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#1890938 - 05/04/12 08:40 AM Brodmann 212 Adventure...
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Good morning to all. I have a very simple, but seemingly unsolvable problem on my brand new 212 hammers: the size/dimensions of them.

Even if new, perhaps due to a bad original set, a new set of hammers is in need.

The same size/typology of Abel hammers is not in the Abel normal catalogue (they are "custom made hammers") and my technician could ask for them with a special order.

But, the real problem is that: when he asked for safe a confirmation to the factory chief technician about that hammers, he told him an hammer size completely different from our original size.

A friend of mine that bought the same 212 some months before me, has the same hammer heads size of mine.

Anybody has the same piano or can verify PE212 hammer heads size? Many thanks indeed

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#1890943 - 05/04/12 08:48 AM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3327
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
What is specifically wrong with the size/dimension of your current hammers? What is happening in the piano that you attribute to a wrong size hammer?

Finding a replacement hammer for that piano from Abel or Renner is not a big deal at all, if that is what is necessary.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1890951 - 05/04/12 09:03 AM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Thank you.

My original Abel hammerheads are 86/76 total lenght, 10.5/11 width.

The suggested factory specs are: 80/72 - 11.6/11.6 : completely different hammers.

I would like to change my hammers just because they are too soft for my piano use, but that's not the problem.

The problem is: what is the right size? The original one or the suggested one?

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#1891064 - 05/04/12 12:08 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8535
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
I would like to change my hammers just because they are too soft for my piano use, but that's not the problem.

The problem is: what is the right size? The original one or the suggested one?

I can see your dilemma and your confusion… what’s currently on the piano is different from what the manufacturer says should be on the piano. Maybe there is a logical explanation… the manufacturer changed the specs? The custom built hammers were too costly? The new specs are an improvement?

As far as the current hammers being too soft, can they be juiced or voiced up to suit your tastes? I would think the voicing route would be much less expensive than a new set of hammers…

Oh yea, one more thing… if you do find the exact hammers that are currently on your piano and replace them with the same hammers, would you not have the same problem with softness?

Good luck either way.

Rick


Edited by Rickster (05/04/12 12:10 PM)
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1891090 - 05/04/12 12:59 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I know, it's difficult to speak about this kind of things.

I'll try to explain this "adventure" better.

A professional technician tried to re-work the original hammers, but now I feel the fact that the hammer is a little "smaller" than new, producing a sound that is somehow "smaller" and softer, with less volume.
He said: "Yes, it's so: this instrument was sounding unusually good..."

As a test, the technician installed after some hammers with the measures given by factory that are more common (he had them in his laboratory). The result has been an amplification of the first re-working attempt: smaller the hammer, smaller the sound.
(I don't like it at all, it's just like to have a different grand piano)

So I was wondering if someone could help me to know if this size of 86/76 (or something similar: the size suggested by factory is objectively/technically on an "another planet") hammers is provided on some others 212 or not.

Differently, as regards the hammer "hardness", the problem could solved easily: Abel produces an "hard pressure felt". (this is "medium" instead)


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#1891105 - 05/04/12 01:18 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21529
Loc: Oakland
If you want the piano to be louder, play it louder.

Hammers tend to get harder with play, so if you feel the piano is not quite brilliant enough, play it for a while and it should get to a point where you like it. A good voicer can possibly speed the process.

Doing more than that will cost you more money without guaranteed results.

86/76 refers to the hammer bore length, which depends on the physical characteristics of the piano: the distance from the keybed to the string in the bass and treble. Those distances cannot be changed without redesigning the action or the piano.
_________________________
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#1891111 - 05/04/12 01:24 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3327
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Hi Dave,

Everything in the hammer affects the tone and range of a piano. The hammers weight, its shape, its material, how it is voiced, etc etc.

You are jumping to conclusions that may be incorrect. A lighter hammer does not necessarily produce less sound, it depends on how it is working with that particular soundboard. A lighter hammer can produce a smaller sound, or it can produce a larger sound depending on the piano's design.

You did the right thing in trying sample hammers on your Brodmann. But, assuming that a hammer's weight is the problem when it can be so many other possibilities can get you into a new problem.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#1891122 - 05/04/12 01:36 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
That's why it's hard to explain...

Believe me: I'm already aware of all the factors involved (our technician more than me) and I worn the original hammers in few weeks because I play very loud and for long periods of time.

