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Just curious - for you techs that maintain concert pianos (stick with 9 footers and prefer the SS-D but that should not matter much) that are performed on regular - when maestro wants A4=442 and your piano has been rock solid at A4=440 most of its life, what is your approach to getting it to A4=442 and rock solid - lets say within 24 hours. Do you find that you are successful and the piano is just as stable at the new pitch and your confidence that nothing will change for performance is high?

For the most part at our college, we refuse to raise it. Our philosophy is, just because they want it, doesn't mean, they get it.

I know many techs that have said yes, it's at 442 when it was actually tuned to 440. They tuned up their instruments as always, said that the piano sounded marvelous, never knew the difference and the performance went on as scheduled and everyone was happy....

My personal thought is that A/440 is the standard HERE in the USA. That is what is generally accepted and that is what we tune it at.

Have we once in a while raised it above? Yes. But only when I am told by the powers that be, to do so which is rare. I will do it then, but only then.

I say this because as you mentioned I wind up spending more time trying to get it to stay put than what it's worth. Not only that but as soon as they are done with their venue, I have to lower it back down again to A/440 for the next person that comes along creating for me, the same problems. Playing around more with pitch adjustments and therefore, stability than anything else. So, all in all, I prefer A/440 myself.

Am I successful at getting stability in that short amount of time, yes. Is it as stable as it was? For the most part yes but, there are times I have to fight with it for a while first before it will become stable. If it were not raised up to 442 in the first place, stability would be much better and it would be much easier on the technicians "back" overall as well.

Many here siply tune to 441..

But if 442 or 43 is asked, it is done with a tuning 24 hrs before and a new one the morning of the concert, plus a tuning after rehearsal (if it is for concert). For a studio you need to begin 2 days before the day.

But I have seen cases where the pitch was changed just before the rehearsal (with concert the second day) and it was acceptable.

Going back to the lower pitch is indeed another problem, many customers are not ready to pay for..

But generally speaking the stability (long term) is not as much a problem as one believe, assuming the strings are not 15 or 20 years old.

bend manipulations, and bridge setting... aint so much trouble, really. just a few tunings more ...

Thanks Jerry,
Believe me, I have made those arguements - even suggested a rental.
The previous tech was much more adament about than I.
The powers that be have won out and I must do it or let someone else do it. I will get paid well enough for the work but no matter what happens, if there is a complaint - my name is on it - much more important than the money - and there is no excuse in the world that would divert the fault.
Do you think that maestro and his big city philharmonic would notice if I left it at 440? It is very tempting - can I fool an entire orchestra?

Thank you Isaac,
My sehedule is a pitch raise and tuning the day before and tune the next morning followed by touch up/tune as required after rehearsal - much the same as you have described.
The piano is about 7 years old and the performance is a concert.
I believe that after the first pitch raise and tuning, wherever the pitch settles out the next day I will leave it alone - if it is 441 or 441.5 ok.
You mentioned the issues with lowering pitch, I have a similar tuning schedule the next week for a jazz concert. I am a bit more concerned about that because in my experinece, jazz artists tend to notice tuning issues more than classical artists.

For 2 Hz dont try to PR, tune directly with some overpull in the treble 5/6 octave. just a second pass later, next morning should be OK. if you aim for 441,5 tune at 443 for instance I dont know if you use an EDT) generally speaking the high treble can be tuned without much extra overpull (not as much as what EDt propose, in my memory)

Trying to use the sustain pedal a lot during tuning helps strings to render faster. the goodie use by the tech in the movie "Pianomania" may help a lot for that (even if I dont believe it is the purpose of the thing )http://youtu.be/m6fDuUw6yXE (1:20...)

Indeed when you will lower the pitch there will be some instability so there you will need a tuning a few days before the second concert... With 7 years old strings that should be OK. sometime we are surprized after bringing down the piano there a few days later it is not as nice as we expect, but if you have a week before the next concert... Also, the piano should appreciate coming back to its original tuning.

Once I've tuned A49 at 442, while all other note sin the temperament wher tuned in too lage 5ths to finish on the <A3 around 441 then and progressively tuning too large 5ths I get back to the original tuning in the basses ASAP, same cheat in the treble the other way (I tuned really 2 octaves probably) indeed it was not for a concert but for a rehearseal and they asked me for the pitch change 20 minutes before !

It was... playeable without absolutely horrible harmonies ...

just enough so they can work and not complain. (Orchestra and soloist)

One of my colleagues used to say " if anything... tune the A !)

Yes I do think you can fool them Gene, if they do not check it with an ETD. Their own ears cannot tell them "just exactly what pitch the piano is at without the help of a machine." Anymore than we can tell exactly where it is at without the help of a tuning fork or an ETD.

