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Please, correct me if I'm wrong here.

Apparently, an incompetent technician has been using guild affiliation as proof of his abilities for some time, all while ripping off his customers.

So, then, what is the value of the PTG to me as a customer?

No Gary, actually, most of "us" in here knew exactly where that thread was heading after a short period of time which is why we all stop posting for a while. We could see that the thread was heading into yet, another PTG bashing thread and an RPT bashing thread which is pretty much what it turned into.

What is the value of another technician continually bashing others anyway?

There is ALWAYS two sides to every story. So far, you have only heard one side.

Thanks for the reply, Jerry. Agree about getting both sides of the story.

Gary, when I said that Registered Piano Technician status was of very little value, that was exactly what I meant. There are piano technicians who are good, there are those who are indifferent, there are those who are bad because they are incompetent, and there are those who are bad because they are crooked. There are those who fall into each of those categories with and without any status conferred on them by any agency. At best, status from any organization only means that the person who has it once was able to demonstrate a certain minimal ability. After all, do you believe that everyone who has passed a drivers license exam drives as well as you do?

As for hearing only one side of the story, when there is equal opportunity to speak, the side that does not usually has something to hide.

This technician uses his affiliation with his employer as his credentials more than anything. In the last 130 PTG meeting I have hosted this tech as perhaps attended 10 meeting.

People that hire him do so on his credentials he speaks off but him being an RPT is not the reason.

There is no intent to bash anyone Jerry. I have already mentioned previously many times it is the facts of the case that led to its conclusion.

All of what I presented can be substantiated by numerous witnesses involved.

The complaint is not mine to have; it is from a paying client of the technician.

The dealer has just posted confirmation of some facts, in part, on the Value of RPT thread.

The other side is welcome to join PW and present any rebuttal they would like to. That avenue is open at any time.

So why did you bring it up and not him (a dealer here with many post)?

I figured to bash PTG and our local chapter.

How many times do you need to go over the same material? I was asked to review an invoice. I had the claims on the invoice peer-reviewed here by technicians from all walks of life, many of whom do not reside in this immediate area.

So in other words the dealer received a variety of technical opinions on this and several other forums about the same matter. He can make his decision from that.

Unfortunately in this case it involves a member of the PTG. As anyone can read from the threads this was a minor issue of the entire matter.

It is the protestations of other PTG members that is making this a big deal. If you want to spend your time defending the indefensible that is your choice.

I believe you protest too much.

I am defending our chapter whom you keep on bashing. I am NOT defending the technician in question.
It is our chapter that is indefensible.

How many times do I need to make that clear.

As you have written a few times, there is more to the story!!!

Not true Dan. It is NOT the protestations of other PTG members that is making this a big deal. It is you Dan. It is you, that started this whole thing up. It is you that did all of the complaining and posting. It is you that posted the original threads and brought up the fact that this person was an RPT (not just a tuner but you had to mention an organization again, as usual) and then started the whining about PTG and RPT and on it goes.

Now you're complaining because some of us decide to stick up for the PTG group as a whole? That is so typical and yes it is, PTG bashing on your part no matter how you look at it.

You are not looking at the PTG overall as the kind of group that it is. To better educate us (as in you and me and everyone else) as technicians. Not to police every tuner in the whole world including Canada where you reside.

It is unmistakeably and obviously clear, the true intent of your intentions was not solely, just to point out that this particular person was a bad technician, which for the record, I think is deplorable in the first place, technician bashing publicly, but, to also belittle the meaning of the PTG as much as possible while you are at it, the same as with what BDB is now beginning to do.

This thread, over all, is not much different than any other PTG bashing thread from you guys. What is the point? Why the need to bash anything, anyone, or any organization? Not once, not twice, not three times but a lot more than that over the course of your time spent here on PW?

I suppose, if a piano teacher was a lousy teacher, one had better hire all piano teachers that are NOT members of the Music Teachers Association then too right? One is bad, they're all bad?

The dealer also said that the customer rejected any and all offers, which tells me that apparently, for whatever reason, the client wants to keep that man as their technician. So be it. That is their choice. The dealer also regrets that this whole thing has taken a turn for the worse.

My questions and the questions of others, rarely get answered. Instead, they get walked around or avoided.

