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#1887900 - 04/28/12 08:22 AM What happens on a jury?
pianoloverus Offline
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19195
Loc: New York City
For those of us who haven't played at a jury as piano performance majors can you tell us what happens?

Is detailed feedback given? Do you play every piece in its entirety? Is your own teacher part of the jury? What are the possible effects of a poor jury performance? Who usually sits on the jury? Is this once per year? Are there specific requirements for each year's program? etc.

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#1887907 - 04/28/12 09:03 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
Orange Soda King Offline
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Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6069
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
It probably varies from place to place, but at my university:

You bring music to play (memorized) and they listen to you play and judge your playing. They write comments on a sheet kind of like how adjudicators do at some competitions. For me, they usually stop me after the playing the majority of each piece, and my teacher is one of the people that sits in on the jury (and yes, he's one of the people judging me, too).

Possible effects of poor jury performance: Lower grade or if it's bad enough, failing.

I'm guessing around 3 to 5 piano faculty from the institution listen and judge.

At my school, it's once per semester.

Requirements: These also probably differ from school to school (and from major to major) but mine are to bring four memorized pieces from three contrasting styles, and one has to be "self-prepared" which means I never had a lesson on it, but worked on it only by myself.

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#1887957 - 04/28/12 11:14 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: Orange Soda King]
DameMyra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1940
Loc: South Jersey
My experience has been similar to OSK.

One jury a semester. I usually play what I've worked on that semester, so it's usually three or four pieces.Since my university has a rather small piano department, we usually play anywhere from 15 - 25 minutes. (So sometimes you don't play your entire sonata. Once I was stopped before the recapitulation on a Beethoven sonata movement.)The entire piano faculty sits on the jury. Usually I get verbal feedback right after the jury. Your grade is ultimately the decision of your teacher, who sits on the jury. And your grade is really based on everything you have done that semester, not just your jury. At my university everyone sweats juries and the tension in the hallways is usually palpable, so I usually arrive just to warm up a little and then play. Hanging around practicing for hours before your jury is not always advisable. Remember, you will probably make mistakes, you might have a memory slip. Those on the jury play too, so they understand what can happen under pressure. Just relax and know your teacher is rooting for you to do well!
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#1887968 - 04/28/12 11:59 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
rada Offline
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Registered: 09/07/06
Posts: 1124
Loc: pagosa springs,co
I was asked to play a scale [ of their choosing] and then my prepared pieces. It was all very hush, hush and afterwards I would read a report. I couldn't see the jurors as they were in a somehwhat darkened hall.

You had to pass the jury to begin the next, more advanced classes....not passing meant you had to practice until you could pass.In the end the final course before getting my degree was yet another jury.

rada

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#1888008 - 04/28/12 01:52 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
WhoDwaldi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 244
Where I went, juries were immediately before final exams in general classes each semester. Final grade in applied piano was 2/3 teacher’s grade submitted prior to jury, 1/3 average of other piano faculty’s jury scores. Music office calculated final grade. (That way the piano department head could not manipulate everybody’s grades into exactly what HE wanted, as was the case when he calculated final grades up to a year or two prior to when I entered the school.)

One had to play three “new” works or movements (not previously played for jury) from at least two different style periods. A concerto movement with a lengthy cadenza counted for two pieces. Jury was in the recital hall and one dressed up. The hall had "jury boxes" in the back, but faculty sat at a round table in a wide aisle. My piano teacher also taught music history classes, and would read term papers during his own students' juries (or pretended to do so not to have to look at colleagues if or when his students were embarrassing).

To keep a scholarship (as I always had), one was required to maintain a “B” or greater as final piano grade. End of sophomore year jury determined if one was allowed to continue toward a degree. There was a separate pass/fail audition to be allowed to present a public senior recital, but no jury at the end of that semester.

Often one was cut short with “thank you” if things were going well during a piece. However, they’d listen to the whole blessed thing, no matter how long it was, at the hint of serious trouble. Mood was often grumpy immediately before lunch and late in a long day of juries--didn’t seem to reflect in grades. Faculty didn’t write jury comment sheets, but they’d often compliment (or look holes through) you when they’d see you next in the school hallways. They always seemed to know precisely what mistakes everybody would make, but they did reward a risk-taking performance.

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#1888080 - 04/28/12 06:06 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: Orange Soda King]
Redhead1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 134
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King

Possible effects of poor jury performance: Lower grade or if it's bad enough, failing.


I've always wondered about this. Does anyone ever actually fail a jury?? (Or even get a D?)

If so, what would happen that would be so bad that it would cause a failing grade?

