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#1893949 - 05/09/12 04:42 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
The situation is typically contradictory: improper sales policies, but some big "fictive" stores on the territory. All speak ill about them, but they are still there.

At any rate, my piano (prototype or not) is genuine brand new that has just suffered of their true mad "tampering" dealing policies or a factory default/negligence. (The CEO was very surprised when I told him the price, he said: "It's impossibile, we have sent those pianos just few days ago from the factory!")

After all, I just hope that someone (at the factory) will be so kind to help me providing the parts I need.
I don't want to become someone like a strange kind of "martyr" while everyone is shocked, but no one gets something.
I'm just a student who should study piano but instead has lost a year of life on this instrument. (I was going to get sick)

I don't want to create problems... I just would like to receive my (beloved) replacement keyboard that my technicians will set on my responsibility.

The factory will get no longer my news if not for the Christmas greetings...

(Another "accident" that I remember, when the first (Steinway) technician started to work at the action, he found a central key (the C sharp) that was without its plumbs completely. Have they used them into an another piano...?)

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#1893990 - 05/09/12 08:04 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8392
Loc: Georgia, USA
Dave, I certainly hope you get the issues with your piano resolved satisfactorily.

Where I’m from we have a saying… “too many cooks in the kitchen”. It sounds a little like this may be part of the problem in your situation.

Years ago, I got into training horses. I went from knowing nothing about horses to having a horse in my pasture that needed training. I went to the library (no internet back then) and checked out all the books I could find on training horses. I talked to all the local horse trainers who would talk to me and asked them questions. One thing I noticed was that if I asked ten different horse trainers the same question, I usually got ten different answers. I’ve found this same scenario to be true with piano technicians, except the questions pertain to pianos instead of horses. smile

Maybe you need to fine the best of the best technician and stick with them through thick and thin... (if you have not already done so.)

Maybe this thread will help to yield some positive results for you in the long run…

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1893997 - 05/09/12 08:15 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Rickster]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Yes, thank You.

As above I have already done this "best of the best" (my technicians were Steinway Academy registered), but there is an impassable problem: the uncorrectly sawn keyboard. It's not matter of taste or different horse trainers.

Should I get also the right keyboard by myself without any correct design reference?

Should I spend even more money (a custom made keyboard costs at least 2000 Euro in my country) for the copy of a correct keyboard that I don't have? (My family have spent not less than 2300 euro up to know to "buffer" the problems)

Should I call an expensive technician (again) to do a work of which is just impossible to predict the results?

No, You see, it is folly.

Is it so pretentious to ask a factory to provide a keyboard that I'll pay in all the expences even in the warranty period? Other brands provide keyboards without problems and we (My technicians and I) were sure that they would provide it. But they wouldn't.

It's a year that we are stop here and the situation is made even more paradoxical by the factory's: "yes, new keyboard for you".

The dealer and the 'factory' are different persons, but they seem to be the same.

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#1894132 - 05/09/12 12:26 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14116
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
o.k here's some things I found out in your case:

The dealer is no longer a dealer.
There were large debts owed to Brodmann company that were never paid. In fact when someone from factory came by to collect these debts, he was was physically threatened with a blunt weapon.

The piano was sold to you for an unrealistically low price. The price was actually near or below wholesale.
This indicates the dealer wanted to collect some cash and had no intention to pay for the piano which was sold "on consignment"

Brodmann at this point can hardly be held responsible.
The dealer is who he is. You have been victimized by this guy - not the company.

There is the possibility the dealer 'switched' some parts or components on the piano which makes the case even more outrageous. I have no proof of this but the description of your piano defies the experience with same instrument by every dealer aware of your case.

I don't know how the laws are in Italy if there's any.
It's an outrageous case, unimaginable in this part of the world. Strong arming is not what's happening here.

You have my complete sympathy and the one of every reader here. My advice at this point would be this:

State very clearly what the piano exactly does or does *not* do for you. I wouldn't right now worry about the 'size of hammers' or stuff like this.

Ask yourself in which way does the keyboard and all the other things interfere with normal playing and enjoyment of the instrument?