1. Why bring up the fact that it is PTG if for no other reason that to bash?
2. Why bring up that person is an RPT, if no other reason that to bash the RPT staus or, the PTG for whatever reasons you can think of? Can't you just say that this person does lousy work and why without the use of credentials?
3. What do you do with all NON MEMBERS of the PTG???? Do you also go after them with as much vengeance?
4. Why do you not post NON members in here too?

5. Why do we see PTG members here NOT bashing the lousy work that NON members do? Especially naming names of all things. It is because we are trying to be ethical. Perhaps something, others can learn.. Then again, maybe not....

Bold added for emphasis.

Here is a Topic that Dan started a while ago to try to help a customer out in a questionable deal: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/topic/107049/gonew/1.html

No, I do not think Dan targets the PTG. He does act like Don Quixote sometimes, though.

The Portland Chapter had a good get-together last night. About 15 members gathering together at Classic Pianos in Portland (nothing like that new-piano-smell!) to gab a little, talk about their week, chew over a few issues, and then have a technical on Impact Hammers. 3 new applicants on hand, too!

People dragged out their favorites, and their modifications, we watched a video from Reyburn, we had a jig made by Joe Garrett that featured a tuning pin driven into a hunk of pinblock with a flag at the becket and the bottom of the pin; easily demonstrating the distortion of the pin, top to bottom, as the hammers impact and traditional were used. We had a dozen different hammers, from Schaff, Mehaffy, Reyburn and several others. Nifty!

John Rhodes brought a new tool he's playing with; a small tool with two short 'bumps' for reaching in and grabbing the repetition spring on the jack side and tweaking a little tension in or out. Perhaps he'll market that one..time will tell!

Good fun. Good company.

That's what the Guild is to me, and that's what I enjoy.

Last month; Removing broken agraffes

Next month; John Rhodes on Action Inertia and Geometry

June; Aural Tuning Seminar for Associates

Are there bad apples in the barrel? No doubt.
Is there anything else like this in the world? No.

Respectfully,
Portland Chapter Prez,
I am,
Always trying to be better,
And the Guild offers that possibility,

Jeff:

There is an ongoing Topic on impact hammers. Could you post a comparison of the tuning pin twist left by a conventional hammer and an impact hammer there? https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...in%20with%20Cyberhammer.html#Post1885440

Ya' know what folks?

I think it is fine for the active PTG members to post what is really going on at the meetings and such. It would mean even more if some posts were made about this Topic! Like could you give examples of when ethics were discussed or enforced?

(Tentatively sticking my toe in this murky water...)

I've been following all of this closely for the past couple of weeks, and maybe a summation of the facts might help bring everyone's perspective back down to Earth. I could be wrong...

Dan(or is it "Don Q.?" ) has posted multiple threads dealing with this situation, and it seems to me has endeavored to present his version of the facts of this as objectively as possible, with as much supporting documentation as possible. It also seems to me, with Norbert's recent post on the subject, Dan's presentation has been corroborated. In short, there's a hack on the loose in his neighborhood which is costing him and other competent techs in the area money, time, and prestige, and this has been going on for some years. The lemon juice in the paper cut of all of this is that the hack in question is an RPT, and it SEEMS to Dan and others, apparently, that the local PTG chapter or any other level of the PTG bureaucracy has chosen, or is powerless, to do anything to reprimand the hack in question. Maybe Dan didn't do the best job in stating his case regarding the PTG, and maybe it knocked a bunch of olds chips off shoulders, but it has now devolved into a public PTG vs. non-PTG brawl, which I'm sure the customer side of these forums is watching with bated breath. Everything from questioning Dan's integrity to name calling - on *both* sides - has ensued. Are we non-PTG'ers really a bunch of scaredy-cats? Probably, to widely varying degrees and a multitude of reasons, generally speaking(there are *always* exceptions, of course). Are RPT's a bunch of gentrified good ol' boys whose primary concern is their status? Certainly not for most, but the few who are taint the perception of the rest/majority, and everything said in defense against that perception comes off as reinforcing that perception.

I think what we ought to ask ourselves is, what good continuing to lob the same old turds at one another does us as a body of professionals? That, next time our knee starts to jerk at something we read here, maybe we should count to ten, take a deep breath, and try to look at what is said with a different perspective, and perhaps spend more energy trying to find a solution to the issue rather than charge up our phaser banks in defense of our status, whether RPT or no.

I hope my 2¢ doesn't fall flat...