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#1888081 - 04/28/12 06:11 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
Redhead1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 134
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus


Is detailed feedback given? Do you play every piece in its entirety? Is your own teacher part of the jury? What are the possible effects of a poor jury performance? Who usually sits on the jury? Is this once per year? Are there specific requirements for each year's program? etc.


At my college ... there were three jurors: our piano teacher, the head of the music department, and the voice teacher. [Interesting, now that I think about it, because two of the three were not even pianists.]

They would name a scale for us to play. Then we would play our pieces, I believe three in contrasting styles.

In all my juries, I was never cut short on a piece.

At your next private lesson, you would go over the sheets with your teacher. Your grade for the semester would be the average of the three grades; however, your private teacher had the power to override it by one letter grade, which happened rarely.

At my school, I never heard of anyone getting less than a "B" on their jury.

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#1888095 - 04/28/12 06:27 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
WhoDwaldi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 244
Piano prof to a voice major doing piano proficiency, "Why don't you play the D major scale, since that's what you're going to get!"

smile

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#1888099 - 04/28/12 06:39 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
ChibiSF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 222
Loc: Long Island, New York
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
For those of us who haven't played at a jury as piano performance majors can you tell us what happens?

Is detailed feedback given? Do you play every piece in its entirety? Is your own teacher part of the jury? What are the possible effects of a poor jury performance? Who usually sits on the jury? Is this once per year? Are there specific requirements for each year's program? etc.


At my school, feedback is written down which can be checked at a later time. While I have played most of my pieces in entirety, I do believe it is based on the duration of the piece. If I'm playing a sonata movement, I'm usually stopped prior to finishing.

There are usually three or four piano professors on the jury, and they are once every semester. Required for performance majors are three pieces all by memory, contrasting styles. There are also scale / arpeggio requirements for first, second, and third semester students which differs from performance to education majors.
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#1888180 - 04/29/12 12:32 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
erichlof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 366
Usually 12 people are selected to file into a courtroom and hear the prosecution and the lawyers for the defense, then they deliberate and even though the guy's guilty as sin, there's always that one juror who says, "oh I don't know - I'm not comfortable convicting him", and then everyone else is like "come on man, we want to go home to our families" then the bailiff comes in and hands the hung juror a c-note and says "the judge wants a quick trial", then the guy says...
oh wait...


Edited by erichlof (04/29/12 12:59 AM)

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#1888201 - 04/29/12 02:03 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: Redhead1]
aidans Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 141
OSK's summary is pretty much my experience. Our juries are 10 minutes. They cut you off, wherever you are, however much you get through.

Originally Posted By: Redhead1
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King

Possible effects of poor jury performance: Lower grade or if it's bad enough, failing.


I've always wondered about this. Does anyone ever actually fail a jury?? (Or even get a D?)

If so, what would happen that would be so bad that it would cause a failing grade?


Legends abound. smile

Basically, they just want to see that you're practicing and progressing.

It's possible to be kicked out of the program at my school if it's obvious you're not taking it seriously, I guess. For the average student, though, it's an opportunity to perform for the faculty, and a deadline to work toward.

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#1888787 - 04/30/12 10:05 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10344
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Well, I'll ask my son how his go at UM. He is not a performance major, but a jury is a jury for a piano student taking piano for credit. I don't think they run them differently depending on your concentration.
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#1888817 - 04/30/12 11:24 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
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Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Son responds:

Quote:
Detailed feedback wasn't given to me. Other than what my professor talked about with me I didn't actually get back any comments at all. The basic format was that I walked in, introduced myself, and they asked me which piece I wanted to start with. There was a set time limit so I did get cut off midway through both pieces. Yes, my professor was part of my jury.

-kk, so my prof. told me that the juries really don't count that much toward your final grade. At least here at Miami most of the grade is at the discretion of the prof. with the jury being icing on the cake or your final downfall. Three people sit on the juries, your professor and two other professors from the same department. Juries are once per semester and there haven't been specific requirements for me.
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#1888844 - 04/30/12 12:25 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: Piano*Dad]
DameMyra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1940
Loc: South Jersey
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Son responds:

Quote:
Detailed feedback wasn't given to me. Other than what my professor talked about with me I didn't actually get back any comments at all. The basic format was that I walked in, introduced myself, and they asked me which piece I wanted to start with. There was a set time limit so I did get cut off midway through both pieces. Yes, my professor was part of my jury.

-kk, so my prof. told me that the juries really don't count that much toward your final grade. At least here at Miami most of the grade is at the discretion of the prof. with the jury being icing on the cake or your final downfall. Three people sit on the juries, your professor and two other professors from the same department. Juries are once per semester and there haven't been specific requirements for me.