I think that my piano just needs his original hammer size (86/76 TOTAL lenght): I'm sure that at the factory didn't installed them accidentally.... It was superb.

With other sizes (considering all the aspects of tuning, conditions, ect.) it's on an another planet. It's not a metter of tastes, but technically different.

I'm just in trouble now because factory said us a totally different hammer set (not only in lenght, but also in width... they seems to be for a piano with a different design).


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#1891137 - 05/04/12 02:05 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
Quote:
A lighter hammer does not necessarily produce less sound, it depends on how it is working with that particular soundboard. A lighter hammer can produce a smaller sound, or it can produce a larger sound depending on the piano's design.



Keith gave the best answer to the problem.

Heavier hammers can create excessive damping on the string reducing the output. Usually above G4 the first pulse of the strings occurs while the hammer remains in contact with the string; adding heavier hammers may have a negative effect on the sound of the piano.

As Keith already mentioned this problem is likely to be in the design of the piano. For instance a soundboard with not enough stiffness or hammers contacting the string too far into the speaking length can cause less volume.

If you are going to replace the hammers go with whatever specifications were given to you by the manufacturer as they are likely to know what is best for that scale design.
The hammers on your piano perhaps are completely wrong. If the hammers installed on the piano were not the adequate size probably the manufacturer's warranty will cover the replacement.
_________________________
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#1891152 - 05/04/12 02:40 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Your tips and considerations are right and indisputable (and well known by me),

but this case is something different (I know it's hard to undestand and believe: that's why I am in trouble):

- my piano is brand new (10 months of life), but the only dealer/distributor in my country is a well-known legally warnered and unsavory person: he doesn't offer warranty support, simply. (I obviously discover that after)

- This piano is a particular version: Bolduc soundboard and pinblock (as artist series).

- I bought it not for the price, but for the sound: objectively astonishing (and completely different from others of the same size and brand).

- I worn out the hammers due to their softness and after the technician "tapering" it was not as brand new (obviously: it was like those "not to be touched pianos", but due to the fact that's not a steinway, nobody seems to believe me).

- The first (quite famous) technician said me the same "beautiful and wise words" as above, asked me a lot of money and leave me just a nasty "good piano". (perhaps he also damaged the original hammers)

- I asked for a different technician who said me: these are totally different hammers, it's obvious that you could only have different results (I believe it)

- The original hammers weren't wrong, but simply too soft for my utilization

- This piano sounded big, loud, strong, full, expressive as in a dream (a true "artist instrument" in that sense): now it's like a common study piano.

Even a deaf could feel the gap.

- Abel Hard felt is quite similar to the "medium": the only difference is that it's more proof and a little (very little) bit more "open". (It's quite difficult to discern one from the other).

- I'm quite sure that the suggested factory specs are not the right ones for this piano (Perhaps they don't even know they have made this piano....)

-A friend of mine has the same specs of mine: did the factory go wrong twice?

I'm sure that it's all more clear now.

In other words I'm just looking for a confirm that another 212 has the same hammer size of mine as well, because I want to install his original hammers, not the one choosed by a technician or suggested by the "on duty" chief "accidentally".

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#1891228 - 05/04/12 04:54 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21529
Loc: Oakland
If you are playing so loud that you have worn out the hammers, then you should be thankful that you have soft hammers. Otherwise you would be looking at replacing the strings, an additional expense. Wearing hammers like that is not a warranty issue, it is normal wear.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1891230 - 05/04/12 04:55 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Dave:

This is a very unusual case, lets see how one can help:

1] First of all, yours is the new AS series from Germany, specifications for the piano are "either Abel or Renner" - couldn't find sizes officially recommended for this particular piano..

2] it would be very unusual for a German factory not to quickly detect a mix up between 2 different types of hammers, yet theoretically it can happen anywhere...

3] what exact work was done by your first technician on the original set: it's virtually unheard of that Renners or Abels wear out in such short time requiring this type major work

4] any chance the first tech boo-booed on 'reshaping' the hammers? Got Pictures of his job?

5] what exactly did Brodmann technical director advise to do next, did you talk to him personally?

6] Keith and others hit the nail on head by saying that tone of piano, dynamic range, etc ca be accomplished by other means than size of hammer only.

I guarantee there are several members on the board here who would be effective in changing things to your 100% liking.

What's the recommended step by Brodmann to be taken next?