Than concentrate on those.

Be as precise as possible, you will get more advice after that.

You chose the piano when it was still playing to your liking. In my belief and from my experience this is still an attainable goal.

Here to help.

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1894144 - 05/09/12 12:40 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Norbert]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Norbert


Brodmann at this point can hardly be held responsible.
The dealer is who he is. You have been victimized by this guy - not the company.




Yes, but wouldn't it be nice for Brodmann to step up to the plate and get the OP the parts for his piano at wholesale cost, or better yet free? It appears that Brodmann is doing very little insofar as trying to make him happy.

Individual expense vs company write-off -- there's a big difference.

As for the dealer, let's hope he's out of business by now.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1894163 - 05/09/12 01:09 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14116
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Yes, but wouldn't it be nice for Brodmann to step up to the plate and get the OP the parts for his piano at wholesale cost, or better yet free? It appears that Brodmann is doing very little insofar as trying to make him happy.


Are you sure of this?

If a supplier doesn't get paid for merchandise, something that would quickly void the dealership agreement in any other industry, he's then later held responsible for the "warranty" of the merchandise that was basically stolen from him?

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (05/09/12 01:10 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1894175 - 05/09/12 01:23 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Norbert]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Yes, but wouldn't it be nice for Brodmann to step up to the plate and get the OP the parts for his piano at wholesale cost, or better yet free? It appears that Brodmann is doing very little insofar as trying to make him happy.


Are you sure of this?

If a supplier doesn't get paid for merchandise, something that would quickly void the dealership agreement in any other industry, he's then later held responsible for the "warranty" of the merchandise that was basically stolen from him?

Norbert


Am I sure of what? A write off is a write off. It's an unfortunate case, but it appears that Brodmann needed to be more careful of who was handling their piano sales.
In the long run though, an individual is stuck with an unplayable instrument, and Brodmann appears to be the only one that is able to rectify the situation.
If you weren't a Brodmann dealer, what would you suggest Brodmann do? Wouldn't you think that the company has deeper pockets than a university student?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1894183 - 05/09/12 01:29 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Norbert]
ProdigalPianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 1049
Loc: Phoenix Metro, AZ
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Yes, but wouldn't it be nice for Brodmann to step up to the plate and get the OP the parts for his piano at wholesale cost, or better yet free? It appears that Brodmann is doing very little insofar as trying to make him happy.


Are you sure of this?

If a supplier doesn't get paid for merchandise, something that would quickly void the dealership agreement in any other industry, he's then later held responsible for the "warranty" of the merchandise that was basically stolen from him?

Norbert


We've had somewhat similar discussions about manufacturer/dealer responsibility before.

The manufacturer *chose* to enter into a business relationship with the dealer, and allowed him to (at least somewhat) represent their line of pianos (if you want to quibble about whether he was an authorized dealer or not...at the bare minimum they shipped him the piano. He did not buy it from another party. They gave him, apparently, credit.)

The consumer purchased a new piano from a dealer that Brodmann chose to work with. It's not like the dealer *stole* the piano off a truck without Brodmann's knowledge and then sold it.

There is no indication whatsoever, so far, that the consumer has done anything to warrant their having to suffer for the wrongdoing of the dealer. Given that Brodmann had the opportunity to vet this dealer (or, *should* have done), IMO it is exceptionally shortsighted of them to not suck it up and make it right for this consumer. Business people take on risk for profit. The manufacturer took the risk of giving the piano to the dealer on consignment. And now the consumer is getting the short end of the stick because Brodmann doesn't want to send them a new action?

Knowledge is power, and consumer knowledge is more powerful now than at any other time in history. A piano is a significant expense for the average family and I, personally, would not feel comfortable buying a new piano from a manufacturer who has not shown that they will stand behind their dealer network and their new pianos.
_________________________
Adult Amateur Pianist

My only domestic quality is that I live in a house.

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#1894211 - 05/09/12 02:30 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2271
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Good work, Norbert. This is a nightmare scenario.
_________________________
Gary Schenk

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#1894234 - 05/09/12 03:08 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2333
Loc: Lowell MA
It is interesting that any manufacturer would be in the position of warranting something that was stolen from them.

