is Galaxy Vintage D in the Heavy Weight category". If I had the bucks, I would sample a Baldwin, but that is just a cartoon story that I made up and in my imagination reality is far from being true.

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#1880856 - 04/16/12 10:57 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3675
Loc: North Carolina
Which drivers have problems? I've had not a problem with the Presonus. Both it's MIDI in and audio out pots work continuously, without fail. (I'm running Windows XP.)

It comes up clean on boot, and also after coming up from sleep mode. Not a single problem.

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#1881154 - 04/17/12 12:11 PM Re: Best piano VST [Re: pianojohnw]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 650
I have a friend who uses a Native Instruments Traktor Audio 2 compact USB DJ audio interface. He uses all USB and no MIDI and said it works great with low latency. I just curious to hear what people think of this solution?
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