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#1882347 - 04/19/12 12:38 PM Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ???
musicmad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 151
Loc: London England
Hi

Just needed some advice here on what opinions other pianists have concerning modelled vs sampled pianos ? I understand it's down to personal preference, but out of these two different types of technologies which is favored most with regard to realism ?

Thanks.
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#1882351 - 04/19/12 12:46 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 743
There should be a toll (a payment) for asking the same question which has been answered ad nauseam on this site.
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AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#1882356 - 04/19/12 12:51 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3050
Loc: Oregon
Realistic sound = sampled

Realistic response = modeled
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#1882359 - 04/19/12 12:55 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3226
Greatest "realism" will depend on what parameter you are evaluating.

I would say that the best sampled instruments are more realistic in tone than the models, but the best models are more realistic in velocity/dynamic response than the samples.

Some people talk about the more realistic decays of the models, but I think that's only true if you're comparing to looped samples, not to the unlooped samples you can more commonly find in software pianos. That is, it's not an advantage of modeling per se, it's an advantage of not needing to loop. But of course, in hardware pianos, almost all samples are looped.

edit: what voxpops said. ;-) I seem to be a few beats behind today!


Edited by anotherscott (04/19/12 12:57 PM)

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#1882360 - 04/19/12 12:59 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
Karnevil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 159
What voxpops and anthonerscott said is right on the money. At the end of the day there are differing opinions on this subject, and I would advice you to test out modelled vs sampled DPs for youself.
Personally, I would go for a HQ sampled piano (MP10, AvantGrand etc..)

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#1882381 - 04/19/12 01:17 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: 36251]
piano_shark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: 36251
There should be a toll (a payment) for asking the same question which has been answered ad nauseam on this site.


bingo, was his name. g o o o g l e it.

p.s.
if we removed answers redundancy from this forum it would be not mmuch left thumb

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#1882395 - 04/19/12 01:32 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: piano_shark]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: piano_shark
Originally Posted By: 36251
There should be a toll (a payment) for asking the same question which has been answered ad nauseam on this site.


bingo, was his name. g o o o g l e it.

p.s.
if we removed answers redundancy from this forum it would be not mmuch left thumb


Yet, there's no real harm in asking some questions over and over. And over. The world moves forward. The answers change.

Two days ago I would say that sampled is always better. As of PianoTeq 4 that just came out, I'd say modeled becomes a real challenger and actually competes with some low-end sampled pianos.



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#1882396 - 04/19/12 01:33 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: piano_shark]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 743
Originally Posted By: piano_shark
Originally Posted By: 36251
There should be a toll (a payment) for asking the same question which has been answered ad nauseam on this site.


bingo, was his name. g o o o g l e it.

p.s.
if we removed answers redundancy from this forum it would be not mmuch left thumb
I agree but this subject wasn't even given a respite to regroup - geez.

I really not annoyed but I do have fun, making fun of certain topics and this one is really fun.
_________________________
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#1882400 - 04/19/12 01:37 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: alekkh]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: alekkh
Two days ago I would say that sampled is always better. As of PianoTeq 4 that just came out, I'd say modeled becomes a real challenger and actually competes with some low-end sampled pianos.


That implies that you feel that PT4 is better than the V piano. I don't think that's true, and I would be surprised if you did either based on other things you have said. The V is the best modeled piano out there, so until something improves on it, I would say that modeled pianos have not progressed.

To the original poster, based on my playing of PT (I haven't tried the V IRL) I don't find it to have a more realistic response than a good sampled software piano. So I would say to voxpops' comment, that my opinion is

Realistic sound = sampled
Realistic response = they are the same

Though I don't like onboard sampled engines for either sound or response. Their main problem in terms of response is that for the most part their sustain is too short. You can play with the pedal mashed and it doesn't sound muddy. Unrealistic.


Edited by gvfarns (04/19/12 01:40 PM)

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#1882401 - 04/19/12 01:39 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: 36251]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 540
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: 36251
There should be a toll (a payment) for asking the same question which has been answered ad nauseam on this site.


Ha. you took the words out of my mouth.

All newcomers (and this should have included me because i was probably as guilty as anyone else back...in-- the--beginning) should have to query the EXISTING VAST DATABASE of ENDLESS THREADS about these subjects. And, we should elect officers to occasionally bring them back out of the vault for a new round of digital food fights.

my comments- all in fun!


