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#1885402 - 04/24/12 01:42 AM Ethics/Technicians/ Status
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2334
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I first of all don't want to create a thread that will incite name calling, insults or any thing that contravenes the posting rules of the forum. I would also welcome any comments from people in other professions in regards to this topic...after all, most professional people carry some ethics with their field of practice, even if not written.

I keep seeing posted in this forum, time and time again, PTG members stating that non members don't become RPT's because they fear the testing. There was in fact a thread titled "Resistance to the PTG Tuning Exam" a few years back in which I beleive Ryan listed some of the reasons he gleened from the postings as...

1. Loss of privacy
2. Time involved
3. Concern about not passing
4. Concern about unfair treatment
5. Passing not required to be successful technician
6. RPT Elitism
7. Cost prohibitive

Regardless of the fact that these reasons, amongst many others (such as higher testing standards elsewhere)
are in fact valid in the eyes of professionals who work as piano techs...the somewhat taunting statement that "fear" is the only reason for avoiding the tests to get RPT status, needs to be looked at in the context of ethics.

The PTG has an Code of Ethics for its members in which it is stated....

" 6. I will promote, in any way that I can, good will toward my profession and toward the music industry."

Now, it is hard for me to put in words the feelings I get when somebody who doesn't know me, lumps me into a group of people who they consider incompetant. To make this much clearer I will quote Bill Bremmer on his posting #630315...

"....I came to the conclusion long ago that there is ultimately only one reason not to join PTG and to take the exams: FEAR.

All other justifications and excuses end up with fear as the root cause. This includes virtually all of those who claim that they know what they're doing and have all the business they can handle. The only people for whom fear doesn't apply completely is for those who are working at gaining enough skill to pass the exam. They are smart enough to know that they can't pass yet but are motivated to learn enough to do so. Until then, they are afraid to attempt the exam lest they fail..."

I can assure you as a working professional in my field in which I have a formal education in, with its own testing, I find these generic comments and taunts by (some)PTG members as degrading and insulting. I don't fear tests, I have satisfied loyal customers, my competance was tested and acredited by an institution, and these taunts and claims DO NOT PROMOTE GOOD WILL TOWARDS ME OR ANY OTHER PROFESSIONAL IN THIS FIELD.

Is publically bringing another professionals competance into question by implying they fear a test contravening the specific code of ethics I quoted? If so, how much value does that code have?
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1885510 - 04/24/12 07:14 AM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Emmery:

You are digging pretty far into the past, and singling someone out, to make an example. I think it best if you confronted Bill directly on this one.

No one has to look far within themselves to find fear as a motivator. I think there is much of it in the RPTs that disparage those tuners that are not members of the PTG. Like, "If there are tuners that are successful and competent without RPT status, then does my RPT status really mean that I am successful and competent? No, it would mean that I need something else to be successful and competent. Wait, let's not go there. What if I DON'T have that something else? Then I might NOT be successful and competent. NO! Let's just stick with what is safe, so as not to experience FEAR. Us RPTs are successful and competent because we are RPTs. Those that aren't RPTs are not successful and competent."

None of us need look very far to find the same sort of things in our own selves. Pick a favorite political, religious or sport topic and the same thing can happen. Sure, to do so is "unethical" (unless you are a Nazi...) We all have goals that we cannot actually attain.

Now really, Emmery, ask yourself why this bothers you so much. If you were a PTG member, I could see it as a just cause to call out another member on an organizational ethics issue. But that is not the case.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1885609 - 04/24/12 10:41 AM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Emmery

6. I will promote, in any way that I can, good will toward my profession and toward the music industry."
Now, it is hard for me to put in words the feelings I get when somebody who doesn't know me, lumps me into a group of people who they consider incompetent.


Here it is from the 3 wise men up in Albany Appeals;

“By judging a person, not on their merits, but by which group they belong to, this forms the basis for discrimination”

Originally Posted By: Emmery

Is publically bringing another professionals competence into question by implying they fear a test contravening the specific code of ethics I quoted? If so, how much value does that code have?


Good question, for which the answer would be yes.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Now really, Emmery, ask yourself why this bothers you so much. If you were a PTG member, I could see it as a just cause to call out another member on an organizational ethics issue. But that is not the case.


I don’t think this is a bother to Emmery but he has valid observations and opinions along with every other PW member here. There is an organizational ethics issue that has been noted locally here.

