Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Why Johnny and Jill can't read ...[ahem}... music

First of all, it was Johnny and Jill about a million years. Then Dick and Jane.

Today it should probably be Jayden and Isabella...

But the problem remains. The majority of students who come to me, transfer students, can't read music. I don't mean that they are not excellent readers. I don't even mean that their reading is somewhat weak.

They barely read the treble clef, and they have no idea how to read the bass clef.

My point is that if English (or any mother language) were taught with the same degree of success as music-reading, perhaps one or two percent of all students finishing high school would be able to read books.

It's that bad.

Part of this can be blamed on zero support for what we do. Reading music is not part of school. It is not a subject or a requirement. No one has to read music to get into college. Obviously that is a huge factor.

But how much of it has to do with totally wrong or inefficient ways of teaching music reading? I think that 50% of the failure has to rest on the shoulders of teachers, and that is probably conservative.

It seems to me that, in general, that the teachers who regularly participate in this forum are in the minority of teachers who are doing everything possible to "beat the odds". I suspect that if I got student from many of the teachers here, who happend to move to my area and stumble into my world, I would probably be overjoyed.

But what I get coming from other teachers in this area is astoundingly awful. That does not mean, of course, that there are not other good teachers here. It does suggest that those luckys students who have really good teachers and who do not move probably stick with them. They are the fortunate ones.

I'll start it off with these ideas. I do not claim to have all the answers to this huge problem. I'm still trying to find out some of the "questions", because each year a few students who I mentally "cross of my list" of people who might do well totally shock me and take of like rockets. And there are always students I have who seem to be moving along great, then suddenly they lose interest and disappear.

Gary, I believe you are being too kind! How about 95%?

I have students who seem to pick up music reading fairly easily, and others seem to struggle a bit more. I have come up with some more creative ways to teach the ones that have more difficulty with reading. I completely agree that teachers need to focus on music reading as part of learning to play.

You live in a much different world than I do, Gary.

LOL

If you have anything that works, please share it!

The worst that can happen is that you will mention some idea of technique that some of us already know.

I know what you mean, Gary, having moved recently to the area. It seems there are a lot of "schools" where they run through students in the guise of music education, but really it's glorified babysitting. There are fine teachers, too, for sure (I have actually met some of them), but those are not the ones that belong to guilds or hold to any standard.

On top of that, you have students who are more than likely not in a musical family - the idea of every home having a piano in the living room a couple of generations since past - let alone have ever heard of traditional American folk tunes other than Happy Birthday. These songs were always taught in schools, camps, and even sung at home (I remember my mother singing German and French folk songs to me, along with American when I was young). So now the only context that many kids today have is what's heard on the radio in mainstream pop music.

So the idea of reading music is foreign and even questionable as to it's necessity in learning to play an instrument. It really is an uphill battle, and I try to make note reading as easy as possible without allowing students to get away with not learning to read the notes. But it does take time, especially with transfers to get them caught up to where they should be.

You really have to live here to believe what we are up against. And about holding to any standard: where I live, you just have to create your own standard.

This is all true, BUT:

Since I start all beginners under the age of eight with a parent and keep a parent in the lesson, even at age eight for awhile, I can educate on the fly. I am always connected (wifi), I am on the computer typing up weekly lesson assignments. The parents and I are both pointing to the music (notes) and matching them to my chart. Mostly the parents are pointing as I teach THEM how to teach their kids, at home. And we are continually flipping the chart up and down, testing to see that the notes are really getting in.

And my kids all use YouTube. (I don't use YouTube in lessons except with permission from the parents.) Example:

A student brought in something by Martha Mier. I don't know her stuff. So I sightread it (which goes right into our recent thread about swing), then we found people who played it on YouTube. I discussed the fact that one "performance" was pretty good, but it was too fast for the student to learn anything. I then played it at that fast tempo but repeated it, more slowly to show it could be effective at a slower tempo.

These kids have LIGHTNING fast hand/eye coordination and are becoming the fastest group of young readers I have ever had.

<sigh>
As I said, almost EVERY transfer student I get can't read. I can usually fix the problems, if the transfers stay with me, but can you imagine what it is like for kids over 12, coming in with YEARS of lessons, to be quite obviously reading at a level lower than some of the seven year-olds who are leaving?

And it's not just reading. It's everything: scales, chords, you name it. Anyone here can say, "I am a piano teacher", and they DO. It's really quite frightening.