People that have perfect pitch, contrary to what many tend to believe, cannot hear the difference between 442 and 441 and 440. While that is sometimes debatable by people that have NOT attended Isaac Sadigursky's class on "perfect pitch" it becomes a certain fact after you have been to his class which he taught again this past year I do believe, at the convention. Very interesting class if you have never seen it.

I would be pretty careful about passing off 440 as 442. There are people who can tell, I've seen it. Of course there are many who can't so you might get away with it, but imagine the egg on your face if you're caught. Better to either outright refuse, or go ahead and do the three tunings up and three+ tunings back down to 440 and charge for every tuning.

OH , more than a few can hear if the pitch is lower than expected, particularely if they ask for an unusual pitch this is for a reason, samples, fixed pitch instruments, 2 Hz is very audible, 1 Hz way less)

Perfect pitch does mean you can sing a 440, or 42 depending on what you are used to, it works sometime better sometime less, but musicians that have perfect pitch are used to hear precisely enough to hear "near 440" or "near 442"
Also, the piano is sounding differently, this also can be recognized.

They will accept 441 , generally speaking even if they hear it is a little low. That is yet nice enough, and we are there in a "grey zone"... Most musicians are also aware of the problem it cause us to change the pitch on a piano..

All depends also of the use intended. I find it useful to ask "at what point the asked pitch is important", that offer possibility to work with less stress and sometimes it is discovered that simply someone asked for a pitch without knowing exactly ...

Jerry, I know Isaac Sadigurski and have taken several of his classes - I missed the perfect pitch however - I believe you.
It is beyond my understanding - why do you suppose that some musicians ask for 442? They must get some advantage either real or precieved.
Isaac, I like the idea of using the sustain pedal during tuning for string rendering.
I will approach the tuning as you suggest - without overpull.
I have the scale for a stock Hamburg SS-D (probably the same as the New York SS-D) and from note #84 up the break points are already in the danger zone from 62% to 72% - this is for A-440. I don't know what the extra 8 cents will do in regard to tension but I don't like it - these top notes will likely get a bit more than 8 cents.

ALso, the piano slightly high pitched would be accepted more easily by the Jazz musicians that,n the opposite.



Just playing with the room temperature you can see changes, interesting.. I once helped a concert to happen in a very cold church between an organ (that was then too low) and a grand concert (that was probably pithed 443 or more).

I did not really tune in that occasion, (not possible, too far, not enough time) but told them by phone to immediately put heaters near the instruments and begin to raise the temperature.

Then a hour later the 2 instruments could play together, and in any case the musician's stress lowered enough so they even heard them almost at the same pitch, which was probably not the case.

the piano had a small radiator, and they installed 2 large heaters between the organ and the piano (they told me) . I had a little experience in those situations for tuning a small organ and a harpsichord together for series of concerts generally in churches.

(that is when I discovered that VT100 could not make 3 "pure thirds" as asked for mesotonian tuning. THe 3ds tuned by ear sounded better on the harpsichord and the organ (for whatever reason...)

Gene, in your scaling evaluation the breaking strain is most probably lowered by 20% before the limit is computed, so there is yet room for tension, usually it raise to 80% of the lowered BS at note 85 or so but for 442 Hz (if memory serves but this is generally the rules followed but some rare brands that raise soon in the mediums)

Steinways can be tuned as high as 445, not to say it is good to do so, but the strings are yet within their elastic zone for what I understand there.

WHen an usual pitch is asked there is a reason for generally, even, a false reason eventually. The trick is to find who ask for that and ask why...

I think they like what they perceive to be, the "sharper sound". To them, the tonal qualities or characteristics are changed to the better by increasing the tension on the wires. Also, some say they can reach the notes easier this way.

Kamin,

Issac has, perfect pitch. During his class, he asks for as many people who dare, to come up to tune one and only one string on piano to what their perfect pitch tells them. "take your time," he says. Issac has already tuned that piano as perfectly as it can be tuned. He then saves the tuning onto an ETD to compare later, just how far OFF that persons perfect pitch actually is.

In one class, we had 12 people come up, all of them were tuners. Each one tuned the string as perfectly as they could get it. When everyone was finished, (of course, nobody could tune a string that another person had already tuned so he kept track of all of this) Issac went over to the piano. With his ETD, he showed how one person tuned his note 1/4 of a tone flat of A/440.

Another tuned it 1/4 of a tone sharp of 440. Another tuned at 445, 443, 438, 433, 437, they were all over the map which was his entire point. Only one person got it exact. His response to that? "You were lucky. If I had you do another note, you would more than likely be as off as the rest of them are."

While you may be able to sing what you think, is A/440, you could actually be singing A/435 or 445. Who is to know if that person is right or wrong anyway? Perfect pitch, is not, perfect. I walked away from this class thinking just how imperfect it really is.