When people speak of ethic guidelines they usually have the general public in mind, not the inward focus, member to member ethics,which the PTG retains.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1885634 - 04/24/12 11:42 AM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Emmery, you start off your thread with statements of good intentions, then a bit later in the same post you post your actual cause in bold capitalized text. Of course you must know this is the e-communication equivalent of shouting. I really seems like you are angry and upset, probably hurt and frustrated. When I get into this mode (as we all do from time to time), I find it does me best to take a little walk and breathe some fresh air.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1885638 - 04/24/12 11:46 AM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

It’s all very well to point fingers and place blame, but it only serves to obfuscate the real issue.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1885648 - 04/24/12 12:15 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2334
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Unright, my comment relates to the ethics of "promoting good will". This, in and of itself, is a worthwhile endeavor. The many reasons for not joining or testing have been stated by lots of people...they are valid reasons for these folks. One does not promote good will in the industry by questioning the motives and sincerity of others based on narrow minded stereotypes ect..

I know of a small area inside of Toronto that is rife with crime, drugs ect.. There are still good people who live there and risk their lives every day to do so for many different reasons. Some can't afford to buy into a nicer part of town, others may have emotional ties to the area they grew up in. Some feel they can make a difference to the community and keep it from getting boarded up like we have seen in some larger cities. To an outsider, is it correct to assume that these good people choose to stay there because they are criminals? Is it correct to assume they have fears about leaving or fitting in elsewhere? One with a very narrow mind set would be inclined to think so. There is a church located in this district. Is its capacity to function there to be considered suspect because drugs are being dealt out of the two homes on either side of it? No good will is promoted by insulting people with a stereotype assumption that ignores their true motives...it is insulting to them, ethically wrong, and would only serve the purpose of recruiting them away to another district. This stereotype labeling is intended to drive them away and abandon the very community they love and wish to improve. A vicious circle develops where the good influence from the community is diluted or recruited away with unjust labelling, and this further strengthens the stereotype views that started it all.

I have an extremely strong distaste for polarized mindset that thinks the answers to a problem exist only at the extremities of the poles. It brings to mind a conversation I had with an American while visiting Buffalo NY. He had a bumper sticker on his car that said "America...Love it, or Leave it". I asked the fellow why the saying "America, stay and improve it" is not seen on bumper stickers and he just gave me that deer in the headlights gaze. The grey area in the middle is a hard sell to some folks.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1885651 - 04/24/12 12:27 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: UnrightTooner]
Jbyron Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 482
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Emmery:

No one has to look far within themselves to find fear as a motivator. I think there is much of it in the RPTs that disparage those tuners that are not members of the PTG. Like, "If there are tuners that are successful and competent without RPT status, then does my RPT status really mean that I am successful and competent? No, it would mean that I need something else to be successful and competent. Wait, let's not go there. What if I DON'T have that something else? Then I might NOT be successful and competent. NO! Let's just stick with what is safe, so as not to experience FEAR. Us RPTs are successful and competent because we are RPTs. Those that aren't RPTs are not successful and competent."




Jeff, I think you hit a great portion of the nail on the head. I had a similar analysis but couldn't find a way to articulate it as well as you have here.


_________________________
Tuner-Technician



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#1885655 - 04/24/12 12:34 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Jbyron:

Hans Christian Andersen did it even better with The Emperor's New Clothes" wink
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1885692 - 04/24/12 01:48 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I find it rather sickening that it is generally the same two people pointing fingers and creating trouble in here for PTG members. It is as if you are making a little plan secretly, and then you go for it, together. Like a couple of little children with nothing better to do but push other people's buttons because you do not care of a particular organization.

Why don't you go after NON members for a change who do lousy work? I don't think I've ever heard you whine about them? Why not? There are just as many if not more of them out there.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1885747 - 04/24/12 03:49 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20778
Loc: Oakland
All too often, those who do good work go after the ones who do bad work, no matter what their affiliation. However, that was probably not the way you meant it!

I think that you will agree, Jerry, that telling a customer that someone else has done something wrong to their piano is one of the worst things that we have to deal with in this business. Nobody is happy when that happens.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1885789 - 04/24/12 05:19 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2334
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I won't comment on how many lousy workers are out there from members or non members Jerry since nobody has done an overall study of customer complaints or anything that would show the real numbers. I do, as many other independants now do, document, photograph and take notes on customer complaints or lousy/questionable work I occasionally come across. It allows me to keep track of what I fixed separate from other peoples work if more issues arise with the piano and need to be dealt with. My invoices also document the specifics for the same reason.

