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#1886683 - 04/26/12 12:02 AM Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear & request
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2725
Update:

Have already conducted a test on my new Ivory Feel replacement keys where I take the edge of a finger nail to see if a very small mark/scratch can be made, on a high "A" white key, for example... unfortunately, this can be easily done.

Have only had the new Ivory Feel keys for a short while as it may take two to three months before the wear starts to show up, and, minute scratches become more numerous with time.*

This is disappointing to find out since the original issue obviously remains unresolved.

How many key bed swaps are needed to acquire resilient key tops?

*After more use occurs, it is possible to see a powdery substance flake off of the keys due to the scratching, and, have to wonder if this loose stuff might eventually mess up the sensors/mechanism under the keys?

New request:

Would like to ask everyone out there with a Roland board (that has the Ivory Feel keys) to post their pictures so that we all can see how the key tops deteriorate, and, as to what degree of wear has occurred.

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#1886685 - 04/26/12 12:06 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3102
Loc: Oregon
If it were me, and I really liked the piano, I'd live with it. If the wear becomes noticeable during the warranty period, just get Roland to replace it again.
_________________________
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http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1886695 - 04/26/12 12:22 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: voxpops]
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2725
There is no point in making yet another exchange for a set of keys that will do the same thing, if resilient keys are not available.*

And, at some point the warranty period ends, too.

*Extra note:

If anyone has pictures to share of their deteriorating key tops, this is the place to do so.

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#1886736 - 04/26/12 02:58 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear & request [Re: pv88]
Per Baekgaard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Danmark
I have a few macro photos of the surface of mine, before I got the (RD700NX) key bed replaced:

http://www.b4net.dk/photos/DirectLink/D3C_8354.jpg

http://www.b4net.dk/photos/DirectLink/D3C_8355.jpg

http://www.b4net.dk/photos/DirectLink/D3C_8360.jpg

The new ones show no sign of wear until now, despite heavy use.

They also have a significantly different feel/texture, and I'm certain they are a different "formulation" than the previous set of keys. They feel less open, and probably sits right between the previous Ivory feel keys (that I actually liked otherwise) and more "normal" plastic keys.

Not sure if this helps you, though; I'm truly sorry to hear you keep having problems! As mentioned elsewhere, Roland have been very helpful to rectify the problems here for me, and I would hope their representatives elsewhere could be at least half as helpful and fix this with a new set of keys for you, now on the 2nd attempt :-)


-- Per.
_________________________
Hornung & Møller Acoustic Grand
Roland RD-700NX, Nord Electro 3, Yamaha P150, Roland JV-80

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#1886739 - 04/26/12 03:11 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear & request [Re: Per Baekgaard]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Per Baekgaard
I have a few macro photos of the surface of mine, before I got the (RD700NX) key bed replaced:

http://www.b4net.dk/photos/DirectLink/D3C_8354.jpg

http://www.b4net.dk/photos/DirectLink/D3C_8355.jpg

http://www.b4net.dk/photos/DirectLink/D3C_8360.jpg

The new ones show no sign of wear until now, despite heavy use.

They also have a significantly different feel/texture, and I'm certain they are a different "formulation" than the previous set of keys. They feel less open, and probably sits right between the previous Ivory feel keys (that I actually liked otherwise) and more "normal" plastic keys.

Not sure if this helps you, though; I'm truly sorry to hear you keep having problems! As mentioned elsewhere, Roland have been very helpful to rectify the problems here for me, and I would hope their representatives elsewhere could be at least half as helpful and fix this with a new set of keys for you, now on the 2nd attempt :-)


-- Per.


After looking at those photos, I would have to say, that wear is unacceptable. Perhaps they should go back to using what I had on my Roland A80.
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#1886748 - 04/26/12 03:49 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear & request [Re: Dave Horne]
Per Baekgaard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Danmark
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
After looking at those photos, I would have to say, that wear is unacceptable. Perhaps they should go back to using what I had on my Roland A80.


smile

Bear in mind, though, that the images are taken with directional light meant to illustrate the problem, are close-ups taken with a macro lens on a D-SLR, and processed to increase the contrast in order to clearly document the problem.

