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#1882592 - 04/19/12 07:00 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: EssBrace]
piano_shark Offline
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Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: piano_shark
Pianoteq and V-piano beats all sampled pianos already.


This coming from someone who claimed to be on the brink of buying an AvantGrand just three or four days ago...and yet now you seem to have formed such an unequivocal conclusion about matters.

I question your motivation for being here to be honest.....


and I question your logical reasoning. I was thinking about avantgrand because of the real grand action and grand piano cabinet. Sound I'd get through software piano. I ended up buying a real acoustic grand instead. It is free country and
I can have my own opinion - V-piano and pianoteq beat all sampled pianos IMO (and many other musicians to be accurate)


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#1882598 - 04/19/12 07:05 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
36251 Online   content
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#1882608 - 04/19/12 07:19 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: piano_shark]
MacMacMac Offline
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Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3901
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: piano_shark
Pianoteq and V-piano beats all sampled pianos already.
Which sampled pianos have you sampled? I know of many sampled piano that put Pianoteq to shame. All of the Galaxy and Ivory products do a much better job. They sound like pianos because they are recorded from pianos. Have you tried them, or are you just talking smack?

Even the native sounds of a low-end Yamaha (say P155) sounds marginally better than Pianoteq.

But the PC-based libraries are in a class by themselves.

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#1882616 - 04/19/12 07:31 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
musicmad Offline
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Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 152
Loc: London England
Thanks guys for all the feedback, but i think voxpops made it quite clear.

Realistic sound = sampled

Realistic response = modeled
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#1882654 - 04/19/12 08:46 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
mitzysman Offline
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Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 290
I pretty much agree with Voxpops - but I think the long term solution is a combination of both. Modeling can add characteristics that you can't record and reproduce with samples.
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#1882665 - 04/19/12 09:09 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: mitzysman]
alekkh Offline
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Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
That hybrid technology was available since the beginning of digital pianos in RealPiano and Promega I/II by GEM.

Now, in Yamaha CP1.

Somehow they were good but clearly not winners of the market.


Not sure sampled+modeled has proven more promising than anything else.

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#1882689 - 04/19/12 09:55 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: voxpops]
Gomer Offline
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Registered: 09/14/11
Posts: 132
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Suggestion:

When at the zoo, don't feed the monkeys.

Same applies to the aquarium.

I like to feed the monkeys in the morning so that they can fling poo later in the day.

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#1882691 - 04/19/12 10:01 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: alekkh]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3102
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: alekkh
That hybrid technology was available since the beginning of digital pianos in RealPiano and Promega I/II by GEM.

Now, in Yamaha CP1.

Somehow they were good but clearly not winners of the market.


Not sure sampled+modeled has proven more promising than anything else.

Those GEMS had a really nice quality to them - not "dead" like so many sampled offerings. Sure they needed further development, but they were on the right track. Similarly, I think Roland is getting close with SN. I can't speak for the Yamaha system, having only played the latest CPs briefly, but I do think the hybrid approach is currently the one with the most promise.
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#1882724 - 04/19/12 11:25 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: voxpops]
alekkh Offline
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Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
The trouble is - the same promise was already there 10 years ago.


Personally I am sure pure modeling one day will have it solved. Nobody will be sure anymore if they are listening to a real grand or a model. The same as with today's video effects in movies. The reason we aren't as good about modeling sounds as we are about modeling video - tens of millions $ per weekend are not likely in return. So, serious investors don't bother. Modeling piano is more like a hobby, even for Roland or Pianoteq.

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#1882735 - 04/19/12 11:46 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
erichlof Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 376
+1 for Hybrid Technology - for now....

This is the immediate solution, or dare I say "Band-Aid" for the true piano emulation problem. Even 127 Velocity layers of sampled recordings is not enough. As Imperfect Samples and Sampletekk's huge Yamaha C7 (big one) can attest, it still sounds like unrelated snapshots or a collage of slides, when what you really want is a seamless, organic motion picture! smile

It is the interaction BETWEEN notes and rich soundboard resonance that gives pianos souls. Modelling gives us this quality, but sticking with the movie analogy, it is not in HD yet, it is still 460 pixels.