Without any dog in this fight; and fully recognizing the precise problem you are addressing, Gary; I am going to play devil's advocate for a moment::

It is a well known fact that individuals develop their capacities for reading letters and words at significantly different times. So, while "first grade" might be a good, AVERAGE time to start reading, many kids are doing so long before that, and many kids struggle with basic words and sentences (plus comprehension) into their eighth, ninth, and tenth years (probably beyond for some).

I think we might agree that music reading has its own, similarly wide span in years for those who are "ready" to read. In fact, music reading "readiness" probably naturally FOLLOWS readiness to read language, chronologically.

So, this Devil's Advocate submits (for the sake of discussion) that a good portion of the "success" that teachers here eventually have, with students that were here-to-fore not reading, may have as much to do with that student's chronological readiness to read music, as with any particular teaching technique or expertise. In other words, maybe the teacher just got the student at the right time.

And by logical extension therefore, the previous teacher was fighting a hopeless battle that was predestined to failure. The teacher did not fail -- the student's maturation clock doomed the learning.

Whatdaya think?

Really? Can you cite any studies or authorities on this? I am not trying to be difficult, but I just don't take people's word for it anymore. Way too many assumptions being made based on misinformation. And if it is true, then it would be good information for me to have.

Hi Morodiene,

I thought this was general knowledge. You certainly do not have to take my word as fact. Ask any variety of pre-school, kindergarten, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th grade teachers, continuing upward.

There are many, MANY studies on the subject, and I'll bet I have a few books right in my library - just need to dig them out, and will post.
Ed

This is my area, Ed, so let's see what can be done with this. I took educational psychology a long time ago so the only name that comes to mind is Piaget who set out developmental stages a proposed that optimum teaching happens when it is in line with natural "readiness". Other theories were put forth to counter this. Regardless, those stages do not go along the lines you have proposed. If you want to do some really interesting reading, look up Rudolf Steiner and Waldorf. Even better, ask to visit a school and observe, not forgetting to talk to the teachers. One element of the Steinerian approach is that it integrates body, mind, and spirit or feeling and as such probably comes the closest to what music education entails. Digressing for a moment, Steiner was asked in the early 1900's to form a school for the children of factory workers, and the outcome was not what was expected of children of labourers at that time. The world paid attention.

In regards to reading (words) itself. It will get too complex to set out all that it entails. It should be remembered however that the English language is illogical and arbitrary (though, tough, through, bough), and written music does not share that trait. Various strategies such as the whole language approach have been tried to overcome this.

I must say that I have never come across the theories you expressed, either in teacher training, or among other teachers, i.e.

In fact, "the capacity to read letters and words" isn't that familiar (had to think about that) because I think we dwell on how to develop that reading and what's behind it.

There seems to be an unspoken assumption that reading words and reading music are connected. Are they, necessarily? Or do they just have some common traits such as the fact of symbols on paper. Are the same areas of the brain involved? Is it the same process? Are there, for example, people who can read music with ease but have difficulty reading words? (I wouldn't be surprised).

What does reading music entail? Well, you have symbols on a page which get names according to their location and represent sounds both apart and together, and one after another. The coding and encoding don't work exactly like it does for written words. Tracking (eye movement across the page) is probably similar.

Another aspect of reading music is that you see notes on the page, and execute actions on an instrument. Part of this process can in fact be a direct physical link from page to hand. This is unlike reading words (except perhaps in touch typing).

I think the questions here are:
- How does reading music get taught so that it is effective?
- Does reading music get taught or is it often bypassed (memorization, finger numbers, rote imitation)?
- If it is not taught in schools, and not taught in lessons (see "bypass") then there is a problem.

If this is actually going on, then any question of reading words in school would have be secondary - assuming that the two are related - if relevant at all in this situation.

Music Instruction: 30 minutes per week.

Language Arts: 2 hours per day, plus a pervasive use of written language in all aspects of a child's life, from signs on buildings to the internet.

I think that has a lot to do with it. No matter how effective the teacher is, if you're not in contact with something on a daily basis, your chances of mastering something is zero. (In other words, I think teachers give themselves way too much credit. There is no shortcut or substitute for quantity of time.)