Your conspiracy theory is laughable Jerry as is your name calling. Dan and I do not share a territory and live thousands of miles apart and I was unaware of his posting until several weeks after it was posted. I am an independant tech that thinks for myself without the need of a mothership to guide me or give me support I can otherwise garner myself. As independant techs, many of us do talk to each other no different from what PTGers do at their meetings...it costs us nothing to do so and we develop a shared sense of appreciation for each others advice and often develop life long friendships. Are you envious that this is possible amongst people without paying $ to do so Jerry?

I see that numerous PTGers openly commented on Dan's posting no different than I did myself when I seen it. I wonder what happened to them all? Oh yeah...they found out it was one of their own...boy that ethics coin has two sides now doesn't it? And suddenly your all sickened by that which isn't so bad when its thrown at someone outside your group...really Jerry, you need to think these things through.

I have never said I didn't outright care for the PTG Jerry. If its members respect non members, I give them due respect. If the organization wants to promote education, qualifications, status, and provide a roof over the techs heads to do so, that is a decent enough reason to exist. I am friends with several members who go about their business the same way I do, and have never really locked horns with any of my locals.

If however, a gang mentality exists amongst its members, or the public is misdirected into turning their backs on non members for whatever reason, I will clarify that matter, publically to all of my abilities. The snobbery and elitist attitudes will get put in their place. If The PTG tries to establish policies with other institutions that can lock out job applicants or tenders from non members, I will do all I can to stop that also under the human rights codes and fair business practice laws that govern my local. Until some regulatory body comes into existance that says otherwise, I beleive that all techs should have a fair and equal opportunity to ply their trade without interferance, being pressured, or unfairly labelled from private organizations or their members.

If recruitment is low perhaps members should look at how other organizations deal with this. The Army uses the slogan "Be all you can be" to get them in. I doubt they would do so well if it read "Are you chicken s**t and can't shoot?"
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1885821 - 04/24/12 06:02 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3636
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I see that numerous PTGers openly commented on Dan's posting no different than I did myself when I seen it. I wonder what happened to them all? Oh yeah...they found out it was one of their own...boy that ethics coin has two sides now doesn't it? And suddenly your all sickened by that which isn't so bad when its thrown at someone outside your group...really Jerry, you need to think these things through.


I personally knew who the person was before the mention of PTG. I stopped posting because there is nothing else to add to the thread. Also I know a few other members knew who was involved.

Once again it's between the client and the piano owner.

One our local chapter was attacked, I lost interest in the discussion because the posters here know nothing of what
goes on at our local meetings.

We had a great meeting last night here in my shop. A packed house, great technical and a friendly environment.
10 of us had dinner before the meeting.
Those not feeling the love did not attend. We did have 4 new members present so our chapter is growing. I think we had 6 join the guild in the last 6 months.
I even shared the secret hand shake with them. grin
_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#1885858 - 04/24/12 06:33 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
GEEZE, talk about rants! I won't get involved with any of it, for sure. I said what I meant and I will stick to it. I won't answer any of the insane comments that followed. PTG certainly does rather routinely handle complaints from the general public but I can see why they cut this one off because they knew where it was coming from.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1885898 - 04/24/12 07:52 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Name calling Emmery? If anyone here is name calling, it would not be me..... If anyone is slandering in here, that too, would not be me....

What I find sickening is the constant rants that you place here on PW against pretty much, all PTG members and your word twisting. Better re-read your own posts again maybe? Your public rants and complaints far outweigh your public pats on the back for what the PTG tries to do and that is to educate and at least set some standards that those of us that have passed, have done so for ourselves, not for you.

Public misdirection? Your distaste for RPT's is way out of line as is your condemnation of the PTG in general. As I said, re-read your own posts again.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1885904 - 04/24/12 08:06 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: Rod Verhnjak
Once again it's between the client and the piano owner.


No it isn’t. The complaint is between the dealer, a paying client, and the technician.

Originally Posted By: Rod Verhnjak
One our local chapter was attacked; I lost interest in the discussion because the posters here know nothing of what goes on at our local meetings.


One thing the posters here know for sure; it is the obvious fact that not one member of this chapter can find the intestinal fortitude to lodge a formal complaint against this technician.

Numerous members of this chapter, including you Rod, have had knowledge of this technician's sub-par work for more than a decade. And you all have done what about it?

ZERO.

This local chapter was not attacked in any sense of the word; the local chapter members, by their continuing, intentional refusal to put one of their own under scrutiny, has brought the entire reputation of all local technicians and this technical field into disrepute.