So what can we do? well.. Stick the snapshots at the beginning of the sound and then somehow seamlessly transition into Pianoteq's beautiful and fantastically complex sympathetic string and soundboard resonance mathematics.

The samples+modelling paradigm will be a "Crutch" that we can lean on for the next 10 years or so. But to truly re-create the piano experience, detail by detail, will require algorithms that make Pianoteq's look like 1st grade addition. And, yes, the samples will have to be abandoned eventually, because they are just that...samples. Even if you have 64,000 per key, it is not enough. It will do nothing for the resonance and soul of the piano.

The answer lies within modelling algorithms and mathematical synthesis done on heavy-duty future processors and soundcards.

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#1882755 - 04/20/12 02:46 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: piano_shark]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: piano_shark
I can have my own opinion - V-piano and pianoteq beat all sampled pianos IMO (and many other musicians to be accurate)


I think for the most part those musicians are ill informed or being paid by Roland or PT. It doesn't take a lot of effort to try both and find that the V and especially PianoTeq are much less realistic and beautiful to listen to than a quality sampled piano.


Edited by gvfarns (04/20/12 03:11 AM)

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#1882765 - 04/20/12 03:08 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
Gigantoad Offline
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Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Sampled pianos already use modelling to add stuff like sympathetic resonance. Synthogy calls it:

Quote:

Harmonic Resonance Modeling for the most realistic Sympathetic String Resonance possible


Since modelled pianos all seem to use some kind of base tone as well that stays the same no matter the preset, I really don't see why this "samples are just a snapshot" argument comes up so often. Listen to those Pianoteq D4 preset comparisons:

http://www.pianoteq.com/d4_in_action?s=d4_presets

They all have the same base tone with just slight variation in equalization, softness, reverb etc. but the general sound stays the same.

Roland admitted to the same thing, they had to use some kind of base tone in the V-Piano that remains no matter what. This isn't really suprising. In synthesis, there is always some kind of base tone involved, usually in the form of oscillators. All that you call "modelling" is what follows after that to mold the sound into something more interesting.

And whoever claims that P4 sounds better than any sampled piano, I do hope you're kidding. I really do. You must have an unbelievable grudge against sampled pianos to claim such a thing. Pianoteq 4 is certainly an improvement over 3, but listen to these demos, then listen to some Ivory II demos, then listen to some real piano recording. One sounds like a toy, two sound like the real deal. Surely you can figure out which is which. If not then you have lost either objectivity or hearing.

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#1882775 - 04/20/12 03:22 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: Gigantoad]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Excellent post, Gigantoad.

Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
Since modelled pianos all seem to use some kind of base tone as well that stays the same no matter the preset, I really don't see why this "samples are just a snapshot" argument comes up so often.


I think it's the perpetuation of some marketing, honestly. The best sampled pianos use recordings to pin down the piano sound at a few velocity points and then interpolate between to get a sound for each of the 127 velocities. Pure modeled pianos just make up a sound for each velocity, but in both cases for a given velocity the sound is fixed. There's no reason to think one sounds more dead than the other.

For that matter, talk of PT being more "playable" is the perpetuation of marketing as well, I think. Back in the day sampled libraries didn't have partial pedaling or repedaling, and they didn't have nuances like sympathetic resonance and release samples. That got labeled playability. Somehow PT persuaded people that the lack of those items is inherent in having a sampled base sound (timbre). But it's not. PT and sampled libraries both must program in these features explicitly. Modeling refers only to the generation of the underlying timbre. In short, I do not believe that sampled pianos are more playable. None that I have played are more playable or natural-responding than Galaxy, for example. Even if you can find some way in which a sampled piano does not behave right, it just means the sampled piano maker didn't think to add programming for that case. It has nothing to do with the engine that generates the timbre.