Morodiene,

Here are a couple for starters:
**PSYCHOLOGY (5th Edition) by Norman Munn - Chapters on Maturation and Child Development
**EINSTEIN NEVER USED FLASH CARDS by Hirsh-Pasek & Golinkoff
**CLOSING OF THE AMERICAN MIND by Allan Bloom – With a chapter devoted to Music
**IRON JOHN by Robert Bly - Steeped in metaphor and modern myths – not as clinical, but certainly as TRUE

As you probably know, I am patently against doing research “on line”, due to the gross amount of MIS-information boldly presented as fact. However, I did quickly bumble onto this, which seemed to have a degree of credibility:
http://www.noteaccess.com/APPROACHES/ArtEd/ChildDev/ChildDev.htm

Are you SURE you do not already know all this stuff?

I think I see the problem >> I may need to go back to WRITING school, OR I may not be developmentally ready for writing!

I did not mean that an individual child would typically read letters at a drastically different time that s/he would read words. I meant that different children are ready to read at different times. One child may be more-than-ready to read at 4 years old, and another may still not be that “ready” at 7 years. Is this statement true, or are all those sources I just quoted wrong?

Further, I recall studies having shown that there are at least 7 different MODES of learning, and that the abstract/verbal aspects of reading represent only one of those modes. Perhaps I dreamt that too.
Ed

Bingo!

Ed, getting practical and past on-line links on general psychology, as a musician what are your thoughts on teaching reading music? I've put forth some thoughts on what music reading might entail including a physical component but they're rather off the cuff. It would be interesting to know your own thoughts on this, including how that might translate into learning. Of course an assumption has been made that reading is important, and maybe reading as a first stage might not be your own preferred way of going about it.

I am always amazed to get transfer students who struggle to read yet play pieces that are about grade 1 or 2 level. I have never had a single student that I have started from scratch who has had trouble with reading music. I don't think I do anything remarkable either. I simply ensure that the student is able to read the notes in a piece before they learn to play it. If they can't read the notes for a piece then they're not ready to play that piece. If they do have trouble with the occasional note then I make sure they work that note out and and then read it within context (naming notes from a few notes before to a few notes after). Maybe I've just been incredibly lucky, but really...it doesn't seem that hard!

True, but at the same time we're talking about a system with 7 notes, 5 lines and something that if understood can work on its own, - period - Unlike language where each word has a different meaning, etc.

We're not talking about learning words (which would be harmony in all its essence), but learning the notes, the 7 notes and the idea of the bass clef!

I learned basic notes in 4th grade music class. Nothing complicated like sightsinging, but we certainly learned note names and counting in general music class.

That no longer exists.

The only thing available to most kids in school is band or chorus. Neither have the appeal of the sports arena, being populated by a lot of nerds, but at least it's there. (I was in both through high school, but I am a nerd and became an engineer.)

One of my own kids did choir and never learned to read music. Yet she always knew her part, led her section, and i have to admit the choir performed significantly better than the ones I performed in. They are more musical, more polished, more in tune, blend better, do more interesting music - but they can't sightread to save their life. I have reluctantly changed my mind about that being a bad idea.

I usually have 10 members in my handbell choir and usually 1 to 2 can read music, the rest circle their notes. There are about a dozen in my church choir; 2 of us read notes well, 2 have marginal skills on a good day. The rest learn by rote.

KeyString,

I may be singularly the “most wrong” person to whom to put this question. At a time when I was learning the most musically, I did not just enjoy reading, I LOVED IT! I took great pride in not only getting it right, but getting it right the first time! I was very fortunate to be able to sight-read (let’s not start that again!) virtually anything that came my way. I reveled in taking the printed page and making it instantly sing! I wanted to be the first to translate the hieroglyphics into sound.

In retrospect, I was so fond of reading only because it came so easily to me. It allowed me to devour large volumes of music (let’s not speak of the quality of playing!) And later, it allowed me to experience scores of scores, with all their hidden treasures, while sitting on my couch. HOWEVER, had I struggled with reading, my musical experience would have been drastically different - and not for the better I am sure!

I personally think of music reading as a cornerstone of musicianship, right along with playing, listening, and learning. Some might cite individuals like Dave Brubeck, George Shearing, and Ray Charles as examples of greats who did not need to read. My response is that it simply makes them all the more genius, that they were able to accomplish greatness without the ability to read; AND think of what else they may have been able to achieve with that reading facility.

To return for a moment to my comments about maturation, and readiness to read, I was keying on Gary’s “some students start with me and take off like rockets”. I would not presume to suggest how to go about teaching a reluctant or slow reader - I would be at a loss. But I do firmly believe that there are stages where a student is “ready” for certain things. I was not ready for Mahler when I was in my twenties; I am still not ready for Berg (and time is running out.) I believe that for something as physically/mentally complex as reading music, one must be ready.