So it may look a bit worse than it felt -- even though I agree that this amount of wear was not acceptable so quickly (and as said, was promptly fixed by Roland). It could even have been that my particular keyboard was suffering from some other production defect, so this may not be the typical case.


-- Per.
_________________________
Hornung & Møller Acoustic Grand
Roland RD-700NX, Nord Electro 3, Yamaha P150, Roland JV-80

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#1886755 - 04/26/12 04:09 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear & request [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9693
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Wow, what camera are you using Per?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1886766 - 04/26/12 05:05 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear & request [Re: Kawai James]
Per Baekgaard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Danmark
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Wow, what camera are you using Per?


My current main camera is a Nikon D300, and the optics used here was the Nikkor 105mm f/2.8 AF-S VR. I used a pin-light placed some meters away from the keys, and almost flush with the keys, to enhance the contrast.

The D300 is a wonderful camera, although it is getting a bit old by now. I'm waiting for a D800, but Nikon has a long backlog globally, it seems, so it will take a while to get it... but luckily the D300 still works very well!

:-)
_________________________
Hornung & Møller Acoustic Grand
Roland RD-700NX, Nord Electro 3, Yamaha P150, Roland JV-80

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#1886778 - 04/26/12 06:02 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear & request [Re: pv88]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 765
I don't remember real Ivory being so textured. Why would Roland exaggerate what they are trying to emulate? And in the process make something so easy to damage. Where is the super-natural keys when you need them.


Edited by 36251 (04/26/12 06:03 AM)
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#1886793 - 04/26/12 07:26 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3102
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: pv88
There is no point in making yet another exchange for a set of keys that will do the same thing, if resilient keys are not available.*

And, at some point the warranty period ends, too.

You did ask, before your original post was edited, for other people's opinions as to what to do. It seems as if you have already decided that the problem is not fixable (unless Roland have something else up their sleeve), so why not be done with the issue and return the V?
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1886821 - 04/26/12 09:02 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2475
Loc: UK
My friend has an FP-7F and the keyboard shows no signs of wear.

I think it's the same keyboard as the v-piano? Or similar. PHAIII something.

I tried the fingernail test, ahem, when he was out of the room and could not mark the key surface. There is a non-gloss texture and grain close up, but it seems quite hard.

Difficult to imagine that Roland have not fixed this, especially for the v. Maybe you've just been unlucky, or worse experienced some incompetence by local Roland support. Definitely talk to Roland at a national level.

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#1886949 - 04/26/12 01:37 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5564
My white keys (not the whole keybed) were individually replaced and have no wear whatsoever since then, despite some hard-hitting stuff......
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1886974 - 04/26/12 02:14 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3102
Loc: Oregon
I've just checked my FP-7F and can detect no wear of the "Ivory" surface.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1886975 - 04/26/12 02:15 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7117
Loc: So. California
When I had my FP7F, I had zero wear and I used it very heavily (2-3 hours a day). There was not even a slight hint of wear. Just to compare my laptop keys ALWAYS have wear.
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#1887058 - 04/26/12 05:45 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9693
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Perhaps the FP-7F key surfaces are more resistant than the RD-700/V-Piano/HP-30x?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1887065 - 04/26/12 05:57 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Yes they are. And they look different too - slightly whiter and slightly less textured.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1887086 - 04/26/12 06:29 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: EssBrace]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2475
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Yes they are. And they look different too - slightly whiter and slightly less textured.

So then the question is whether the physical form of the keys is the same? If they are, Roland can use keys from the 7F to replace the ones in the v, if they don't have 'good' stock of assembled keybeds for the v. Something here doesn't add up yet.

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#1887103 - 04/26/12 06:56 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3102
Loc: Oregon
It's quite possible that, given the different color substructure for the FP-7F, the keys are manufactured on different production lines, possibly using slightly different plastic formulations. I suspect - although I have no proof - that the keybed/action is completely interchangeable across the PHAIII models.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1887150 - 04/26/12 08:31 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: voxpops]
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2725
Originally Posted By: voxpops
It's quite possible that, given the different color substructure for the FP-7F, the keys are manufactured on different production lines, possibly using slightly different plastic formulations. I suspect - although I have no proof - that the keybed/action is completely interchangeable across the PHAIII models.