There are circumstances here in the US that could potentially put that consumer in the position of receiving stolen goods .. and have to return the goods regardless of having payed someone for it.

I am certainly not any authority on the law here in the US or anywhere .. Perhaps there is an attorney that would comment?
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
facebook.com/E. J. Buck & Sons Performances

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#1894251 - 05/09/12 03:52 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14116
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
To me, this is all about consumer satisfaction.

By same token, the standards for this are very different in different parts of the world.

There also may be different dealer-arrangements including warranty coverage in different countries.
For example,in Germany it's mostly 5 years....

We still don't know all facts of the case and it certainly is not Dave's fault to be confused and/or frustrated by all of this.

Fact is also that have been several techs at work by now and in North America we would immediately ask if they have been "authorized" by dealer or manufacturer including what exact work they had been doing.

We also have no statements by either dealer or manufacturer, but I am personally in contact with Brodmann about this.

Sometimes it is difficult for a manufacturer to directly get involved online, so I am trying my best to help shed some light on the situation and help customer at same time. If the consensus is that Brodmann is directly owing or responsible for any thing here, here let it come out and be known.

In the meantime there are a lot of facts needing to be established. This is also a great opportunity for the dealer to state his case. A greatly missed opportunity so far.

Here's some things one can assume as pretty "safe" facts::

1] if I'd swing an iron bar at someone coming from me trying to collect money it'll be quite safe to assume the relationship is over. There simply ain't no "business as usual" after. It's a bit unrealistic to assume otherwise.

At same time I doubt that Brodmann would have chosen such company knowing in advance their life might be in danger collecting debts. After all, this is Italy... cry

2] It may be a company's "fault" to pick the wrong dealer but this does not automatically imply liability later on.
Especially in case of outright theft.

Question is who would one choose in any foreign country if there's not much to rely upon from previous contacts.

Let's not forget there are many cases where dealers have closed doors right here at home before leaving scores of customers behind....

3]Perhaps someone else does but I still do not fully understand exactly what the problem with this piano is. Only when a qualified technician can give the details in perhaps better to understand technical terminology, can such case be properly assessed. Especially long distance....

From my understanding Brodmann has been willing to help all along but there seems to be some problems with communication and especially what exactly the problem seems to be.

Just because a third party tech says this or that is wrong or a problem - it doesn't necessarily mean it "is".
[had one sore case like this of my own recently... cry]

One needs to know more exactly and independently so what is or is "not" working properly and what exactly the reason for this is.

Knowing the 212 grand intimately, a piano often singled out for praise, should have given us dealers some insight what could have possibly happened here.

In talking to several,it has *not*.

Perhaps a tech with Italian language skills could be appointed or found to bring this case to a happy conclusion.

After all we need to bring some kind of back dolce vita back to our friend!

After all, this is Italy...

Norbert thumb



Edited by Norbert (05/09/12 04:23 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1894255 - 05/09/12 03:57 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8392
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
It is interesting that any manufacturer would be in the position of warranting something that was stolen from them.

There are circumstances here in the US that could potentially put that consumer in the position of receiving stolen goods .. and have to return the goods regardless of having payed someone for it.

I am certainly not any authority on the law here in the US or anywhere .. Perhaps there is an attorney that would comment?

Larry, I think that conclusion is a little drastic, though I have heard of things like that happening with consumers who purchased new or used vehicles from unscrupulous car dealers; usually, the vehicles were repossessed by the manufacturer, bank or lean holder and any money paid by the buyer was lost; it would be the buyer's responsibility to go after the seller for fraud.

I must say I’ve never heard of anything like that happening with a piano purchase. I suppose anything is possible.

The way I see it, Dave and his family purchased the piano in good faith, from whom they assumed was an authorized dealer… they had no idea or any way of knowing what was going on behind the scenes.