Very similar to my experience.
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#1888854 - 04/30/12 12:53 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Juries are such a weird concept for me in general. How often is the first 15 mins of your recital the best you play? It's usually the worst! To have such a short "jury", and not even cover an entire piece there after you've worked on the entire piece is just a bit strange to me. Just mark the students' recitals, for god's sake. There should be mandatory school recitals starting from 1st year, forget that jury business, it's so unsatisfactory.

I know it'll never happen, but it doesn't hurt to dream... grin

(so glad I just have adjudicated recitals and no more jury crap)
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#1888883 - 04/30/12 02:27 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: Pogorelich.]
AldenH Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Juries are such a weird concept for me in general. How often is the first 15 mins of your recital the best you play? It's usually the worst! To have such a short "jury", and not even cover an entire piece there after you've worked on the entire piece is just a bit strange to me. Just mark the students' recitals, for god's sake. There should be mandatory school recitals starting from 1st year, forget that jury business, it's so unsatisfactory.

I know it'll never happen, but it doesn't hurt to dream... grin

(so glad I just have adjudicated recitals and no more jury crap)


I completely agree - performing for an audience is so important, and it seems like a lot of students don't get the chance to nearly enough.

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#1888924 - 04/30/12 03:41 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: Pogorelich.]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13757
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Juries are for the sake of convenience, sanity, and feasibility. Look at it from the other side:

Imagine you're on faculty at a school with 40 piano majors.

Do you really want to coordinate performance/travel schedules with the other faculty and have facilities and time available to listen to 40 recitals during the school year?

(the answer is no, you really really don't)

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Juries are such a weird concept for me in general. How often is the first 15 mins of your recital the best you play? It's usually the worst! To have such a short "jury", and not even cover an entire piece there after you've worked on the entire piece is just a bit strange to me. Just mark the students' recitals, for god's sake. There should be mandatory school recitals starting from 1st year, forget that jury business, it's so unsatisfactory.

I know it'll never happen, but it doesn't hurt to dream... grin

(so glad I just have adjudicated recitals and no more jury crap)
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#1888991 - 04/30/12 06:04 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
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Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Indeed, which is why the jury process is only one (apparently small) component of a student's overall evaluation.


Kreisler,

The jury process is time-honored, but time often honors things because time honored them in the past, not because the system is somehow optimal in all circumstances. Is there any experimentation taking place that might make for more useful evaluative processes? Can we possibly set up a system that would have a cost-effective chance to transmit better information to students, and to their primary instructor, about how they are doing and what they should perhaps be doing differently.

Do professors occasionally sit in a other students' lessons? That would allow them to evaluate the other teacher's relationship with the student, and perhaps to pick up a few pointers themselves. It might be like a hall conversation, just with a student in between to spice things up!

I know at W&M, there is a week in which students are encouraged to attend other students' lessons and chime in where appropriate. I doubt this is a W&M innovation. That's another way to spread information and ideas around.
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#1889066 - 04/30/12 08:55 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
This thread makes juries sound rather perfunctory. Why are people (students) usually so worried about them then?
To me "the teacher" sounds a bit too omnipotent.

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#1889128 - 04/30/12 11:12 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: Andromaque]
Opus_Maximus Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1476
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
This thread makes juries sound rather perfunctory. Why are people (students) usually so worried about them then?
To me "the teacher" sounds a bit too omnipotent.


When I was at the Manhattan School of Music, juries were EVERYTHING. The stress and consequence of a juries there were unbelievable..

They would take place in the school's largest auditorium (1400 seats)..
Each teacher rates you (3.0, 4.1, 4.5 etc, and the numbers are averaged to give you your "Score"). Scholarships would depend on them. An increased jury score would lead to an increased scholarship, and vice versa. Chamber music/ensemble placements were also based on them (you would be paired with a duo pianist or chamber group of those with similar jury scores as you). Teacher placements were also contingent upon them (certain teachers only accepted students with jury scores above a certain number), as well as eligibility to enter concerto and other school competitions (to be eligible, you're score had to be over a certain number).

They were quite stressful endeavors..


Edited by Opus_Maximus (04/30/12 11:12 PM)

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#1889147 - 05/01/12 12:04 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: Kreisler]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Juries are for the sake of convenience, sanity, and feasibility. Look at it from the other side:

Imagine you're on faculty at a school with 40 piano majors.

Do you really want to coordinate performance/travel schedules with the other faculty and have facilities and time available to listen to 40 recitals during the school year?