@voxpops,

Yes, you are more than likely correct about the different formulations being used across these different models, and, there also may be different "batches" of this formulation that has been manufactured, at different times.

Important note:

However, it is not true that you can put an FP-7F key bed (or, any other model for that matter) into a V-Piano, since these actions are inherently different in some detail, as Roland has already told me only V-Piano actions/key beds are manufactured for the V, and, none other.

This means that substitution between the V and other models is not currently possible, and, even standard plastic keys (of any kind) are not available for the V, either.

The new keys I received look and feel almost exactly identical to the original ones, and, the scratch test proves the inevitable wear, just as before.

Nothing has changed... just swapped one key bed out for another, of more or less equal materials.

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#1887187 - 04/26/12 10:29 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2725
Extra note:

Also, look at the photos above as that was exactly what was happening to the original keys I had on my V-Piano. The new set of keys appear to be almost identical to the others as I expect similar wear, again.

It that isn't bad enough in itself, the particles of plastic that come off may very well get lodged in the sensors/action below the keys, screwing stuff up. No fairy tales this time, just raw facts.


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#1887195 - 04/26/12 10:40 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1720
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
What I don't get about this is that a real piano will show similar signs of wear after time and the RD700NX at least that I can see doesn't seem to my eyes to be significantly worse then the previous RD700GX and neither caused any issues in playability.
_________________________
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Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1887197 - 04/26/12 10:42 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9693
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: pv88
...the particles of plastic that come off may very well get lodged in the sensors/action below the keys, screwing stuff up.


I do not recall seeing any reports of this happening from other Roland owner's. I wonder if you're not being just a little melodramatic?
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1887202 - 04/26/12 10:57 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: Kawai James]
alekkh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 205
As a V-Piano owner, I see just one probable cause for scratched keys:


The Hands

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#1887206 - 04/26/12 11:02 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: Kawai James]
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2725
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
I do not recall seeing any reports of this happening from other Roland owner's. I wonder if you're not being just a little melodramatic?


Well, perhaps this hasn't happened as of yet, but I do want Roland to ponder over the five questions I just sent them (via e-mail "Support" on their website), since it might just open their half-shut sleepy eyes just a little:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Product: V-Piano

Subject: Particle debris from keys / Five (5) questions

Question(s):

1) How do you prevent the plastic debris (of tiny particles) from the "Ivory Feel" keys from screwing up the sensors/action underneath, due to fingernail scratching?
2) Does vacuuming the keys now become a mandatory procedure?
3) Is 3-5 months normal wear time expectancy for these keys?
4) How many key bed changes are allowed under warranty?
5) After warranty runs out, what do you provide?

Answers:

1) Not possible
2) Yes
3) Maybe, I dunno...
4) Can't count that high
5) Nada

Response: Pending

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roland will probably think that I am either a nut, or joking, however, I am serious with getting them to look at the issues.

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#1887242 - 04/27/12 01:15 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1425
My keys on my RD-700GXF wore just like the pictures above. And to be honest, I liked the rougher feel. I wish I could put the ivory feel keys in my Nord.

I'm not trivialising Richard's disappointment at all, because he saved for a long time and spent a lot of money and to be fair, if three other major brands, Kawai, Yamaha, and Casio can put out Ivory feel keys and not have issues with scratching and deteriorating coatings, I'm not sure what Roland's problem is. They've been dealing with this for 4 years ever since they launched the RD-700GX with the first ivory feel keys.
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#1887257 - 04/27/12 02:36 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: Dr Popper]
Per Baekgaard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Danmark
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
What I don't get about this is that a real piano will show similar signs of wear after time and the RD700NX at least that I can see doesn't seem to my eyes to be significantly worse then the previous RD700GX and neither caused any issues in playability.


Well, I have a real grand a few meters away from my RD700NX here also. The keys are real ivory and are likely around 80 years old. They show no sign of comparable wear, and -- due to the fact that they are ivory -- are very easy to polish to the degree you'd like, thus maintaining them in a good condition.