Moreover, and more importantly, this local chapter by its failure to stand up and advocate for proper ethics and improved work from this technician has brought the good name of the PTG organization into disrepute in no uncertain terms.

This chapter, by its non action, has brought this down upon their own heads and now with their continuing obfuscation they are dragging every, single member of the PTG locally, nationally, and internationally down with them.

Congratulations.

Where the public in concerned it is not enough to avoid wrongdoing; one must also avoid the appearance of wrongdoing.

This is ethics 101……
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1885906 - 04/24/12 08:11 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: BDB]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I don't see that at all BDB,
Quote:
those that do good work, go after the ones that do bad work, no matter what their affiliation.
I most certainly do not see any non members here, going after bad, non members or belittling them for doing rotten work. But, I do see the opposite continually.

I didn't say that it wasn't difficult BDB. None of us likes it.


Edited by Jerry Groot RPT (04/24/12 08:19 PM)
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1885941 - 04/24/12 09:09 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20778
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
I don't see that at all BDB,
Quote:
those that do good work, go after the ones that do bad work, no matter what their affiliation.
I most certainly do not see any non members here, going after bad, non members or belittling them for doing rotten work. But, I do see the opposite continually.

I didn't say that it wasn't difficult BDB. None of us likes it.


You seem to be missing that I meant "going after" in the sense of going to the piano after the incompetent has messed it up.

I do not poach customers, so I do not run into many other technicians. If I run into poor work, the customer already knows about it. There is nothing much else I could do, except to fix the piano and suggest that the customer not use that person again.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1885967 - 04/24/12 10:21 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Oh, well, that isn't what you wrote. smile I understand what you mean though and you're right. We all encounter the same thing. I go in and sometimes look at the piano as if to say HUH!!???? Then listen to the client and let them complain, give an estimate and fix it and then they're happy again which is best.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1886009 - 04/25/12 12:07 AM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20778
Loc: Oakland
That is the problem with bad puns! Sorry for the misunderstanding!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1886146 - 04/25/12 07:33 AM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
.....

If however, a gang mentality exists amongst its members, or the public is misdirected into turning their backs on non members for whatever reason, I will clarify that matter, publically to all of my abilities. The snobbery and elitist attitudes will get put in their place. If The PTG tries to establish policies with other institutions that can lock out job applicants or tenders from non members, I will do all I can to stop that also under the human rights codes and fair business practice laws that govern my local. Until some regulatory body comes into existance that says otherwise, I beleive that all techs should have a fair and equal opportunity to ply their trade without interferance, being pressured, or unfairly labelled from private organizations or their members.

.....


Sounds like a definition of, well, a Guild. If the shoe fits...
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1886249 - 04/25/12 11:14 AM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Rod Verhnjak]
Plowboy Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2173
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: Rod Verhnjak

I personally knew who the person was before the mention of PTG. I stopped posting because there is nothing else to add to the thread. Also I know a few other members knew who was involved.

Once again it's between the client and the piano owner.


Please, correct me if I'm wrong here.

Apparently, an incompetent technician has been using guild affiliation as proof of his abilities for some time, all while ripping off his customers.

So, then, what is the value of the PTG to me as a customer?
_________________________
Gary Schenk

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#1886251 - 04/25/12 11:18 AM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
No Gary, actually, most of "us" in here knew exactly where that thread was heading after a short period of time which is why we all stop posting for a while. We could see that the thread was heading into yet, another PTG bashing thread and an RPT bashing thread which is pretty much what it turned into.

What is the value of another technician continually bashing others anyway?

There is ALWAYS two sides to every story. So far, you have only heard one side.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1886278 - 04/25/12 12:19 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Plowboy Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2173
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Thanks for the reply, Jerry. Agree about getting both sides of the story.
_________________________
Gary Schenk

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#1886281 - 04/25/12 12:23 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20778
Loc: Oakland
Gary, when I said that Registered Piano Technician status was of very little value, that was exactly what I meant. There are piano technicians who are good, there are those who are indifferent, there are those who are bad because they are incompetent, and there are those who are bad because they are crooked. There are those who fall into each of those categories with and without any status conferred on them by any agency. At best, status from any organization only means that the person who has it once was able to demonstrate a certain minimal ability. After all, do you believe that everyone who has passed a drivers license exam drives as well as you do? smile

As for hearing only one side of the story, when there is equal opportunity to speak, the side that does not usually has something to hide.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1886282 - 04/25/12 12:25 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Plowboy]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3636
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Plowboy
Originally Posted By: Rod Verhnjak

I personally knew who the person was before the mention of PTG. I stopped posting because there is nothing else to add to the thread. Also I know a few other members knew who was involved.