(the answer is no, you really really don't)



And my answer to that is, it's time for schools to see that they are admitting too many students. Out of those typical 40 piano majors, I'd bet you only 2 of them will have a career in music. If even that. The rest will get a degree out of it, nothing else. I understand all this about money and everything, and that is what schools have become - it's a business. Literally, just a business. The more people they admit, the more $ they will get. Except for schools like Colburn and Curtis, of course, where tuition is free.

Again, it'll never happen, but I sure as helll hope some day it does.

Okay, I'll be less cynical. Even half - having 20 piano majors at a school is reasonable. That's 20 hours, roughly, of recitals. People usually work 40 hour weeks. Spread over, say, one semester, it's really not that much.


Edited by Pogorelich. (05/01/12 12:05 AM)
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#1889158 - 05/01/12 12:39 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
TrueMusic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/12
Posts: 254
Loc: San Diego, California
For me, my juries run like this:
We walk into the main performance hall, go to the piano, and play our prepared pieces in front of the piano faculty. For me, I only need two pieces prepared right now. For those are are actual piano performance majors, they need 15-20 minutes of music or 3-4 pieces. Then the faculty minus your teacher will ask for you to play some of whatever technical skill you had been working on [major minor scales, arpeggios, etc.] That's basically it. You're basically trying to show the piano faculty that you learned something this semester and have become a better pianist, having spent your time practicing technique along with actual music. As long as you actually practiced over the semester they're super chill! haha. Our profs will typically allow you to play your entire piece [rather than just requesting to hear the impossible measures, or a specific section, some schools do that.]
Also, we only have one set of juries a semester, no midterm juries. Only finals.


Edited by TrueMusic (05/01/12 12:40 AM)
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#1889163 - 05/01/12 12:47 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13757
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Pogo:

Yep, and unfortunately, 20 majors could be handled easily by 2 faculty members, which means even fewer piano jobs. It's a vicious circle!

Piano*Dad:

The amount of innovation and experimentation going on with music school curricula and assessment methods is painfully small.
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#1889289 - 05/01/12 08:09 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Less students, less teachers - but only good ones. Wouldn't that be great?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1889291 - 05/01/12 08:11 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Actually my school has about 20 pianists (it's considered high for the year) and we have 4 main teachers.. Works pretty well.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1889336 - 05/01/12 10:23 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: Pogorelich.]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13757
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Actually my school has about 20 pianists (it's considered high for the year) and we have 4 main teachers.. Works pretty well.


I'm sure it works great for the faculty and students. But here in the US, administrators and taxpayers are looking at situations like that and saying "so...why are we paying four people a total of $200,000/year to teach 20 people how to play Beethoven?"
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1889350 - 05/01/12 10:56 AM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: Kreisler]
Keith D Kerman Offline
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Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3299
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Actually my school has about 20 pianists (it's considered high for the year) and we have 4 main teachers.. Works pretty well.


I'm sure it works great for the faculty and students. But here in the US, administrators and taxpayers are looking at situations like that and saying "so...why are we paying four people a total of $200,000/year to teach 20 people how to play Beethoven?"


Other than a few exceptions, in the U.S., those teachers are getting paid per student. Those teachers would be getting at most ( again with a few exceptions ) $5000 per student per year, and at most places probably about half of that, or even less. Am I wrong?
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#1889402 - 05/01/12 12:50 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13757
Loc: Iowa City, IA
In all the universities in the US I'm familiar with, faculty receive a set salary, regardless of how many students they have; although if you don't maintain a full studio, you run the risk of getting poor performance reviews (which can result in not getting a raise or being denied tenure.) This is mostly the case with public universities. Private schools have more flexibility in how faculty appointments and reviews are handled.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1889427 - 05/01/12 01:42 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
WhoDwaldi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 244
Hum, lot's of armchair academic criticism, implied criticism, cynicism, loss of idealism, or parental platitudinalization going on here! :-)

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#1889450 - 05/01/12 02:28 PM Re: What happens on a jury? [Re: pianoloverus]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
So how does Colburn function? Or Yale... Rich donors? (honest curiousity)
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New Topics - Multiple Forums
Tone effects in Roland DP90se
by lunobili
07/09/14 09:38 PM
Keyboard Memory/Keyboard Visualization
by attaboy
07/09/14 09:14 PM
Cleaning whippen springs
by woodog
07/09/14 09:04 PM
New ES 100 Problem
by MLFLY
07/09/14 09:00 PM
What's function of vertical back-check
by Weiyan
07/09/14 08:25 PM
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