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (05/04/12 04:59 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1891576 - 05/05/12 08:28 AM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
Lots of people have answered Dave, but no one has answered his question. Anybody have the hammer specs off of an existing 212?
_________________________
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#1891625 - 05/05/12 10:31 AM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: BoseEric]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: BoseEric
Lots of people have answered Dave, but no one has answered his question. Anybody have the hammer specs off of an existing 212?


Many thanks! That's my simple goal.

I know by heart the good technical discourses and up to now they did not lead to anything but a lot of wasted money (I'm a student).

I just would like to know the original size of the hammers for my piano and put them brand new inside it again: what could be more reasonable?

I'm not interested in anything that is different from the original project. (no different hammers, no changes of the original project and no miraculous technical interventions)

The dealer re-tuned the hammers before the delivery, perhaps he did a bad work. The first technician removed too much felt from my hammers and now I can have just an "extimate" about the original size.

If someone has the same instrument in his house or in his store and could check the 212 hammer size (the first hammer and the last one), I'll be infinitely grateful to him.


Edited by Davehammerklavier (05/05/12 10:49 AM)

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#1891650 - 05/05/12 11:19 AM Re: Brodmann 212 original hammer heads size [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8535
Loc: Georgia, USA
This may sound like a stupid question, but as I read this thread it seems to me that the original hammers were apparently ruined by the dealer before delivery or the first technician when he reshaped and voiced the current hammers after only 6 months of very hard playing.

If this is the case, how do you know what size the original hammers were/are, since they have been altered and reshaped?

Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
My original Abel hammerheads are 86/76 total lenght, 10.5/11 width.

How do you know this if the original hammers were reshaped by the first technician after only 6 months? In other words, where did you get this info on the original hammer size on your piano when new?

Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
The suggested Brodmann specs are: 80/72 - 11.6/11.6 : completely different hammers.

This is apparently what Broadmann says is the right hammer size now on current production 212’s. It seems to me that only a Broadmann factory representative could answer your question at this point in time. Otherwise, it is a guessing game as to what the actual factory specs (on your current piano) should be.

It’s a shame that you are not getting more assistance and cooperation from your dealer. I hope you find the information you are looking for…

Rick


Edited by Rickster (05/05/12 11:21 AM)
_________________________
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#1891660 - 05/05/12 11:33 AM Re: Brodmann 212 original hammer heads size [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I'm not telling jokes, it's just difficult to sum up events happened in months.

I can "extimate" the original hammer size for two reasons:

- a friend of mine bought the same 212 in the same store, place and time (but not Bolduc) and he has 86/76 - 11/11,5 hammers

- the actual "re-worked" original hammers in my piano are 83/72 - 11/11,5 (about: they have been reworked manually) and it's mathemathically evident that they are already bigger than the suggested factory specs.

- when the factory suggested us the specs, they confused the bass with the treble size: that's is an another reason (than the others) that makes me doubt about the correctness of that suggestion.

- when I called the first technician, I wasn't "expert" enought about hammers: only now I can say that hammers were NOT ruined, but they just need a light reshape.

The dealer for my country sell their brand new grand pianos at 1/3 of the total list price and does not offer warranty support at all.

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#1891669 - 05/05/12 11:51 AM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
As I have pointed out the AS 212 is a brand new piano, one that after selling dozens of Brodmanns, I have never seen myself.

In fact I have never seen one even offered to any dealer so Italy must be ahead of the game.

The only place to get "specs" for this piano from would be the factory or Brodmann itself.

What exactly was the answer when contacting company brass and what has since been done or offered to be done?

We're only all just left guessing around....

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (05/05/12 11:54 AM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1891676 - 05/05/12 12:00 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I have not said that it's an Artist series, but "as an artist series" due to the bolduc soundboard and pinblock. (but like some first artist series pianos, it is marked as professional. Perhaps an experiment! smile )

I waited two weeks for the specs, they also forgot to tell me the specs until I called them again. I'm quite disturbed by the all warranty support, but (please) I don't want to speak about that kind of things. (I'm honestly tired)

I'm just looking for a confirm about the 86/76 hammers (because they could even be 88/80: who knows?). I'll provide for the new hammer set without asking nothing.


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#1891687 - 05/05/12 12:17 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Dear Dave:

Very sad to hear you're having all this problem.

Honest, there's noone who could help you other than factory directly. Yours may very well be a prototype.

I can pm you direct tel numbers of Colin Miles, technical director for Brodmann in Great Britain. Or Frederik Steffes from Steinberg factory near Eisenach Germany

If like, I can get also in contact with either of the above on your behalf.

