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Joined: Sep 2009
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After listening to those how can anyone say that Pianoteq sounds like a proper piano?
Both in this recording and in my hands-on trials, Pianoteq sounds like a piano in a can with a blanket over top.
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Wow, you said it. That is quite an embarrassment for PianoTeq.
Last edited by gvfarns; 04/21/12 08:05 PM.
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Hmm, oddly, I didn't think Pianoteq sounded so bad for this piece. Sure it's a bit "covered in blankets", but it could be worse. I think the Scherzo is pretty forgiving in terms of piano sound. Could you render the Nocturne as well? At least that's where I thought the V-Piano was struggling a bit. Or maybe it's just late and I should go to bed 
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It doesn't have as painful a ring to it as you sometimes hear. If I had only heard the PT version, I wouldn't have said what I did. But the other two just sound so much better!
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I think Pianoteq actually sounds pretty good here. To the totally uninitiated, it may sound like a new type of piano, and have them curious, without them necessarily thinking it sounded unattractive.
I've upgraded my copy to V4, but won't be able to play it properly for a while.
Greg.
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Last edited by imyself; 04/22/12 02:42 AM.
Kawai VPC1/Synthogy American D/Pianoteq 5 Pro/Galaxy Vintage D
"Remember to take the time ... before time takes you"
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not Chopin, but Faure, a "romance without words" that i especially enjoy  https://www.box.com/s/a7cb23ca634162fbd795(Pianoteq 4 sound)
Kawai VPC1/Synthogy American D/Pianoteq 5 Pro/Galaxy Vintage D
"Remember to take the time ... before time takes you"
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An excellent example showing that if the system is not able to perform after-pedaling (when the pedal is profiting after releasing the keys and picks up the sound), no gigabytes of samples it will not save! listen at Vintage D: 2:38 2:43 2:48 3:11 3:16 and compare it with PT or Ivory!
DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 5.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha, iRig Pro;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)
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Very interesting.
Listening to the scherzo and the nocturne on PTQ is a very enjoyable experience. Nothing is really missing.
The piano sings nicely in the Nocturne and is big and powerful in the scherzo when needed, and IMO it renders very well all the complex interactions and colors of the pieces like on the real thing.
You can very easily tell it's not a real piano because of the tone, but I think that matter up to a certain point as I found I could immerse into the music and forget about analysing anything.
Vintage D and Ivory II both have a beautiful tone, but I found it difficult to enjoy the pieces and just concentrate on the music. The pedalling is often weird and there is little interaction between the notes. It's a recording of single sounds, and that shows in the rendering which doesn't sound to me like a coherent whole.
Also, the dynamics is not always correct and the piano seems to move closer and more far away with the changing dynamics.
On the other hand, on an Elton John cover or for a recording in a mix I suspect the sampled pianos would leave PTQ in the dust... the tone is just not there yet.
Nonetheless, if I had to make a choice, I would go for PTQ with no doubt in my mind.
I can see how people can reach the very opposite conclusion in this comparison - I guess it all depends on what you are looking for in a virtual piano.
I play classical music mostly through headphones at night after work, and I've been wating for this new iteration of PTQ for some time, toying with the idea of buying an N1 and reaching the holy grail of a perfect action and good playability and tone.
I think I'll stick with the V for silent practice for now...
imyself, which preset did you use? Did you make any changes or tweakings to the preset?
Steinway B-211 - Kawai Novus
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An excellent example showing that if the system is not able to perform after-pedaling (when the pedal is profiting after releasing the keys and picks up the sound), no gigabytes of samples it will not save!
listen at Vintage D:
2:38
2:43
2:48
3:11
3:16
and compare it with PT or Ivory!
I think this is more of a settings issue than a Vintage D weakness. Listen to this render which doesn't seem to have the problem, or at least not as much: http://www.box.com/s/ce712f0c85ddfad5bcc3
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An excellent example showing that if the system is not able to perform after-pedaling (when the pedal is profiting after releasing the keys and picks up the sound), no gigabytes of samples it will not save!
listen at Vintage D:
2:38
2:43
2:48
3:11
3:16
and compare it with PT or Ivory!
I think this is more of a settings issue than a Vintage D weakness. Listen to this render which doesn't seem to have the problem, or at least not as much: http://www.box.com/s/ce712f0c85ddfad5bcc3 It is much-much better! But at 2:52 still some discomfort, that others do not
DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 5.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha, iRig Pro;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)
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Very interesting.
Listening to the scherzo and the nocturne on PTQ is a very enjoyable experience. Nothing is really missing.
The piano sings nicely in the Nocturne and is big and powerful in the scherzo when needed, and IMO it renders very well all the complex interactions and colors of the pieces like on the real thing.
You can very easily tell it's not a real piano because of the tone, but I think that matter up to a certain point as I found I could immerse into the music and forget about analysing anything.
Vintage D and Ivory II both have a beautiful tone, but I found it difficult to enjoy the pieces and just concentrate on the music. The pedalling is often weird and there is little interaction between the notes. It's a recording of single sounds, and that shows in the rendering which doesn't sound to me like a coherent whole.