I suppose this is why organizations like the BBB, Governors office of Consumer Affairs (or Piano World smile ) are a good thing for consumer protection. (In the US at least)

Rick



Edited by Rickster (05/09/12 03:59 PM)
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1894273 - 05/09/12 04:29 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Rickster]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2333
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
It is interesting that any manufacturer would be in the position of warranting something that was stolen from them.

There are circumstances here in the US that could potentially put that consumer in the position of receiving stolen goods .. and have to return the goods regardless of having payed someone for it.

I am certainly not any authority on the law here in the US or anywhere .. Perhaps there is an attorney that would comment?

Larry, I think that conclusion is a little drastic, though I have heard of things like that happening with consumers who purchased new or used vehicles from unscrupulous car dealers; usually, the vehicles were repossessed by the manufacturer, bank or lean holder and any money paid by the buyer was lost; it would be the buyer's responsibility to go after the seller for fraud.

I must say I’ve never heard of anything like that happening with a piano purchase. I suppose anything is possible.

The way I see it, Dave and his family purchased the piano in good faith, from whom they assumed was an authorized dealer… they had no idea or any way of knowing what was going on behind the scenes.

I suppose this is why organizations like the BBB, Governors office of Consumer Affairs (or Piano World smile ) are a good thing for consumer protection. (In the US at least)

Rick



Rick, I agree, my point was drastic. It was intended to be Devils advocate to the opinion that Broadman is directly responsible already.

There is a lot to learn before assigning responsibility.

As Norbert has also pointed out.

Pictures of the piano and several of the action from all angles would be fun to see ....???
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
facebook.com/E. J. Buck & Sons Performances

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#1894284 - 05/09/12 04:51 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Norbert]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Norbert

Perhaps a tech with Italian language skills could be appointed or found to bring this case to a happy conclusion.



Dave,

I have sent an email to a technician I know in Italy. I have asked him to read over this thread and speak to you in your own language and assist if he is able.

I believe he is in the Palermo region as he does work at the University of Palermo.

As Larry Buck has mentioned a good sold by a dealer who refuses to pay the supplier is considered a stolen good, under common law in every jurisdiction.

The difference would be how goods stolen in this manner are treated by the Italian law and court system.

Also the suggestion by Larry for photos is a good one.

Dave you could go a long way to helping yourself here by taking a series of photos of the complaints you have of the instrument and post them on this forum.

While most technicians such as myself and Larry would be un-able to assist with corrections from a distance, this would give all members and non-members of the forum reading this thread a better idea of what the complaints are, or are not, along with possible remedies.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1894288 - 05/09/12 04:57 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
there are two possibilities only:

the first: I haven't explained the facts clearly yet (but honestly I doubt it)

the second: everyone (with the power to get something) is trying not to get to a solution (and it is strange, because I'm asking a thing made of cheap spruce).

- the dealer of this case is already the distributor of the brand

- The factory says to choose its dealers carefully: I just trust them and bought my piano.

-when I asked for explanations about the strangely low price, they said me "It's a new brand: launch price". The explanation seemed credible and I bought my piano.

- I've spent after over 2300 euro to buffering the problems of my piano (because problems were everywhere) without the help of any warranty support and without asking for money

- when I was sad because they were too consistent problems, I tried (only after) to call the factory as the "last resort" and looking just for the keyboard.

- The factory didn't refused my requests (they could) and after seeing the pictures, was persuaded by the truth of my problems.


I repeat: the keyboard is unproperly sawn and the wood of the keys is not properly squared and it works "crooked", in particular in the bass section where the keys are more angled. I'm not a technician, but (I hope) not an uneducated person. That's clear to me.

See You soon, goodbye.


(just for the record: when the dealer delivered the piano, he has fled like a hare leaving without the opportunity of try and control the piano)

(Stolen? He is the official distributor and other dealers in my country call him to have pianos of this brand for their stores! Sorry, I'm nobody's fool).

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#1894296 - 05/09/12 05:09 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14116
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Questions over questions.

Could all of this be a simple regulation problem?

It's time to get pictures.....

Norbert cool
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1894298 - 05/09/12 05:13 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
P.S. I undestand now that I have to wait, to put money apart (to my family are a lot of money) and buy a keyboard by myself.

