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#1874062 - 04/05/12 08:39 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2447
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
There is presently a study being conducted by 3 epedemiologists in an area near a chemical plant in the US concerning C8 (PFOA). I beleive its in Parkersburg WV where Dupont makes Teflon. Results should be out later in the year but will reflect the direction that possible lawsuits will go. 98% of the population in the US has PPB amounts of PFOA in their bloodstream according to testing and the material has ben manufactured since the 1940's. Teflon pan overheating will release the agents only if the surface has been scratched according to some studies. Incidently, perfumed scented candles, air fresheners and toxins from common houshold plants are the primary source of toxicity for housepet birds according to my veteranarian. If PFOA is of concern to someone, it is commonly found in stain resistant carpeting, carpet cleaning chemicals, microwave popcorn bags, Gore-Tex, house dust and food and water that come into contact of areas where the material has been dumped.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1874072 - 04/05/12 08:50 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
pianocat88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 99
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
The MSDS (material safety data sheet, available from where you purchase a chemical)for Teflon was written for using the product in factories where the Teflon is heated. We don't use it that way. We use the powder at room temperature and apply it directly onto a surface. It is inert, but an inhalation hazard. It is also fine enough that it will enter your bloodstream through the skin. It will stay in your liver. Cumulative damage is a real issue. So often, self employed technicians ignore chemical (and other occupational) safety issues.
Years ago, I taught a class on chemical safety. Randy Potter modified my class notes and made a video.

If we are working in schools and places of business, there are legal requirements we need to pay attention to as far as chemical safety and workplace safety regulations. Here is a brochure from OHSA on guidelines for small business.

http://www.slideshare.net/ankenytemp/osha-for-small-business
_________________________
Lisa Weller, RPT
Huntington Beach, CA
www.wellerpianoservice.com

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#1874098 - 04/05/12 09:58 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2447
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I find it strange to read that Teflon can enter your system through the skin since I presume the size of the particles (microns) would be a factor in this ability. There are products out there such as Slik Dust (by Skin Strong) that are used by atheletes to dust their feet and shoes to prevent chaffing. They contain teflon also. My understanding is that Teflon is inert, that is the main reason that scrapings of the Teflon from cooking pans apparantly cause no harm if ingested. I am beginning to wonder if the Teflon scare is right up there with the mercury amalgam dental fillings. Many people have gotten their fillings replaced with conmposites instead and now they are finding that the composites contain bisphenals which has estrogen in it and along with the adhesives/binders used, are likely just as as toxic.

Reminds me of an often quoted 3rd graders report...

Socrates was a Greek philosopher who went around giving people good advice. They poisoned him.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1874102 - 04/05/12 10:01 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2043
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Lisa,

To my knowledge, the particle size in typical dry lubricant teflon powders is about 2 to 10 microns. Intuitively, I would expect the skin to keep such a particle size out quite easily. Can you provide references for your statement that this is fine enough to enter the bloodstream through the skin?

(Nanoparticles are a different matter, of course. But the teflon in lubricating powders is not nano-sized.)
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1874136 - 04/05/12 11:08 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Mark R.]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Mark R.


Secondly, there is no rational foundation for the statement, "Bird owners should rid their house of teflon cooking pans."


Then I suggest you take it up with avian veterinarians and professional parrot breeders, since that is what most of them recommend, instead of berating me for repeating the recommendation.
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1874139 - 04/05/12 11:15 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Just had this document come in from a colleague in Europe.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/4716.php
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1874330 - 04/05/12 06:58 PM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
pianocat88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 99
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Mark- All my MSDS-bs es were in my tool case when it was stolen. I'll have to go look it up. Thanks for making me do this. I need new paperwork anyway.

Here is the link to the MSDS for powdered Teflon from Spurlock Specialty Tools. http://www.spurlocktools.com/id39.htm

The MSDS doesn't state anything about using the product as we do, directly applying it to friction points in the piano action.
Things that stuck out to me in this report are where the animal testing showed lung irritation after a single exposure. No skin irritant, but in the handling instructions, it states to avoid contact with eyes, skin and clothing. It also says to avoid contact with food and cigarettes.
I really would like to get answers because we're leaving this powdery stuff in pianos. Some of it will become airborne through the strings with all the other dust and stuff coming off the hammers through the strings when people play.