I highly recommend his class. At the convention in Kansas City, I sat with Issac in a restaurant between classes. We spoke of his class and how interesting it was. He said, "it is almost impossible to prove to someone that strongly thinks the opposite of what we do, unless we show them, which is what I do in my class," he said. "I prove it to them instead."

Anyway, I refuse most of the time to put it anywhere else but, A/440. If they like it brighter, turn up the volume.

I was told, "I don't need the piano right at A440; just don't be flat." I haven't had a complaint in over 12 years.

I appreciate all of the comments.
Reminds me of an incident quite a while ago where I tuned for an outside event at a winery in the Napa Valley - a Sauter 185 - it was outside under a tent and all day the temperature was in the high 90's - I let the pitch float and was not too concerned - just kept the intervals and unisons sounding as good as possible. Late afternoon early evening about a couple hours before performance the fog rolled in and the temperature fell to around 50 degrees. I did not check pitch but I bet it was around 442 or maybe higher. Did not get a complaint. Probably because I kept all the unisons dead on. The intervals across the break were really bad.

Jerry I am unsure to what it was supposed to prove, but tuners are used to feel/hear how much tension is in the string at A 438 _442 and relates it to the pitch ( I would not say precisely at 2-3 Hz, but relatively well yet, that seem to be proved with the kind of experience you had)

I often try to tune the first string at my usual pitch (which is 442, so to say) but even if it is some time dead on it can be off as you say up to a semi tone some day(rarely !)

But this is the "tuner's perfect pitch" , If I was to simply SING the A , I would generally sing it better than I tune it.

I dont understand what did you in the test, if any other note than the A is tuned there is a lot of variations possibles.

When I try to get my A right on a piano without a fork (that I use anyway afterthat) I think of A, I hear the A in my brain then I tune the string at the piano and while tuning the string I "hear" another referent which is probably what I learned to recognize as a A 440 or whatever, on a piano, as a tuner. Would it be another instrument I would be comparing with a "singed" A in my brain, but on a piano, my tuner's experience take the precedence

I think we are having a misunderstanding here. You're saying that we should be able to "feel/hear/ how much tension is in the string at A/438-442?" Or, that we are used to hearing it at that pitch or tension? If we could feel it, there wouldn't be so many broken strings from tuners putting the hammer on the wrong tuning pin...

In the test, the tuners were given the choice to tune whatever note they wanted so long as it was not the same note as the other tuners had chosen. So, A-4, B-4, G-4, C-5, C-4, (one string only on each note) whichever string they felt like tuning, they could pick freely.

Another point that Issac S., made was that if we all tried tuning the entire piano with our perfect pitch, it would sound absolutely horrible.

Ok i get it and agree. But to me so called perfect pitch only relates to the A 440. Then as tuners we are used to recognize the tone ofthe string when it is at pitch.

Then, perfect could mean also recognizing the note or tonality played. This works more often in my opinion. and of course the precision level is not really the question there.
I have been trained to sing a A 440 daily when I was very young. So I cannot tell about a gift. While i was said I had it while my father did not...

I ve been trying tuning chromatically.. After one octave I am almost half tone above. If I where more attentive I could probably limit the error to a quarter tone.

Thats incredibly good results Kamin. I doubt most aural tuners could get within a quarter tone using a cycle of tuning of up a fifth and back a fourth exclusively to get to the octave.

As for the "perfect pitch" ability or facsimile to it....There are classes in Japan now where they are teaching it to young children with amazing success rate. This would imply that it is not a "gift". They had discovered that almost all people are born with the ability but around the age of 5 we are taught to lose it and replace it with comparative analysis. Languages, math, and some other subjects children begin to learn at this age requires a process that is not compatable to the process of perfect pitch assesment. Those people who retain the ability have somehow managed to preserve the process they were born with but researchers have not determined precisely how they do this.

Perfect???? That's a very strange word when it comes to pianos. What does perfect mean? Does a tempered tuning of a perfect 5th render it imperfect?

What Jerry said. At the colleges I tune for, the concert grand does not go above 440.

Instruments build for European market are designed for 442 Hz (winds, xylo, pianos, etc)

Instruments for the US market are made for 440 Hz, but I doubt (to be verified) any change in scaling in the pianos intended for exportation to USA.

The pitch can be 440 or 442, does not bother me, iH raises a tad with lower pitch, tone "straighten a tad at higher pitches)

Japanese pianos designed to 442 Hz (I asked a few years ago) .

difference in tension is not that large , if memory serves around (250 N) wire behaviour is slighly changing mechanically, because of more elasticity when it raise toward the elastic limit.

change in BS percentage is small also.