Let's get to the bottom of this.

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (05/05/12 12:20 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1891697 - 05/05/12 12:38 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Norbert]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Dear Dave:

Very sad to hear you're having all this problem.

Honest, there's noone who could help you other than factory directly. Yours may very well be a prototype.

I can pm you direct tel numbers of Colin Miles, technical director for Brodmann in Great Britain. Or Frederik Steffes from Steinberg factory near Eisenach Germany

If like, I can get also in contact with either of the above on your behalf.

Let's get to the bottom of this.

Norbert smile


The hammers is not the only one problem that I have with the brand. Due to the fact that it's probably a prototype, the sound was wonderful, but a lot of problems happened later and a lot of "parts incompatibility" emerged.

Infact I'm waiting for a keyboard replacement from the factory (I'll pay the whole service and keyboard, that will be probably without plumbs and backchecks), but nobody have been kept in touch with me for more than a month and if I ask a simple question that they should know very well, it seems it's a problem and they confuse the bass size with the treble one. You see, I just cannot trust in this service.
(even if I love my experimental grand piano)

(Due to the fact that this kind of things are difficult to define and to solve and there's no support in my coutry, I said to the factory something like: "I do not claim anything, I pay everything You want, but, please, send me the original parts for my piano".

But nothing has happened yet since last september)

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#1891748 - 05/05/12 02:26 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Norbert]
Seeker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 360
Loc: Rockville, MD
Norbert - it's great of you to offer to help put the OP in touch with key people at Brodmann.

Perhaps there is another way to get him the answer?

Is it possible that the Abel people would have records of which hammers were sent to Brodmann? If the OP were able to give Abel the specific manufacture date and serial number, is it possible that the Abel people would be able to help?
====================================
On another point, it seems to me from what the OP has described - that the hammers needed a LOT of filing and reshaping after just two months, that the original hammers, though they sounded great, are too soft to stand up to professional level practicing 6 to 8 hours a day. He now states he doesn't want to change anything, so it seems, at the least, that he'll need monthly voicing appointments if everything remains the same.

If he went with harder hammers, would they last longer? Could they be voiced to sound like the original softer ones, and what would be involved in that?
=================================
_________________________
Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
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Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")

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#1891755 - 05/05/12 02:32 PM Re: Brodmann 212 hammer heads size problem [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I can answer:

- Abel does not know the original size

- the hard felt does not worn and does not affect the sound: I tested it by myself

- the original hammers did not needed a lot of filling: the technician did a lot of it, perhaps to force me to buy his new hammer heads set.... (he said that the brodmann original hammers were not original Abel hammers(!!)


Edited by Davehammerklavier (05/05/12 03:01 PM)

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#1891802 - 05/05/12 04:37 PM Re: Brodmann 212 original hammer heads size [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
(he said that the brodmann original hammers were not original Abel hammers(!!)


One moment:

Are you saying that the original hammers were not Abels at all?

The mystery deepens....

Norbert confused
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1891882 - 05/05/12 07:00 PM Re: Brodmann 212 original hammer heads size [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
the technician said: "that are Chinese (Fake) Abel hammers."

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#1891976 - 05/05/12 10:35 PM Re: Brodmann 212 original hammer heads size [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
This piano is a particular version: Bolduc soundboard and pinblock (as artist series).


But you said it's actually a PE series piano, so your piano appears to be indeed a prototype or one of a kind?

Perhaps to bring more light to the story, could you send picture or details of exact model type and serial number?

Dave, you once brought up your piano before in a previous thread in 2011:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1735307

At that time you had discussed several other issues involving same piano.

Quote:
I'm sure that they were original Abel hammers, but to convince me to change the hammer set, he said: "that are Chinese Abel hammers


How does your tech know this? Abel makes no hammers in China.

Dave, there's many who would be willing to help but one is really getting very perplexed by all of this.

Please help us a little along to be better informed hopefully to be able to help you more effectively in this case...

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (05/05/12 10:59 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1892153 - 05/06/12 10:18 AM Re: Brodmann 212 original hammer heads size [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Believe me, a different person would sell this piano. I'm honestly tired.

No warranty support at all, no reasonably in-time interventions, nothing, and (that's worse) broken promises both the dealer and the factory.

So I had to simplify (if I want to survive) : from the factory I just need a new keyboard (because this one was sawn for a "different piano" and it has splinters and sawdust inside: this is not a brodmann keyboard)

and a new hammer set (that I'll provide by myself).