Once again it's between the client and the piano owner.


Please, correct me if I'm wrong here.

Apparently, an incompetent technician has been using guild affiliation as proof of his abilities for some time, all while ripping off his customers.

So, then, what is the value of the PTG to me as a customer?


This technician uses his affiliation with his employer as his credentials more than anything. In the last 130 PTG meeting I have hosted this tech as perhaps attended 10 meeting.

People that hire him do so on his credentials he speaks off but him being an RPT is not the reason.

_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#1886283 - 04/25/12 12:26 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

There is no intent to bash anyone Jerry. I have already mentioned previously many times it is the facts of the case that led to its conclusion.

All of what I presented can be substantiated by numerous witnesses involved.

The complaint is not mine to have; it is from a paying client of the technician.

The dealer has just posted confirmation of some facts, in part, on the Value of RPT thread.

The other side is welcome to join PW and present any rebuttal they would like to. That avenue is open at any time.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1886284 - 04/25/12 12:31 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3636
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

The complaint is not mine to have; it is from a paying client of the technician.


So why did you bring it up and not him (a dealer here with many post)?

I figured to bash PTG and our local chapter.
_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#1886290 - 04/25/12 12:40 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

How many times do you need to go over the same material? I was asked to review an invoice. I had the claims on the invoice peer-reviewed here by technicians from all walks of life, many of whom do not reside in this immediate area.

So in other words the dealer received a variety of technical opinions on this and several other forums about the same matter. He can make his decision from that.

Unfortunately in this case it involves a member of the PTG. As anyone can read from the threads this was a minor issue of the entire matter.

It is the protestations of other PTG members that is making this a big deal. If you want to spend your time defending the indefensible that is your choice.

I believe you protest too much.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1886304 - 04/25/12 01:00 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3636
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

If you want to spend your time defending the indefensible that is your choice.

I believe you protest too much.


I am defending our chapter whom you keep on bashing. I am NOT defending the technician in question.
It is our chapter that is indefensible.

How many times do I need to make that clear.

As you have written a few times, there is more to the story!!!



_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#1886310 - 04/25/12 01:16 PM Re: Ethics/Technicians/ Status [Re: Emmery]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Not true Dan. It is NOT the protestations of other PTG members that is making this a big deal. It is you Dan. It is you, that started this whole thing up. It is you that did all of the complaining and posting. It is you that posted the original threads and brought up the fact that this person was an RPT (not just a tuner but you had to mention an organization again, as usual) and then started the whining about PTG and RPT and on it goes.

Now you're complaining because some of us decide to stick up for the PTG group as a whole? That is so typical and yes it is, PTG bashing on your part no matter how you look at it.

You are not looking at the PTG overall as the kind of group that it is. To better educate us (as in you and me and everyone else) as technicians. Not to police every tuner in the whole world including Canada where you reside.

It is unmistakeably and obviously clear, the true intent of your intentions was not solely, just to point out that this particular person was a bad technician, which for the record, I think is deplorable in the first place, technician bashing publicly, but, to also belittle the meaning of the PTG as much as possible while you are at it, the same as with what BDB is now beginning to do.

This thread, over all, is not much different than any other PTG bashing thread from you guys. What is the point? Why the need to bash anything, anyone, or any organization? Not once, not twice, not three times but a lot more than that over the course of your time spent here on PW?

I suppose, if a piano teacher was a lousy teacher, one had better hire all piano teachers that are NOT members of the Music Teachers Association then too right? One is bad, they're all bad?

The dealer also said that the customer rejected any and all offers, which tells me that apparently, for whatever reason, the client wants to keep that man as their technician. So be it. That is their choice. The dealer also regrets that this whole thing has taken a turn for the worse.

My questions and the questions of others, rarely get answered. Instead, they get walked around or avoided.

1. Why bring up the fact that it is PTG if for no other reason that to bash?
2. Why bring up that person is an RPT, if no other reason that to bash the RPT staus or, the PTG for whatever reasons you can think of? Can't you just say that this person does lousy work and why without the use of credentials?
3. What do you do with all NON MEMBERS of the PTG???? Do you also go after them with as much vengeance?
4. Why do you not post NON members in here too?

5. Why do we see PTG members here NOT bashing the lousy work that NON members do? Especially naming names of all things. It is because we are trying to be ethical. Perhaps something, others can learn.. Then again, maybe not....

_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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