Also, the dynamics is not always correct and the piano seems to move closer and more far away with the changing dynamics.
On the other hand, on an Elton John cover or for a recording in a mix I suspect the sampled pianos would leave PTQ in the dust... the tone is just not there yet.
Nonetheless, if I had to make a choice, I would go for PTQ with no doubt in my mind.
I can see how people can reach the very opposite conclusion in this comparison - I guess it all depends on what you are looking for in a virtual piano.
I play classical music mostly through headphones at night after work, and I've been wating for this new iteration of PTQ for some time, toying with the idea of buying an N1 and reaching the holy grail of a perfect action and good playability and tone.
I think I'll stick with the V for silent practice for now...
imyself, which preset did you use? Did you make any changes or tweakings to the preset? Hi, for the second examples with only Pianoteq4 , i use "D4 Blues" and the only change is my velocity: [0, 4, 34, 82, 123, 127; 0, 0, 40, 96, 127, 127]
Kawai VPC1/Synthogy American D/Pianoteq 5 Pro/Galaxy Vintage D
"Remember to take the time ... before time takes you"
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 351
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OP
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Very interesting.
Vintage D and Ivory II both have a beautiful tone, but I found it difficult to enjoy the pieces and just concentrate on the music. The pedalling is often weird and there is little interaction between the notes. It's a recording of single sounds, and that shows in the rendering which doesn't sound to me like a coherent whole.
You may want to listen to the original renders though, would like to hear you opinion on those: http://www.box.com/s/889fc461360beb825101http://www.box.com/s/4926b8a0ecdf6b497685These have been rendered in Ivory II Steinway rather than the Italian Grand, which I find a bit lacking personally.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,552
3000 Post Club Member
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3000 Post Club Member
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An excellent example showing that if the system is not able to perform after-pedaling (when the pedal is profiting after releasing the keys and picks up the sound), no gigabytes of samples it will not save!
listen at Vintage D:
2:38
2:43
2:48
3:11
3:16
and compare it with PT or Ivory! Pretty sure those issues don't have to do with repedalling, which Vintage D does admirably (at least in the updated version, which I assume this is). The artist is partial pedaling and I think the Vintage D pedal kicks in at a different point that the other two, which in this example doesn't work. Unfortunately these guys didn't provide a way to determine which midi value invokes the pedal. When you play it's easy to adjust, but it can cause significant issues with MIDI files, as we have seen previously. Still, pedal goofs notwithstanding, Vintage D is a whole world better than PT in these examples.
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Yes, much better about pedalling and the strange moving back and forth of the rendering from the Italian grand. Also more enjoyable. Still, IMO there is a limitation in the colors (some of the nuances are lost - also at times it jumps straight from pp to fff with not much in between) and in the notes of the instrument sounding like a whole. The tone, though, has the unmistakable beauty and reality of a real vintage grand. I'm sure that it would sound even better if somebody was actually playing it in real time with the feedback from the instrument, and not from a midi file. I believe that this kind of setting (i.e. rendering from a midi file played on another instrument) gives an advantage to the modelled instruments that have a finer granularity and can accommodate midi ranges that are not "centered" on their optimal rendering spectrum (hope this makes sense!) About nuances, wholeness, beautiful tone, and for a reality check, here is a gorgeous concert grand: http://konkurs.chopin.pl/en/edition/xvi/video/3_Yulianna_Avdeeva/stage/2/index/6(Edit: don't click on the play triangle to start the video - it will go to the scherzo section by itself)
Last edited by Erard; 04/22/12 11:41 AM.
Steinway B-211 - Kawai Novus
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Hi,
for the second examples with only Pianoteq4 , i use "D4 Blues" and the only change is my velocity: [0, 4, 34, 82, 123, 127; 0, 0, 40, 96, 127, 127]
Thanks. I'm going to try that out on my PTQ demo.
Steinway B-211 - Kawai Novus
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Posts: 1,231
1000 Post Club Member
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Chiming in late to the game.... Nobody really commented much on this Imperfect sample. I'm not a Faz fan. Played a few real ones and found them a bit "tinny." But the realism I'm hearing in this sample seems to me in a WHOLE DIFFERENT LEAGUE from the V-Piano and Vintage D (I own the D). IT'S A TOTALLY REAL SOUND!!! It actually sounds like a live recording made in less than perfect sonic environment, perhaps a smaller room, with the piano miked fairly close to the strings, possibly with omni pencils. Not a high-end "classical piano recording" typ of sound....But wow....Totally and amazingly real through my Grado 325s. Bravo!
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Joined: Oct 2010
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Ok, here is my new piano module RP-X by Generalmusic. It use physical modeling in real time and has totally programmable performance parameters (via USB). So one may say its a kind of v-piano. I've tuned and tweaked it my way (hardware tweaking) so by now I am quite happy with it. In my opinion well-tuned RP-X sounds more realistic then some of the more expensive DPs. Here's my attempt (performance 1, Fazioli): https://www.box.com/s/80170c5473b7755f19d2https://www.box.com/s/41291d01f02d604bdfed
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