Attempts to model piano are similar to attempts to have computers speak and make it sound natural. Scientists have been working on this since computers were in their infancy, and they have improved a lot over time. But it still doesn't sound right. Making an algorithm generate a sound (from scratch) that is generated by a nontrivial process in real life is hard. I expect that modeled pianos will sound better than sampled pianos when modeled voices sound better and more natural than recorded human voices. That day is far off and it may never come.

Modeled pianos can be very tweakable, and the technology is really cool, but that doesn't mean in their current state they compare with serious sampled libraries.


Edited by gvfarns (04/20/12 03:34 AM)

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#1882787 - 04/20/12 03:47 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: alekkh]
piano_shark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: alekkh
The reason we aren't as good about modeling sounds as we are about modeling video - tens of millions $ per weekend are not likely in return.


not good comparison because our eyes are far more easily fooled then ears, that's the reason.

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#1882789 - 04/20/12 03:58 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Hmmm. That doesn't sound generally true to me. I don't see eyes being more easily fooled than ears in general. Hard things to compare, but I think eyes are relatively difficult to fool. My wife can't tell the difference between a recording of a cheapo keyboard, a nice digital, a VST, and an acoustic. She can tell very easily that the robot in Terminator 1 is stop-motion and fake.

I think alekkh is right. Modeled sound could progress much faster if

1. There was a ton more money behind it.

2. There was a compelling need for it. Hollywood only uses computer special effects where it's too expensive or difficult/impossible to do with real life stuff. Otherwise they use real life stuff.

I don't see a ton of money flowing to piano sounds any time soon, and the need to move away from sampled technology doesn't strike me as very compelling. That's why there are only two fully modeled pianos in the world and they aren't as good as they could be.


Edited by gvfarns (04/20/12 04:00 AM)

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#1882792 - 04/20/12 04:09 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: gvfarns]
piano_shark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Hmmm. That doesn't sound generally true to me. I don't see eyes being more easily fooled than ears in general. Hard things to compare, but I think eyes are relatively difficult to fool.


you got to be kidding, I suggest go back to high school physics.
This is well known fact, as you know you can fool you eyes simply
by sorting fast pages of a book hence we have a movies today.
Try this with ears where some fellows can distinguish fraction of half tone differences.



p.s.
My bad BTW getting into arguments which piano sound is better. It's very subjective plus people are very intolerant of others having drastically different opinions. I know what I know and what I hear and you know what you hear (or not) - all is an illusion anyway. Also FYI The reason I think sampled pianos will go away is the same as with vinyls faded away.

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#1882796 - 04/20/12 04:31 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
Gigantoad Offline
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Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Eyes are certainly hard to fool, especially when we see simulated things that we are used to seeing everyday like faces. It took the 3D industry very long to create believable 3D faces with correct animations. On the other hand, sound engineers have used all kinds of materials to simulate sounds in movies for decades, like horse galloping simulated with coconuts.

Granted, as gvfarns has pointed out, simulating voices is very hard as well because we're so used to how they sound and we can make out even the smallest inconsistency. Maybe that comparison fairer in terms of piano modelling.

There is another aspect which I would call "habit". When you listen to something or watch something long enough, you will get used to it. We can observe this phenomenon when people buy new TV's. The colors might be completely off but after just a few days they will get used to it. At some point they might even be convinced that their TV has the most realistic colors on the market. Only when their sets are properly color-calibrated will they realise, slowly, how very wrong the colors were before.

I think the same thing is happening with Pianoteq. There is a minority, most prominent in the PQ forum obviously, with the impression that Pianoteq 3 was the holy grail in term of piano sound reproduction sounding much more like a real piano than anything else. Now comes Pianoteq 4 and pretty much everyone over their calls it a major upgrade (which it is imo). Doesn't that show that PT3 was not anywhere near as good as they thought? And now the circle of denial starts again.

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#1882809 - 04/20/12 05:39 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: piano_shark]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: piano_shark
Also FYI The reason I think sampled pianos will go away is the same as with vinyls faded away.