I think that is reasonable, but nothing happens. They say "we ordered your keyboard", but after months still nothing.


Edited by Davehammerklavier (05/06/12 10:19 AM)

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#1892248 - 05/06/12 01:18 PM Re: Brodmann 212 original hammer heads size [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Dave:

Would you be so kind and publish the serial number of your piano?

thanks,

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (05/06/12 03:39 PM)
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#1892361 - 05/06/12 04:23 PM Re: Brodmann 212 original hammer heads size [Re: Norbert]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
It is 1080

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#1892419 - 05/06/12 06:05 PM Re: Brodmann 212 original hammer heads size [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
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Dave:

Apparently there is direct communications between you and Brodmann.

Would it be perhaps worth to wait things out?

Norbert
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#1892430 - 05/06/12 06:14 PM Re: Brodmann 212 original hammer heads size [Re: Norbert]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Yes, I thought the same thing... for almost a year.

I hope I'm wrong, I hope it every second of the day, but the dealer started with the same behavior in July 2011: "What a shame! but don't worry: I have already ordered not only a new keyboard for you, but also the whole action/hammers block, because it is evident that something has gone wrong in that piano."

But nothing happened for months and months of quiet, silent waiting.

Is the same thing going on now? "take-time" until I get tired?

I'm waiting, yes. It's the only thing I have done in 10 months without having a correct piano that I should buy as brand new.
Is that the reason why it has cost 9.000 euro in front of the 24000 euro of the price list?


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#1892439 - 05/06/12 06:23 PM Re: Brodmann 212 original hammer heads size [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Posts: 88
I'm sorry, I know that they are surely busy, but I'm not the only one who had problems with that brand bought in my country (forums also testify that).
However the factory seems to pass over at all.

In U.S.A. they are considered very good instruments, here it is quite different (Perhaps there is a reason)

Some owners in my country just sold their piano with disappointment, I otherwise spent a lot of money and I'm already waiting for the most important (and tampered) part: the keyboard.

Perhaps I'm just stupid: I thought that they were very polite people (even if they have choosen the ill-mannered, most dangerous and swindler seller in my country) and I hoped that placing myself in a reasonable way would helped me, but no one there seems to want to help me really.

Do I have to phone again the official distributor now?
He could reach me in front of my home armed with a gun and with his "guys" at any time of day or night. He has done it with other disappointed customers, I hear that it's quite normal with him.

Is it my turn now?

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#1892661 - 05/07/12 02:18 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Dara Online   blank
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1031
Loc: west coast island, canada
Hello Dave,
It's very unfortunate that you've had to experience this ongoing dilemma with your piano. I remember your other posting here on PW last summer with this issue.
It is often difficult for readers here to discern the complete picture, let alone understand from a first hand perspective.
There isn't a large European presence on this forum, which may or may not have been of further help in resolving your piano situation and issues. I believe you are sincere in speaking about various problems that have arisen. Obviously it means enough to you, to write in to an international forum even though it's predominately USA based.

I don't ever remember Brodmann Piano Co. directly making an introduction, comment or response here on PW in regards to their pianos. Might have been a nice gesture and is still welcome.

Don't companies know in this day and age that information travels very quickly. Reputation is more fragile for a new company such as Brodmann than many older, established ones.
You haven't presented your dealer in a very good light - it's not easy to discern from a distance, but doesn't sound very harmonious.

Ultimately you want your Brodmann 212 in top shape, and it's a major drag, I imagine, that you've had this experience with what you thought was a new piano.

If I was part of the Brodmann company and management, (and Austria being next door to Italy) I'd have an approved company technician fully assess the situation, potentially provide you with a replacement piano, and make sure the representative/dealer of my products was representing a high quality level of service and commitment .... which hopefully reflects the company selling the original product.

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#1892807 - 05/07/12 09:55 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Yes, the problem is just that: no one says it's not true, no one says it's false, but no one takes a stand or gets something to help. But, I understand this... (I'm going to be a psychologist).

That's why I said "I'll pay everything You want", to prevent what is unfortunately going on now.

Anyway, it's all very "italian"... no protection to the customers.

Initially the factory said "You have a problem with the dealer" and all finished with this sentence.

The dealer said after that episode with loud, un-polite and vulgar tone (words like "f..k you, f..k that, you've broken my b...s, they are not good pianos...) that he has problems with the factory now and after my report (and pictures) they are not pleased to speak with him.