You say that U.S.A. has different policies, but I see that it is all the same: nobody helps nobody losing and wasting his and our time (and money).

In Italy we say: "Tutto il mondo è paese" (the world is everywhere the same) and it seems so.


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#1894300 - 05/09/12 05:16 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
- I've send pictures on this forum one year ago and nothing happened

- As a technician you CLEARLY know that you cannot see this kind of problems by a picture

- Again words? It's allright: the words are going to stop immediately.

I don't need to be mystified in this overbearing way by this forum anymore.

My family and I suffered a lot, we are not telling jokes.

This is too much disrespectful.

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#1894303 - 05/09/12 05:25 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
You are all very inaccurate also:

if a person has spent over 2300 euro (tax expenses provable) in technician support, do you think that you would see a wreck through a (digital) picture?

Please: do not make yourself ridiculous.

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#1894304 - 05/09/12 05:27 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2333
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
- I've send pictures on this forum one year ago and nothing happened

- As a technician you CLEARLY know that you cannot see this kind of problems by a picture

- Again words? It's allright: the words are going to stop immediately.

I don't need to be mystified in this overbearing way by this forum anymore.

My family and I suffered a lot, we are not telling jokes.

This is too much disrespectful.
\

Still, perhaps you could re post the pictures ....
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
facebook.com/E. J. Buck & Sons Performances

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#1894305 - 05/09/12 05:28 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Do you read what I write? I think not.

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#1894308 - 05/09/12 05:35 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8392
Loc: Georgia, USA
Hi Dave,

I went back and read your other thread here about your problems with your piano. I did not see any pictures in that thread, unless I overlooked them.

Also, several of our dealer members here were very helpful to you in that thread, as they have tried to be in this one... If nothing tangible has been done, it is not because many here on this forum have not tried to help as best they could.

And, we do sympathize with your situation...

Not sure what else to say, other than I wish for you the best outcome possible.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1894311 - 05/09/12 05:46 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I don't care.

I just thank Seeker that helped me with very polite private messages on this forum.

He believed me and he had some pictures of my piano without any problems.

I just cannot make myself put on a trial this way. The "murderer" it's not me.

Best regards.

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#1894364 - 05/09/12 07:31 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14116
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Dave:

I and many others here believe you too.

The only way to be of more effective help is to get a pictural view of what is actually happening.

I recently used some pictures about a piano myself and was very grateful for the help I received.

There's many helpful & knowledgeable people here: pictures speak volumes, even if they don't appear to you.

I tried to find some of yours in the archives but couldn't find them.

Would you be kind enough to publish [or pm] them again?

Many thanks,

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (05/09/12 07:32 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1894368 - 05/09/12 07:40 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier

Is it so pretentious to ask a factory to provide a keyboard that I'll pay in all the expences even in the warranty period? Other brands provide keyboards without problems and we (My technicians and I) were sure that they would provide it. But they wouldn't.

It's clear that there is a problem here. He's asking for a keyboard direct from the factory, and is willing to pay for it, but Brodmann is unable to supply him with one. Why is that? Why is it taking them a year to provide something they should have in stock, or is it that the 212 that he bought a prototype that now has a different action?

If it is NOT the same action that they currently use, then I can see the delay and/or reluctance to providing him one. But I also think it is time now for Brodmann personal to at least clarify what their position is, rather than have Dave think that something more sinister (aside from the dealer) is happening. I'm sure Brodmann would like a happy ending to this too, wouldn't they?
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#1894404 - 05/09/12 09:00 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
- The factory didn't refused my requests (they could) and after seeing the pictures, was persuaded by the truth of my problems.

I repeat: the keyboard is improperly sawn and the wood of the keys is not properly squared and it works "crooked", in particular in the bass section where the keys are more angled. I'm not a technician, but (I hope) not an uneducated person. That's clear to me.


I don’t believe anyone is putting the OP on trial here, some are asking for further information by way of photos.

Just so I understand this completely;

Dave has shown photos to the factory.

Apparently someone by the name of Mr. Kraus has emailed in private and has been offered photos to view.