Wrong again. Many shops are giving over more floor space to vinyl records now - there is a real resurgence in interest in vinyl (I'm talking new releases, not second hand records). There may be lots of reasons for this but I can tell you one may be that they simply sound better.
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#1882810 - 04/20/12 05:40 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: gvfarns]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Excellent post, Gigantoad.


+1
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#1882811 - 04/20/12 05:41 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: Gigantoad]
piano_shark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
Eyes are certainly hard to fool, especially when we see simulated things that we are used to seeing everyday like faces.




check this one out and try this with ears...



or this, which direction the girl is spinning? because it can be either way...


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#1882813 - 04/20/12 05:46 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: piano_shark]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9680
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: piano_shark
Also FYI The reason I think sampled pianos will go away is the same as with vinyls faded away.


_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1882814 - 04/20/12 05:53 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Oh no, a return to vinyl because it sounds better.

When CDs were introduced many folks thought they sounded sterile. The reason was, the vinyl LPs were mastered from tapes with their inherent tape hiss. When that hiss was not present we missed it and things sounded sterile. (Also some folks just have an aversion to anything digital, it has be analogue to be good.)

I guess now's the time for a discussion for those extremely expensive audio cables, you know, the cables that cost more per meter than most of us make in a week. smile
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#1882818 - 04/20/12 06:06 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: Dave Horne]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I guess now's the time for a discussion for those extremely expensive audio cables, you know, the cables that cost more per meter than most of us make in a week. smile


Now is not that time!
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#1882827 - 04/20/12 06:25 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: piano_shark]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: piano_shark
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
Eyes are certainly hard to fool, especially when we see simulated things that we are used to seeing everyday like faces.


check this one out and try this with ears...


http://listverse.com/2008/02/29/top-10-incredible-sound-illusions/

Either way, optical illusions are no proof that our eyes are easily fooled. They merely exploit certain ways how our brain processes images. Using this to back your argument is actually pretty dumb because neither images nor sound are usually aimed at creating such illusions. When you watch a movie you will never be tricked in such ways, but you will very easily notice if that 3D face isn't entirely realistic compared to that of a real actor.

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#1882834 - 04/20/12 06:49 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: EssBrace]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3707
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I guess now's the time for a discussion for those extremely expensive audio cables, you know, the cables that cost more per meter than most of us make in a week. smile


Now is not that time!


Oh, for the love of god, please don't start up that debate again... eek

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#1882847 - 04/20/12 07:27 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: piano_shark]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: piano_shark
Originally Posted By: alekkh
The reason we aren't as good about modeling sounds as we are about modeling video - tens of millions $ per weekend are not likely in return.


not good comparison because our eyes are far more easily fooled then ears, that's the reason.


piano_shark - now you are in trouble. No number of images or animations posted will save you. That's a statement that demands a scientific proof. Which research has shown that? Only credible sources will count.


I think you wouldn't find one. Because your are comparing apples with carrots.

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#1882854 - 04/20/12 07:47 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
musicmad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 152
Loc: London England
OP here

Again thanks to all for your contributed opinions it's been a long an debated discussion. However the outcome of my choice is to go with a Sampled Library, that being Galaxy 2, Galaxy Vintage D and the amazing sound from Imperfect Samples.

I think going with these library's after certain FXs have been applied in the creation process, Tone, Resonance, Articulation, Convolution Reverb etc, and of course a good Master, i would hope after post production the recorded Material should be at a standard acceptable for retail.
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#1882857 - 04/20/12 07:51 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: gvfarns]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3446
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The best sampled pianos use recordings to pin down the piano sound at a few velocity points and then interpolate between to get a sound for each of the 127 velocities. Pure modeled pianos just make up a sound for each velocity, but in both cases for a given velocity the sound is fixed.