Edited by bfb (04/19/12 01:43 PM)
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Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#1882406 - 04/19/12 01:43 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: bfb]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: bfb
All newcomers (and this should have included me because i was probably as guilty as anyone else back...in-- the--beginning) should have to query the EXISTING VAST DATABASE of ENDLESS THREADS about these subjects.


Very true. The only problem is that the forum search engine is pretty bad. Specifically, if you search a particular term it brings up every post that mentions it, rather than every thread that contains the term. So if you search something, you will get pages of posts from the same thread, which may not actually be on topic. You can do a whole search and look through pages of results and it's all from like the last two weeks or something.

I find the search engine here pretty useless most of the time--though I haven't put a lot of time into it, so it may be user error.


Edited by gvfarns (04/19/12 01:44 PM)

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#1882413 - 04/19/12 02:01 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: gvfarns]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3050
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I find the search engine here pretty useless most of the time--though I haven't put a lot of time into it, so it may be user error.

Sadly, I agree. Although some people seem to be able to do a better job of using it than me.
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#1882425 - 04/19/12 02:26 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: voxpops]
piano_shark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I find the search engine here pretty useless most of the time--though I haven't put a lot of time into it, so it may be user error.

Sadly, I agree. Although some people seem to be able to do a better job of using it than me.


don't need to use build in search engine at all - far better results are directly in google, e.g. just one thread in the results etc. not too mention many google options to customize your search.

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#1882432 - 04/19/12 02:46 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: voxpops]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Realistic sound = sampled

Realistic response = modeled


Exactly. So when are the brainiacs going to figure out that the answer is a combination of the two technologies. V-Piano with samples could be quite compelling. I'm still hopeful, but not going to hold my breath . . .
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#1882450 - 04/19/12 03:14 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: Melodialworks Music]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1876
Loc: Pennsylvania
I will not get into "better or best".

However, I have now utilized various sampled piano sounds along with the Pianoteq modeled sound and have always needed the sampled sound somewhere in the mix but with Pianoteq 4 that era (for me) may have ended.

From what I am finding in Pianoteq 4, there are a few (2 or 3) blues and jazz sounds that I can utilize by themselves and they sound very good to me.

I have also found that layering my CA63 sound with the Pianoteq sound gives me a level of control that is fantastic. I can combine a soft blues sound from Pianoteq with the concert grand sound of my CA63 and generate just enough bite to give me exactly what I want.

For the moment, I feel like I have arrived at Piano Sound heaven. Note that I said ... for the moment ... I know how these things change over time but this new Pianoteq product is very, very good.
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Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#1882456 - 04/19/12 03:24 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: dmd]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dmd
I will not get into "better or best".


Actually you just did!

Originally Posted By: dmd


I have also found that layering my CA63 sound with the Pianoteq sound gives me a level of control that is fantastic. I can combine a soft blues sound from Pianoteq with the concert grand sound of my CA63 and generate just enough bite to give me exactly what I want.


Samples + modelling = "exactly what I want"!
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Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1882458 - 04/19/12 03:27 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
PrinceAl Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/16/12
Posts: 17
Loc: Tejas
Personally, I don't have an issue sampled libraries, as long as they're top notch with multiple layers and run off of a good computer.

I'm not a formal pianist, I'd probably say keyboardist if i had to sell myself short, but I've played on a grand piano, and its still a completely different experience.

But for recordings, I prefer using sampled libraries.

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#1882460 - 04/19/12 03:31 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: gvfarns]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: alekkh
Two days ago I would say that sampled is always better. As of PianoTeq 4 that just came out, I'd say modeled becomes a real challenger and actually competes with some low-end sampled pianos.


That implies that you feel that PT4 is better than the V piano.


What a strange logic.

V-Piano is not a part of the discussion.

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#1882461 - 04/19/12 03:38 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: voxpops]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3825
Loc: North Carolina
I still don't understand what is meant by realistic response. And "playability".
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Realistic sound = sampled
Realistic response = modeled

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#1882471 - 04/19/12 03:52 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: alekkh]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: alekkh
What a strange logic.

V-Piano is not a part of the discussion.


I guess for me modeled = { V piano, PT} and sampled = { sampled VST's, onboard sounds}.