Surely an incorrectly sawn keyboard can be shown here, along with incorrectly squared off key set; after all, it was shown to others. Easy to show these things by way of photos, along with the messed up hammer set.

But when asked to show photos of the specific problem, or multiple problems here in this thread suddenly offense is taken and now there is to be no more discussion according to the OP.

How any of this becomes offensive or makes the OP, in his characterization, a murderer, is beyond me.
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#1894484 - 05/09/12 11:44 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

It's clear that there is a problem here. He's asking for a keyboard direct from the factory, and is willing to pay for it, but Brodmann is unable to supply him with one. Why is that? Why is it taking them a year to provide something they should have in stock, or is it that the 212 that he bought a prototype that now has a different action?

If it is NOT the same action that they currently use, then I can see the delay and/or reluctance to providing him one. But I also think it is time now for Brodmann personal to at least clarify what their position is, rather than have Dave think that something more sinister (aside from the dealer) is happening. I'm sure Brodmann would like a happy ending to this too, wouldn't they?



Thank You, I'm very grateful for your words.

Differently from they are thinking, I'm just starting to do my interests like them because some dealers and technicians have the bad habit of passing customers for fools.

They try to protect their category, I have to do the same with mine: the customer.

It's the last time I repeat that the keyboard, the action and the hammers have been RE-WORKED by qualified technicians and there's nothing to see in a picture if not common grand piano parts: you have to ANALIZE technically with proper tools and sincerity (if You have one) and then perhaps you could find that something is totally in the wrong place.

Are you technicians, aren't You? So I know that You see what I mean.

That's why I asked something concrete to the factory: just a new keyboard with price charge and they have promised it.

I haven't requested technical support, opinions, annoyances, absurd claims even to prevent more wasting time and money.

Just a normal, common replacement keyboard. That's all.



For the rest, I don't want to RE-publish any pictures of my piano because I don't care: I was here trying to figure out if the company has made honest and sincere promises and correct suggestions or not.

The truth is that you just want to watch in my pants to protect the brands that You sell.


It is reasonable to feel that the factory has led that "senseless" policy since from the start and if the promises will be really broken, my technicians are ready to inform Europiano Foundation.



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#1894549 - 05/10/12 02:39 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
joe80 Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1080
I think it would be nice for someone from Brodmann to at least inspect the piano. Our original poster has spent a lot of time and money trying to put this piano right and he is at the end of what he can bear with it.

We've established that the dealer was in the wrong in the first place, and the piano should be covered by the factory warranty whether or not the dealer pays the factory. The consumer bought in good faith - that is basically what a court in the U.K. would say to that. However, we're not talking about the U.K and I have no idea what the Italian courts would say about this.

The bottom line though, is, can the original poster not just pay Brodmann to come and fit a new keyboard to his piano?

Sometimes, pianos leave factories and mistakes have been made in the manufacture. Perhaps the dealer sold a different 212 to the one that Dave played in the showroom, knowing that there was a problem with it (maybe that was part of the reason for the low price). Surely then, Brodmann could just honour the request and send a technician out. Austria and Italy aren't so far apart after all! At one time, parts of Italy were in the same empire ;-)

Davehammerklavier, we are taking you seriously, it's just that many people are astounded by what happened with your piano and that is why there is an air of disbelief. Brodmann is a good make for the money and most people have had no problems.

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#1894681 - 05/10/12 10:19 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I agree. A friend of mine has no problem and he has showed me his piano parts: his keyboard is perfectly sawn and working.

BUT, I just want a shipped keyboard because if I have to wait the factory technician (believe me, I tried also this way), I'll have to wait another year (with the unfortunate possibility that he could say "good keyboard"...!)

One year has elapsed, not few days.

The insult to the injury. No, thanks.

They are just dishonest.

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#1894709 - 05/10/12 11:09 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21257
Loc: Oakland
The problem started with "soft hammers" and has progressed to "bad keyboard." That is suspicious in itself.

Even if there might be a warranty claim here, it has to be proven. There are two sides the to every story, and we have only heard one, and it is inconsistent. Sometimes these stories are cases of PEBKAC.
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