I don't think this MSDS is complete because it leaves out information for us like spill clean-up, disposal, and more clear information on irritant hazards instead of just stating that "exposure is unlikely".

This is the guide that is suggested reading on the powdered Teflon MSDS before reading the actual MSDS information:

http://www.fluoropolymers.org/news/APFOsafehandlingguide.pdf

On page 10 of this guide, there are statements on health hazards and toxicity. They are always talking about FPA's which are liquids. So since we use the product unheated and dry, the information is inconclusive. I'd err to the side of caution.
_________________________
Lisa Weller, RPT
Huntington Beach, CA
www.wellerpianoservice.com

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#1874344 - 04/05/12 07:19 PM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
Well I just bought a new set of pans/pots (Tfal)and there instructions say season the pans
and don't overheat...and if you burn the pot toss it, isn't the current coating outlawed by 2015?
and thanks for the info about carpets..(stainmaster)

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#1874616 - 04/06/12 11:12 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: accordeur
Thanks to Jerry Groot and Dan Silverwood.

I made a paste with alcohol and teflon powder today.

I can imagine already how much easier some of it's uses will be now.

Thanks again.

Jean


Hey Jean, two things I observed with the paste; it keeps the dust down to a minimum when working with this product. Secondly the alcohol draws the mix deeper into the buckskin. After a few applications over time, even when the knuckles are brushed the mixture remains impregnated in the buckskin to a certain degree. This cuts down on the use and handling of the product.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1874619 - 04/06/12 11:14 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
thumb
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1874623 - 04/06/12 11:24 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1207
Loc: Québec, Canada
Thanks Dan,

I used it yesterday on a set of knuckles and it worked really well. Thanks again.

Jean
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#1874870 - 04/06/12 08:05 PM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
S. Phillips Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 299
Loc: Forte Farm, Lexington, KY
Does the client in question use a beat up teflon frying pan? Probably more dangerous eating a ton of it than accidentally snorting the microscopic amount thrown into the air by flailing knuckles.
_________________________
Sally Phillips
Piano Technician
One can always find something to improve.
2 Steinway Os, Steinway B & C, C. Bechstein A
Phillips Piano Tech
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New Federal and State Ivory Regulations and Pianos
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#1874907 - 04/06/12 09:25 PM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Teflon is used on more than just cookware and it sometimes lines ovens and toaster ovens.

Some hair blowdryers even use teflon coasted metal inside for some reason.

I get regular email notices from a few avian and veterinary organizations (obviously I'm bird obsessed) and one of the regular horror stories that is always sent around is when someone's expensive parrots drop dead and all they did was use a brand new toaster oven or even blowdryer on their bird.

Yesterday I received such an email telling the story about a lady who's whole family was devastated and her kids won't stop crying because their African Grey parrot died within five minutes of her using a new table top toaster oven (that didn't overheat) that was a gift from her sister.

If you don't have birds it's not a problem but it amazes me that there's something going into the air through just normal use that seems to be completely innocuous to us.

But hey, I've got four birds and I've got a bottle of the Teflon powder at home for my piano (but no Teflon cookware) so I think the piano tech removing it is totally out of line.
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1874972 - 04/07/12 12:32 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Sparky McBiff]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff
and one of the regular horror stories that is always sent around is when someone's expensive parrots drop dead and all they did was use a brand new toaster oven or even blowdryer on their bird.


I hope they didn't put their beloved parrot in the toaster oven. whome
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of Fine Heirloom Pianos

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#1875103 - 04/07/12 10:31 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
These postings are from LinkedIn Piano Technican and Tuners forum;

Quote:
Indeed, an outrageous statement Dan Silverwood; Thanks for bringing this issue to our attention. Never B/4 have I heard of this pathetic attempt to [perhaps?] throw ones weight around a little..?? I have used Teflon Powder purchased from Bill Spurlock {Spurlock Specialty tools} in California as well as from Bob Marinelli of PianoTek in Michigan, both of whom are very well respected Piano Techs. in the industry, & from whom I've learned so much.