You said that with PT4, now modeled competes with sampled, but if we compare the best from each set above, nothing changed in the comparison (which I think is what this thead is about...best vs best).

But from your reaction, it sounds like you were thinking low end only, which means onboard DP sounds and PT. I can see that PT4 would change that comparison.

But who cares about low end stuff? smile

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#1882472 - 04/19/12 03:53 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: Melodialworks Music]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2361
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Realistic sound = sampled

Realistic response = modeled


Exactly. So when are the brainiacs going to figure out that the answer is a combination of the two technologies. V-Piano with samples could be quite compelling. I'm still hopeful, but not going to hold my breath . . .


I thought that's what the SN Rolands were, other than v-piano?

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#1882473 - 04/19/12 03:54 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: Melodialworks Music]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 540
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Realistic sound = sampled

Realistic response = modeled


Exactly. So when are the brainiacs going to figure out that the answer is a combination of the two technologies. V-Piano with samples could be quite compelling. I'm still hopeful, but not going to hold my breath . . .


isn't that essentially what Roland Supernatural is? piano samples plus modelled effects from the v-piano?
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Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#1882481 - 04/19/12 04:00 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
musicmad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 151
Loc: London England
Even after researching the creation process of Pianoteq 4 I'm still confused about how they got there sounds from a piano ? They confirm Pianoteq 4 introduces the "grand piano D4" and that a Steinway D from Hamburg was used as reference for its main characteristics and have been used for feeding the physical mode.

So what is the Grand Piano D4 ? If they got the sound from a Steinway D ?
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#1882504 - 04/19/12 04:31 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
piano_shark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: musicmad

So what is the Grand Piano D4 ? If they got the sound from a Steinway D ?


gush, they didn't get sound from Steinway D - the algorithmic model was shaped to imitated that sound, nothing more.


And back to topic - sampled pianos are gonna die sooner or later,
modeled is the way to go. IMO V-piano and pianoteq are best piano simulation out there. (comparing to real grand of course)

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#1882538 - 04/19/12 05:27 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3825
Loc: North Carolina
Rash prediction. What makes you think sampling will fade away? Samples reproduce actual recorded piano sounds, and they do so quite well. Modeling struggles to produce a sham imitation, with a LONG way to go before matching up against a sampled library.

And, to say that V-piano and Pianoteq are the best piano simulations ... is just silly. The V does a good job. Pianoteq is abysmally bad. You've chosen one good and one bad, and called them both "best".

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#1882551 - 04/19/12 05:45 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: MacMacMac]
piano_shark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Rash prediction. What makes you think sampling will fade away? Samples reproduce actual recorded piano sounds, and they do so quite well. Modeling struggles to produce a sham imitation, with a LONG way to go before matching up against a sampled library.

And, to say that V-piano and Pianoteq are the best piano simulations ... is just silly. The V does a good job. Pianoteq is abysmally bad. You've chosen one good and one bad, and called them both "best".


too many wrong arguments in your post or lack of to even consider to response... sick

modeled piano struggling??? ha, ha, ha all i can say.
What kinda of ears have you used for comparison? laugh
Pianoteq and V-piano beats all sampled pianos already.

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#1882573 - 04/19/12 06:31 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: bfb]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: bfb
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Realistic sound = sampled

Realistic response = modeled


Exactly. So when are the brainiacs going to figure out that the answer is a combination of the two technologies. V-Piano with samples could be quite compelling. I'm still hopeful, but not going to hold my breath . . .


isn't that essentially what Roland Supernatural is? piano samples plus modelled effects from the v-piano?


Sampled attacks and everything else is modeled.
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#1882582 - 04/19/12 06:47 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: piano_shark]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2401
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: piano_shark
Pianoteq and V-piano beats all sampled pianos already.


This coming from someone who claimed to be on the brink of buying an AvantGrand just three or four days ago...and yet now you seem to have formed such an unequivocal conclusion about matters.

I question your motivation for being here to be honest.....
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#1882583 - 04/19/12 06:48 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: piano_shark]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: piano_shark

Pianoteq and V-piano beats all sampled pianos already.


That is ABSOLUTELY untrue.
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Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
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#1882584 - 04/19/12 06:51 PM Re: Sampled VS Modelled Pianos ??? [Re: musicmad]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3050
Loc: Oregon
Suggestion:

When at the zoo, don't feed the monkeys.

Same applies to the aquarium.
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