But everything seems to remain the same. (neutral position)

The factory offered me a tech consulting after without a date and not in a reasonably short period of time. Ok, I also understand that: the dealer should do this kind of service normally (but it's famous: he doesn't).

(There are some very honest dealers here: please, try to choose a good one)

After that events (occured in the following months of quiet and silent waiting) I provided to the problems by myself with more than one (well respected) technician.

I haven't explained yet that much of the money I've spent it has been used to "re-make up" the action.

No "one-day" intervention could do this and, I mean, only a fool could invent this kind of (costly) problems just for fun.

(I can provide all the repair process receipts with the problems that have been emerged: I called Steinway & Sons techncians, I'm not telling jokes. They also said "communicate that shame to Europiano foundation" but I'm not that kind of person.
I just wanted a keyboard for my poor piano)

So, now I have a beautiful action, a new (right) hammer head set is coming soon, and just remains the need of a right keyboard that is the only part of my piano that I cannot get by myself.

When I asked it to the factory they said "yes, it's possible", but I'm going to believe that it is quite difficult that a keyboard needs so many months of waiting. Or not?

You see, I'm only a worried student, specially because I've heard only words (silently) for 11 whole months.

I just feel myself cheated.


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#1892862 - 05/07/12 11:32 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
joe80 Offline
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Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1194
What I don't understand in all of this is that you have bought a new piano, which needs it's entire action and keyboard replaced after a very short time -

surely that's serious enough for them to either refund you the money you paid for the piano and take the piano back, or replace the piano with a new one? A new action and keyboard is a costly repair for anyone!

I hope you get this sorted out soon, Tante Auguri con tuo pianoforte.

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#1892865 - 05/07/12 11:36 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Very kind Joe!

Yes, I've missed to say that the first dealer reaction was: "it's a shame: excuse me, we replace the whole instrument. I've already ordered one for you."

It has been the start of the whole "adventure" and I naively believed him.

When he undestood (after months of waiting) that I understood that the situation was "un-clear", he said that he was going to replace the action-keyboard-hammers block.

In the same way, when he understood that "I have understood", he started with the threads to my dad.

That's all...

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#1892887 - 05/07/12 12:11 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
joe80 Offline
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Posts: 1194
Which part of Italy are you in, Dave?

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#1892888 - 05/07/12 12:11 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
joe80 Offline
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I have a Brodmann 187 and it has been OK. Not perfect, but OK.

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#1892889 - 05/07/12 12:13 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8535
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
In the same way, when he understood that "I have understood", he started with the threads to my dad.

I'm afraid I don't understand this statement, Dave. How old are you (if you don't mind me asking)? Are you a teenager or minor so that the dealer would "started with the threads to my dad".

Just curious.

Rick
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#1892917 - 05/07/12 01:03 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Rickster]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
No, as above, I'm at university, so I'm not a teenager.

My dad just called the dealer because he no longer responded to my telephone number.

It's just folly.

I do not speak anymore about it. I see that is vain and I run the risk of being taken for a fool.

If you cancel this forum, I would be very grateful.

Thank You for your time. Bye

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#1892960 - 05/07/12 02:07 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8535
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
No, as above, I'm at university, so I'm not a teenager.

My dad just called the dealer because he no longer responded to my telephone number.

It's just folly.

I do not speak anymore about it. I see that is vain and I run the risk of being taken for a fool.

If you cancel this forum, I would be very grateful.

Thank You for your time. Bye


Dave, I don’t think anyone here remotely thinks you are a fool or foolish. And, there is nothing wrong with being young and having your dad in on the process. I have two sons, ages 34 and 32 and I still go to bat for them if need be. smile

As far as this thread being folly or in vane, I don’t view it as such myself, but I do think that only the dealer or manufacturer are in a position to solve the issues and problems with your piano.

Norbert has shown an interest in your situation and has offered helpful information in an effort to resolve the problems. According to him, the manufacturer is already aware of your situation and a dialog of communication is in motion.

I do wish for you the best possible outcome regarding your piano.

Rick
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#1892968 - 05/07/12 02:21 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Posts: 88
I'm sorry. I'm honestly grateful to you, to Norbert, Dara and Mr.Kraus.

I'm just dismayed that a polite trade mark put physically their customers in danger.

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#1892991 - 05/07/12 03:10 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
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Registered: 07/03/01
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Loc: Surrey, B.C.
From everything I heared about "Italian dealers" I am starting to believe it's to a large extent an "Italian dealer issue"....