(pun intended)

I do agree that it appears, the person in question, should be looked into as an RPT. Privately, I have told Dan what to do and what steps to take that I know of. I am still awaiting a response from home office on my questions that I asked of them yesterday. When I find out, I will try my best to offer my solutions to that problem too. None of us, wants an RPT in, that really, should not be in... But, that is also, not a decision that I can make. That must be made by the powers that be.

Just so you know by the way, I might not have time to come on anymore tonight. I volunteer as a driver for the Ronald McDonald House of Western Michigan from 6-9 PM.

I probably won't be on at all next week either (or very little ?) due to a whole lot of concert work going on all week long for the Gilmore Festival here. It is looking like 12-14 hour days for me.

I think what gets lost in the Frey, is that PTG puts on dozens and dozens and dozens of classes each year at various locations all over America. They bring in the best of the best for all of their classes. They even ask US what classes we would like to see?

They are trying to teach us to be better technicians. To be honest, to be ethical, to always carry morals. Those that care to learn the most, attend at least 1 or 2 of these a year. Those that care the least never attend anything at all, ever.

PTG meetings are not meant to just teach but, we are also asked, to be teachers. I have given many meetings over the years. Am I the best teacher? Heck no. Do I know the most? HECK NO! But, I try to teach what I do know, as well as I can.

Our chapter meetings are open meetings. Meaning, they are FREE to any and all non members to attend any time they wish.

We actively ask the non members to attend. No obligation... Just come. We would love to have you. Unfortunately, most don't show up.

For our chapter meetings, we offer classes on just about everything you can imagine. We even paid to have Bill Bremmer (I set that class up myself) come and present his EBVT III tuning to us. We had a great turnout for it and Bill did a wonderful job.

We offer regulation classes, voicing classes, tuning classes, sometimes it is hands on classes. Business classes. We offer concert tuning classes. We have technicians from Yamaha, Steinway, Kawai and other companies come in to present classes on a number of topics. Don Mannino has presented many classes for us at different times over the years. Kent Webb has also presented classes at our local PTG chapter.

Do we discuss ethics? A lot. As a matter of fact, we discussed them in depth at our very last meeting along with a reprimand of a certain technician who some of us felt was being a bit unethical at times about certain things that I will not go into.

As I have said before, I have had 3 different RPT's over the course of the last 38 years, kicked out of the guild for various reason. So, do they lose their RPT status? Most definitely. For the right reasons.

Right now, I have to leave. I have a 4 PM appointment but, I do agree that this should remain civil. Not biased.

+ 100, Jerry. Absolutely correct.

Dan, instead of slamming this guy, why not teach him?

It is hard to teach people who are either dishonest or have a higher opinion of their own talents than anyone else's. In order for someone to be taught, they need to be willing to learn.

There are people who participate in this board who are not willing to learn. Some of them have stellar reputations, despite their shortcomings, and refuse to even examine criticism of their theories, no matter how simple it may be to do so.

Under these circumstances, the best I can do is point out the shortcomings so that anyone who is willing to think independently will be encouraged to do so.

There are extremely fine lines separating "guild" from "cartel" and there is a reason that many countries have outright banned guilds by law. In comparison to several hundred years ago, thousands of guilds have been banned or eliminated by law leaving only a few to this day. In every case where wide scale elimination of guilds took place historically, industry and trades flourished afterwards. Our present antitrust laws are in fact modelled upon and derived from the original statutes by which the guilds were abolished in Europe.

My comments in regards to my opposition to lock out policies established with institutions is tied in with the economic term "rent seeking". By definition, it is to expend resources in order to gain wealth by increasing one's share of currently existing wealth, instead of trying to create new wealth. It is done most often by manipulating the social or political environment in which economic activities occur. If this fails, guaranteeing that members arn't hacks or assuring some kind of quality control is in effect on members, comes next. Upon failing that, non members are discredited or "classed" below the members, with no factual base behind it.

In reality, there is no guarantee for the public if the guild members are not inclined to speak up or clean house, and there is no quality control if the public's complaints are meaningless and not acted upon.

Mr. Bremmer, your following statement is misleading..

"PTG certainly does rather routinely handle complaints from the general public but I can see why they cut this one off because they knew where it was coming from."

Picking up a phone and listening to public complaints may be your idea ofhandling it, but if the PTG cannot act upon a public complaint because of internal policies that forbid it, and will only proceed to do something (behind closed door sessions)if another PTG member lodges the complaint ....what exactly is being handled for the general public?
Sadly, nothing.