There is presently a study being conducted by 3 epedemiologists in an area near a chemical plant in the US concerning C8 (PFOA). I beleive its in Parkersburg WV where Dupont makes Teflon. Results should be out later in the year but will reflect the direction that possible lawsuits will go. 98% of the population in the US has PPB amounts of PFOA in their bloodstream according to testing and the material has ben manufactured since the 1940's. Teflon pan overheating will release the agents only if the surface has been scratched according to some studies. Incidently, perfumed scented candles, air fresheners and toxins from common houshold plants are the primary source of toxicity for housepet birds according to my veteranarian. If PFOA is of concern to someone, it is commonly found in stain resistant carpeting, carpet cleaning chemicals, microwave popcorn bags, Gore-Tex, house dust and food and water that come into contact of areas where the material has been dumped.

The MSDS (material safety data sheet, available from where you purchase a chemical)for Teflon was written for using the product in factories where the Teflon is heated. We don't use it that way. We use the powder at room temperature and apply it directly onto a surface. It is inert, but an inhalation hazard. It is also fine enough that it will enter your bloodstream through the skin. It will stay in your liver. Cumulative damage is a real issue. So often, self employed technicians ignore chemical (and other occupational) safety issues.
Years ago, I taught a class on chemical safety. Randy Potter modified my class notes and made a video.

If we are working in schools and places of business, there are legal requirements we need to pay attention to as far as chemical safety and workplace safety regulations. Here is a brochure from OHSA on guidelines for small business.

http://www.slideshare.net/ankenytemp/osha-for-small-business

I find it strange to read that Teflon can enter your system through the skin since I presume the size of the particles (microns) would be a factor in this ability. There are products out there such as Slik Dust (by Skin Strong) that are used by atheletes to dust their feet and shoes to prevent chaffing. They contain teflon also. My understanding is that Teflon is inert, that is the main reason that scrapings of the Teflon from cooking pans apparantly cause no harm if ingested. I am beginning to wonder if the Teflon scare is right up there with the mercury amalgam dental fillings. Many people have gotten their fillings replaced with conmposites instead and now they are finding that the composites contain bisphenals which has estrogen in it and along with the adhesives/binders used, are likely just as as toxic.

Reminds me of an often quoted 3rd graders report...

Socrates was a Greek philosopher who went around giving people good advice. They poisoned him.

Lisa,

To my knowledge, the particle size in typical dry lubricant teflon powders is about 2 to 10 microns. Intuitively, I would expect the skin to keep such a particle size out quite easily. Can you provide references for your statement that this is fine enough to enter the bloodstream through the skin?

(Nanoparticles are a different matter, of course. But the teflon in lubricating powders is not nano-sized.)

Then I suggest you take it up with avian veterinarians and professional parrot breeders, since that is what most of them recommend, instead of berating me for repeating the recommendation.

Just had this document come in from a colleague in Europe.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/4716.php

Mark- All my MSDS-bs es were in my tool case when it was stolen. I'll have to go look it up. Thanks for making me do this. I need new paperwork anyway.

Here is the link to the MSDS for powdered Teflon from Spurlock Specialty Tools. http://www.spurlocktools.com/id39.htm

The MSDS doesn't state anything about using the product as we do, directly applying it to friction points in the piano action.
Things that stuck out to me in this report are where the animal testing showed lung irritation after a single exposure. No skin irritant, but in the handling instructions, it states to avoid contact with eyes, skin and clothing. It also says to avoid contact with food and cigarettes.
I really would like to get answers because we're leaving this powdery stuff in pianos. Some of it will become airborne through the strings with all the other dust and stuff coming off the hammers through the strings when people play.

I don't think this MSDS is complete because it leaves out information for us like spill clean-up, disposal, and more clear information on irritant hazards instead of just stating that "exposure is unlikely".

This is the guide that is suggested reading on the powdered Teflon MSDS before reading the actual MSDS information:

http://www.fluoropolymers.org/news/APFOsafehandlingguide.pdf

On page 10 of this guide, there are statements on health hazards and toxicity. They are always talking about FPA's which are liquids. So since we use the product unheated and dry, the information is inconclusive. I'd err to the side of caution.

Well I just bought a new set of pans/pots (Tfal)and there instructions say season the pans
and don't overheat...and if you burn the pot toss it, isn't the current coating outlawed by 2015?
and thanks for the info about carpets..(stainmaster)

Hey Jean, two things I observed with the paste; it keeps the dust down to a minimum when working with this product. Secondly the alcohol draws the mix deeper into the buckskin. After a few applications over time, even when the knuckles are brushed the mixture remains impregnated in the buckskin to a certain degree. This cuts down on the use and handling of the product.

Thanks Dan,

I used it yesterday on a set of knuckles and it worked really well. Thanks again.

Jean

Does the client in question use a beat up teflon frying pan? Probably more dangerous eating a ton of it than accidentally snorting the microscopic amount thrown into the air by flailing knuckles.

Teflon is used on more than just cookware and it sometimes lines ovens and toaster ovens.

Some hair blowdryers even use teflon coasted metal inside for some reason.

I get regular email notices from a few avian and veterinary organizations (obviously I'm bird obsessed) and one of the regular horror stories that is always sent around is when someone's expensive parrots drop dead and all they did was use a brand new toaster oven or even blowdryer on their bird.

Yesterday I received such an email telling the story about a lady who's whole family was devastated and her kids won't stop crying because their African Grey parrot died within five minutes of her using a new table top toaster oven (that didn't overheat) that was a gift from her sister.

If you don't have birds it's not a problem but it amazes me that there's something going into the air through just normal use that seems to be completely innocuous to us.

But hey, I've got four birds and I've got a bottle of the Teflon powder at home for my piano (but no Teflon cookware) so I think the piano tech removing it is totally out of line.

I hope they didn't put their beloved parrot in the toaster oven.

These postings are from LinkedIn Piano Technican and Tuners forum;





(MSDS already posted here so I did not include again)


The MSDS referred to below is the one on Spurlock’s web site;
.

As many recent discovers I understand that fumes or PTFE degraded by heat may be a hazard for health (as most probably many substance, with the difference that we cook aliments in Teflon covered pans, so I understand this is a very sensitive question)

The pan making and Teflon making trade will protest and pay some people to influence the ones who make laws (if it have not been yet the case yet) so those products cannot be banished and no pertinent information can be easily find. As "how many names palm oil based products have, when in our food" (that one is interesting !).

This is the world as we are leaving it for our children. To get thru some real facts is rarely easy .

That is why I like the concept of "caution until I know better".

I know a few German top technicians that simply stopped using it and take talcum in replacement.

We need something on (in) the "leathers" to avoid graphite contamination from the jack (and to lessen friction indeed)so, when I'll have finished my 750 grs of lMP1100 I received as a free sample from Dupont Nemours I will use something else !
Joking in fact I use yet micro fine Teflon, but I try not to abuse of it, I also wonder, most of them "leather" beying polyurethane micro fiber fabrics today, that may also exists a possibly that a a reaction between 2 different chemicals occurs with the PTFE ..

A chemist may know better, I did not find one to explain me if there where a possibility of hazard between PTFE and polyurethane microfiber.

There has been a lot of buzz lately in regards to absorption of products through the skin that contain nano particles. Some makeup for instance contains these particles. Most government studies on absorption of materials through the skin are concentrating on particles less than 1 micron in size...a nanometer is 1/1000th of a micron. The teflon powders I have seen available for our work I believe have a particulate size in the 2-4 micron range...far to course to be absorbed through the skin unless exposed to an open cut.