Yours is not the only one, often involving a number of different makes. Anyone here remembering the Seiler piano few years back? frown

This is no excuse not to be looked after but I'm honest when saying I still haven't understood your situation.

In North America/Canada I am in contact with many other dealers and nobody has ever had a situation any like yours.

In fact there have been very few if any problems in much tougher climates than Italy and those have been of a very minor nature, virtually same as all other makes have from time to time.

So your case is truly intriguing, one would like to see it through.

Yours is so exceptional that I have never have heard anything like this - regardless of make!

Getting quite curious what exactly is going on here...

Hang tough, we're here for you!

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (05/07/12 03:18 PM)
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#1892998 - 05/07/12 03:25 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I just say that the truly intriguing fact is that the factory still have that kind of distributor.

If you would be in my country, you could spend afternoons reading the disappointments and the "adventures" happened in that store on forums.

My case is normal.

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#1893016 - 05/07/12 04:00 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
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Registered: 07/03/01
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Loc: Surrey, B.C.
The problem is obviously a "store" - not a "distributor"

Brodmann distributes its pianos directly.

P.S. I heard about your case once before, you're right, the "store" was mentioned in that connection...

Norbert
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#1893017 - 05/07/12 04:04 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
As far as I know, the "direct distribution" passes rightly through him.

He is the direct distribution (here).

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#1893044 - 05/07/12 04:52 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
joe80 Offline
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Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1194
In the U.K Brodmann go through Chris Venables, a reputable dealer with an excellent and proven track record. The pianos are prepared to the highest level, and I think that if one arrived at his dealership in that condition it would be sent back to the factory before it got anywhere near the shop floor.

This experience you have had is deplorable.

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#1893058 - 05/07/12 05:18 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
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No warranty support, no preparation (just to mention on thing, the key lateral movement was of 1,5mm about) and even not a simple cover on the piano during the delivery.

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#1893155 - 05/07/12 08:49 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
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Dave:

What made you buy this piano?

Norbert
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#1893416 - 05/08/12 09:39 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
1) Beautiful sound and quality built (in the store)
2) Brand new at 1/3 of the price list
3) 5 years warranty
4) The distributor underlined that it was a "Viennese" version of the Chinese one.

But when delivered, all problems in few days.
He also said: "technicians will work for two days on your piano before the delivery". (Why? They have tampered it?)

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#1893486 - 05/08/12 12:14 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
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Registered: 07/03/01
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Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Dave:

We once had 2 "Viennese" 187 grands and they were absolutely beautiful. They did have slightly different hammers [Renner] than the regular series which has Abel.

The owners for both these pianos have been extremely happy with their choice, one being a well known teacher giving piano a great testimonial.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1821759/1/Brodma

Very sorry to hear your experience has been somewhat different, as promised will help you see this one through.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (05/08/12 12:19 PM)
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#1893487 - 05/08/12 12:15 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
RAY930 Offline
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Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Loc: Europe
I have only seen good pianos and service from Brodmann, either direcly or thru forums, your is a quite strange situation. I checked their web site and only shows a dealer for Italy: http://www.brodmann-pianos.at/index.php?id=373&L=3%20[0%2C0%2C17398] is that the one?

also have you tried to contact Colin Taylor who is top responsable for technical aspects?

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#1893502 - 05/08/12 12:50 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: RAY930]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: RAY930
I have only seen good pianos and service from Brodmann, either direcly or thru forums, your is a quite strange situation. I checked their web site and only shows a dealer for Italy: http://www.brodmann-pianos.at/index.php?id=373&L=3%20[0%2C0%2C17398] is that the one?

also have you tried to contact Colin Taylor who is top responsable for technical aspects?


Yes, a lot of promises, but unfortunately nothing seems to happen or change.

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#1893505 - 05/08/12 12:52 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Norbert]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Dave:

We once had 2 "Viennese" 187 grands and they were absolutely beautiful. They did have slightly different hammers [Renner] than the regular series which has Abel.

The owners for both these pianos have been extremely happy with their choice, one being a well known teacher giving piano a great testimonial.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1821759/1/Brodma

Very sorry to hear your experience has been somewhat different, as promised will help you see this one through.

Norbert

Thank You Mr.Norbert, very kind.

I choosed my piano because was totally different from the same brand grands (perhaps because it is a "prototype" and virtually identical to the viennese version except for the marks).