But indeed changing pitch on a piano used to one is a nonsense.


There is a method that can be used to stabilize wire and that was designed by Klaus Fenner (for what I know)
The first 4 notes of the plain wire section are raised A FULL MAJOR THIRD, then 4 notes an octave above a minor third, same process up to the high treble wher the wire is "only" raised a semi tone !

After 8 hours the wire have lost all extra softness and have changed in tone. It is said to be then stable as if it where 4 years old. Sme process is then applied to the next 4 notes with slighly less tension (the first 4 notes where first tuned to normal pitch)

I wonder if SHimmel was not using that process some 15 years ago, I seem to recognize that in the way their strings where sounding. it takes 3 x 8 hours to have all the plain wire treated.

I find the tone get too bland and denatures, with a possibility for false beats) so I have used that once only, but no string broke, so to say.
The idea is also chasing for an extra annealing due to the effort asked to the steel, not sure it is the case.

If pianos are meant to be tuned to A/442 in your country and some others, then so be it. I do not have a problem with that at all.

If they are meant to be tuned at A/440 like in my country, also, so be it. We tune it where ours will be, you tune yours where yours will be and accept it at that.

In my experience, in music schools, the pitch is around 443 in Septemeber, 440 in Winter.

I only lowered in september once, and then during winter I had to PR 2 Hz
SO pitch is something that cannot be maintened totally, unless hygrometry control is very good.

That is interesting, in any case it have to be a cultural process I believe. I'll make the experiment on one string and will record it, then I will post it on the Internet.

When going up I tend to make too large semi tones, probably the same happen if I go from top note to lower note.

PS You are exagerating when saying that making a full 4th and 5th sequence will lend to 1/4 tone mistake, it could but not when a professional tuner tune the intervals ( I will record that experiment also, but ther "perfect pitch" is not related)

Doing that cycle will produce a resulting octave of 12 accumulative errors Issac. Only 2 cents is needed on each one to get a 1/4 tone difference in the end. If one is very familiar with that particular pianos' SBI rates I presume with practice they could get quite close on the octave. I used to think that the laws of averages would apply on errors for SBI's, such that half might be a touch slow and half might be a touch fast beating. In practice, I think the majority of the same intervals would be either be a touch too fast or vice versa.

Well, I've done the experience and recorded it.

To tune an octave and the A without any external reference, I did not cheat, did not listen the radio before entering the shop, did not listen to any piano, then I lowered one string by note on the A3 A4 octave,without playing, tuned the A4 by ear,, and A3 then raised chromatically to A4.

That was not as bad as I expected, indeed some funny "slow beating intervals" (!) but my A was right on pitch at 442 (and the A3 A4 octave was large by 3 beats)

I also recorded making a temperament in 4ths and 5ths without playing 2 notes together, this was as bad as the first try.

I also recorded chasing for consonance while tuning unisons.

I ll have to edit a little so the files are not too large, and some audible facts appears.

My fork was a 440 fork (I did not find it when I wanted to check so I had to cut some part of the record where I am looking for it !).

I generally tune a 442 from the 440 fork so I was a little surprized to have the A 442 but I guess I am stuck in that pitch..

Dont misunderstand me, another day I will tune the A a quarter tone up ! , but there it worked (and generally speaking my A is around 442).


Here is the link : https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6GjQDkF_AMQYjZxMG9TaHkwVW8

Here I tuned unisons chasing for the 12 15 resonance. Unisons where not really "build" there just tuned to the maximum energy immediately. I generally give smore body to the tone, but this is for demonstration, and the piano, a small grand need new hammers, he also have low iH wire that make the tone a little bland with the actual impregnated and thin old hammers. (the instrument is a small grand from 1930, not finished , no leather on backchecks for instance)
I believe that the tone energized by the ratio is audible (even if dampers are on the other notes) on some note sit allowed me to detect falseness in the upper note easily.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6GjQDkF_AMQaFVQWGR5R0t6bHc

I looked at the results with Tunelab !

No surprize I had good results in pitch raising.

I tuned a A 441 Hz first, from what Tunelab tells me. Interesting how I tuned for some time until I "knew" it was 440 (41 for the matter !) I missed the point in the end thinking I had tuned the A to 442 or 3 while it was at 41 (what I said first) and stayed at that pitch more or less.
(may be bad comparaison between 3d an tenth, false result due to wrong note used , it should have been F2 A4)

Difficult to get to a precise pitch chromatically on a piano because we are obliged to tune from above and set the tuning pin a minimum if we want the pitch to stay where it is. I should try the same experiment with electronics and see where I get then.

Also I did not make ANY comparison so the first 13 was tuned too low to begin with

No one heard what I did or you are simply jealous ?