A modeled piano can create 127 distinct sounds for those 127 velocities, each containing numerous parameters that are gradually and smoothly varied from steps 1 through 127. Unless a sampled piano includes 127 sampled velocity layers, the equivalent interpolations will be "bumpier" -- i.e. cannot be entirely smoothly gradated from point 1 to 127 because the underlying sound being manipulated has distinct shifts at various points (even though they may try to minimize the audible effects with layer blending). Also samples cannot be modified in all the same ways, because post-processing doesn't have access to all the same elements. For example, if you want to manipulate just the third harmonic of the tone in a particular way over time as velocity changes, you can easily extract and manipulate that in a model, not really in a sample.

I think these are the kinds of things that allow the dynamic gradations of a model to generally feel more sophisticated and more seamless than the velocity gradations in sample based instruments, which I think by nature are more coarse and primitive at their core.

Also, AFAIK, no sample based instruments provide for more than 127 variations. The Pianoteq model provides for more (and the VAX77 controller can trigger them).

OTOH, there are qualities that modeling hasn't successfully captured this far, such that a sample at a given velocity can sound more authentic than a model at the same velocity. So I think that's why we come to the perspective that, at least as a generality, the sampled sound is more accurate, but the playing transitions from one velocity to another is smoother in models. So each can be seen as more realistic than the other in some aspect.

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#1882867 - 04/20/12 08:13 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: anotherscott]
Gigantoad Offline
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Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
[quote=gvfarns]The best sampled pianos use
OTOH, there are qualities that modeling hasn't successfully captured this far, such that a sample at a given velocity can sound more authentic than a model at the same velocity. So I think that's why we come to the perspective that, at least as a generality, the sampled sound is more accurate, but the playing transitions from one velocity to another is smoother in models. So each can be seen as more realistic than the other in some aspect.


The slight issue is that those transitions are perhaps noticed by some, but not by many. I would hazard a guess that most people do not hear the difference between 127 velocity levels and 18 as long as the latter has smooth layer blending going on. On the other hand, if the sound as a whole sounds as unconvincing as Pianoteq, then that is much more noticable.

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#1882880 - 04/20/12 08:43 AM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: anotherscott]
piano_shark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The best sampled pianos use recordings to pin down the piano sound at a few velocity points and then interpolate between to get a sound for each of the 127 velocities. Pure modeled pianos just make up a sound for each velocity, but in both cases for a given velocity the sound is fixed.


A modeled piano can create 127 distinct sounds for those 127 velocities, each containing numerous parameters that are gradually and smoothly varied from steps 1 through 127. Unless a sampled piano includes 127 sampled velocity layers, the equivalent interpolations will be "bumpier" -- i.e. cannot be entirely smoothly gradated from point 1 to 127 because the underlying sound being manipulated has distinct shifts at various points (even though they may try to minimize the audible effects with layer blending). Also samples cannot be modified in all the same ways, because post-processing doesn't have access to all the same elements. For example, if you want to manipulate just the third harmonic of the tone in a particular way over time as velocity changes, you can easily extract and manipulate that in a model, not really in a sample.

I think these are the kinds of things that allow the dynamic gradations of a model to generally feel more sophisticated and more seamless than the velocity gradations in sample based instruments, which I think by nature are more coarse and primitive at their core.

Also, AFAIK, no sample based instruments provide for more than 127 variations. The Pianoteq model provides for more (and the VAX77 controller can trigger them).

OTOH, there are qualities that modeling hasn't successfully captured this far, such that a sample at a given velocity can sound more authentic than a model at the same velocity. So I think that's why we come to the perspective that, at least as a generality, the sampled sound is more accurate, but the playing transitions from one velocity to another is smoother in models. So each can be seen as more realistic than the other in some aspect.



exactly - playability, dynamics and control are much more important for serious player then just simply "nice sound".
Most of defending here sampled piano are kids raised on digital
instruments to start with so no wonder the low expectation...
Yamaha and other companies know that that's why still selling sampled pianos for masses.

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Disklavier Pro Alternatives? C5X Value for money?
by bryan77
12/21/14 01:15 PM
piano sound is the result of more than just the hammer speed
by Keith D Kerman
12/21/14 01:05 PM
piano sound is the result of more than just the hammer speed
by Keith D Kerman
12/21/14 01:05 PM
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