As for the scratches you've seen on the images above, then it did impact the playability for me, as these rough spots on some of the keys felt like I had "gunk" on my fingers (which I'm quite sensitive of when playing) -- depending on which key I played in :-) And yes, this happened also when playing somewhere "for real", not only when sitting at home.

The new keys feel very different and show no sign of wear. I think they are similar or identical to the FP7F keys that are currently being manufactured, from what I've seen.

My own theory is that there may have been several generations of key formulation over time, but I don't know for sure, obviously.


-- Per.
_________________________
Hornung & Møller Acoustic Grand
Roland RD-700NX, Nord Electro 3, Yamaha P150, Roland JV-80

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#1887259 - 04/27/12 02:39 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: Kawai James]
Per Baekgaard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Danmark
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: pv88
...the particles of plastic that come off may very well get lodged in the sensors/action below the keys, screwing stuff up.


I do not recall seeing any reports of this happening from other Roland owner's. I wonder if you're not being just a little melodramatic?


I don't think the sensors will be impacted by the white dust that rips of; as far as I know they are pretty well sealed.

A small amount of white dust is there, of course, and can be seen on the keys after playing. I've never personally noticed "white fingers" after playing although others might have?


-- Per.
_________________________
Hornung & Møller Acoustic Grand
Roland RD-700NX, Nord Electro 3, Yamaha P150, Roland JV-80

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#1887260 - 04/27/12 02:43 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: PianoZac]
Per Baekgaard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Danmark
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
My keys on my RD-700GXF wore just like the pictures above. And to be honest, I liked the rougher feel. I wish I could put the ivory feel keys in my Nord.


You're not the only one saying so! I've heard that from others too. The original ivory feel keys are really great playing on (disregarding the wear for a minute).

I also spent some time thinking whether I should just live with it or not, but in the end I preferred a "cleaner" feeling keyboard even if it felt a bit more like normal plastic keys.


-- Per.
_________________________
Hornung & Møller Acoustic Grand
Roland RD-700NX, Nord Electro 3, Yamaha P150, Roland JV-80

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#1887277 - 04/27/12 03:25 AM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: alekkh]
Per Baekgaard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Danmark
Originally Posted By: alekkh
As a V-Piano owner, I see just one probable cause for scratched keys:

The Hands


Well, there is probably some truth in that, but it is not the only part of the equation:

Old Keys := The keybed my RD700NX came with
New Keys := The keybed that has now replaced the Old Keys

Old Keys + My Hands + 2 months => Noticeable wear

Old Keys + Someone Else's Hands + 2 hours => Significantly increased wear

New Keys + My Hands + 2 months => Absolutely NO signs of any wear

Old Keys + Unknown Hands + N months => Sometimes no wear, sometimes wear


If needed, I could upload a picture of my hands for reference (just joking)... They are in clean condition, with very short nails (otherwise they get in the way of my fretless bass playing).


So if anywhere, the old YMMV certainly seems to imply here :-)


My old and new keys are indeed very different, and I was alerted to this fact before I got them replaced, so that I would know they feel different and more closed. Some like the old keys better (I actually did). If they had not been showing significant wear, I would have kept them, so I understand why someone that has softer hands and no wear may want to keep them :-)


-- Per.
_________________________
Hornung & Møller Acoustic Grand
Roland RD-700NX, Nord Electro 3, Yamaha P150, Roland JV-80

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#1887631 - 04/27/12 05:21 PM Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear [Re: pv88]
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2725
Update:

It has been suggested to me that I now try to reach Roland HQ (at the corporate level) to see if I can't get something done for getting a new set of keys that actually do have the resilient key tops, and, not just guess work.

If the next key bed doesn't have resilient non-scratch keys then I am just wasting my time with getting the key bed swapped out, again.

The new keys I had been given now (after a long 8 week wait) are going to eventually show wear, just like the original ones.

Is there someone at Roland that can confirm resilient non-scratch key tops in advance, before the key bed ships out?

Otherwise, there is no reason to send it!

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