I've used Teflon Powder for 30 years in dozens of Pianos from Minnesota to Washington State and by golly, all of my Piano Clients are still very much alive last I heard....why would some of our best Techs. be selling this item to us if it were so harmful...??? Have used the Teflon powder from numerous spots in the Piano Action & Grand Keybed down to the lower parts of the Pedal & Trapwork systems while restoring the functions of the failing Grand pedal system, and is among the best lubricant {not to mention the best squeek eliminating agent} for vertical & grand pianos known to man, in my humble opinion....


Quote:
Hi,

The technician in Vancouver is in error about the material. He is confusing frying pans at high heat with pianos.

Here is the msds for the product.


(MSDS already posted here so I did not include again)

Quote:
One of my clients is a retired engineer who worked for IBM (they formerly had a huge manufacturing base here, now mostly IT support).

He told me of a project he worked on years ago to manufacture plastic housings incormporating recycled plastics. From a warehouseful of obsolete military telecommunications equipment which they piurchased, he devised processes to convert the plastic housings into reusabkle materials, and achieved plastics materials made from 100% recycled plastics, well ahead of anyone else.

I mention this to illuatrate that he has expertise in synthetic materials. I spoke with him about Teflon powder, which I was using on his piano. Sopecifically I raised the issue of safety. He assured me "No, that'll not do you any harm", with a slight emphasis on the "you". This fits the idea that while the manufacturing propcess may involve hazards which need to be controlled, the end product is perfectly safe.

It is outrageous for a technician to make unfounded assertions about a legitimate product widely available and used by reputable technicians.

The MSDS referred to below is the one on Spurlock’s web site;
.
Quote:
From the Carcinogenicity Information section of the above MSDS
"None of the components present in this material at concentrations equal to or greater than 0.1% are listed by IARC, NTP, OSHA or ACGIH as a carcinogen." .


Quote:
I am a piano restorer in the United Kingdom and have used teflon,and never heard this about that product before.

Could it be the said piano Tech is trying to blow his own trumpet to make himself look good to a client, thus causing problems for the retailer selling the piano.
If there was a problem the company making this product would know.

Especially as its an American product, and they would not want lawsuits against them.
If it cannot be backed up by scientific data ignore it.



_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1880437 - 04/16/12 09:14 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
As many recent discovers I understand that fumes or PTFE degraded by heat may be a hazard for health (as most probably many substance, with the difference that we cook aliments in Teflon covered pans, so I understand this is a very sensitive question)

The pan making and Teflon making trade will protest and pay some people to influence the ones who make laws (if it have not been yet the case yet) so those products cannot be banished and no pertinent information can be easily find. As "how many names palm oil based products have, when in our food" (that one is interesting !).

This is the world as we are leaving it for our children. To get thru some real facts is rarely easy .

That is why I like the concept of "caution until I know better".

I know a few German top technicians that simply stopped using it and take talcum in replacement.

We need something on (in) the "leathers" to avoid graphite contamination from the jack (and to lessen friction indeed)so, when I'll have finished my 750 grs of lMP1100 I received as a free sample from Dupont Nemours I will use something else !
Joking in fact I use yet micro fine Teflon, but I try not to abuse of it, I also wonder, most of them "leather" beying polyurethane micro fiber fabrics today, that may also exists a possibly that a a reaction between 2 different chemicals occurs with the PTFE ..

A chemist may know better, I did not find one to explain me if there where a possibility of hazard between PTFE and polyurethane microfiber.
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#1880481 - 04/16/12 11:44 AM Re: Teflon powder unsafe? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2447
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
There has been a lot of buzz lately in regards to absorption of products through the skin that contain nano particles. Some makeup for instance contains these particles. Most government studies on absorption of materials through the skin are concentrating on particles less than 1 micron in size...a nanometer is 1/1000th of a micron. The teflon powders I have seen available for our work I believe have a particulate size in the 2-4 micron range...far to course to be absorbed through the skin unless exposed to an open cut.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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