I'm quite sure that it could need that renner hammers... but even at Renner factory nobody knows anything about the brand.

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#1893541 - 05/08/12 01:58 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Norbert]
Seeker Offline
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Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 360
Loc: Rockville, MD
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Dave:

We once had 2 "Viennese" 187 grands and they were absolutely beautiful. They did have slightly different hammers [Renner] than the regular series which has Abel.===SNIP===

Norbert - can you be more specific about the difference in the hammers? Shape? Weight? Size? Impregnated? Underfelt? and as important, prep voicing and any follow-up voicing you (or your technician(s)) have done since then.

In my experience, I have found hammer head shape (relatively round and pear shaped at one extreme) to pointed (Renner Blue Points come to mind), **does** make a difference in the quality of the tone produced where "quality" is not an indication of better or worse, but more related to "color", "intensity", etc.
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#1893574 - 05/08/12 03:09 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
The famous hammer heads brand said me these words in the morning (I delete the brand here for the respect of the privacy):

"Thank you for consulting us in this matter.

Unfortunately we don’t know the manufacturer of the B. grand pianos because this is a product produced in far east and manufactured from a company who uses the brand “B.”.

Therefore we have to know the name of the manufacturer.

Best regards"

So they seem to be not a direct customer of both the well-known hammers brands (the second one answered me the same just in different words).


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#1893624 - 05/08/12 04:57 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
Quote:
Therefore we have to know the name of the manufacturer.


Quote:
So they seem to be not a direct customer of both the well-known hammers brands (the second one answered me the same just in different words).


Dave,

You could try Wilh. Steinberg, Eisenberg Germany as the manufacturer, because of:

Brodmann Artist Series

see post "1692359:

Quote:
Bearing in mind the above, the first batch of the Artist Series had the case parts and frame assembled in their Chinese factory, the stringing, action, keyboard, dampers are fitted in the Wilhm Steinberg factory in Eisenberg, Germany. For uniformity, all toning is done by just one dedicated technician. (Ex Steinway tech). Hammers are either Renner or Abel, strings Roslau, soundboard Bolduc, pinblock 5 ply maple by Bolduc, action Renner, keys Kluge and damper felt La roux. The designs of the 187, 212 and 228 are the same as the PE series, which look very like S-way A, B and C models (!) the concert 275, Brodmann say, has similarities to S-way, Yamaha and Kawai concert models. (!). Brodmann are planning an upright 132 model too. Frame colour is gold rather than light copper and there is more detail around the frame holes than on the PE series. Inside of rim is birds eye maple. Main rim is of 3mm maple laminations.


schwammerl.

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#1893631 - 05/08/12 05:14 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
It's interesting...

Compare http://www.wilh-steinberg.com/eng/wst-grandsp-212.html

with http://www.brodmann-pianos.at/grand_piano_2120.html?&L=6

Or the same pictures are very similar or the pianos are so...

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#1893676 - 05/08/12 06:02 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2339
Loc: Lowell MA
Pattie and I just spent a week at Steinberg ... Very interesting and well done. Kevin, head of manufacturing is a sharp guy.

Steve Pearson from Chicago is now head of all grand piano production ...

It might do to get some facts here ...

What is the question again ??
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#1893680 - 05/08/12 06:10 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
joe80 Offline
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Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1194
I think that Steinberg and Brodmann have some of the same people in management. It's fairly well known in the industry that Wilh. Steinberg were making some of the Brodmann uprights at one time - quite expensive pianos but good quality.

The Steinberg 212 is probably the same piano as the Brodmann 212, in the same way that the May Berlin is the same as the Brodmann. The name on the fallboard matters less than the quality of the instrument and the follow up service you get from the dealer.

It's no secret that there is a factory in china producing pianos with several different names on the same instrument.

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#1893681 - 05/08/12 06:10 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
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Registered: 07/03/01
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Loc: Surrey, B.C.
I am vigorously pursuing to get to the bottom of things here.
The mystery will be solved and from first accounts received, is starting to unravel.

Dave's piano is definitely *not* a Steinberg made model.
This would be impossible considering the piano was sold even below the price of a 6'3 grand.

There seems to be more to the story with all fingers pointing increasingly to the dealer.

If he is indeed a *dealer* any longer....

Norbert frown
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#1893949 - 05/09/12 04:42 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
The situation is typically contradictory: improper sales policies, but some big "fictive" stores on the territory. All speak ill about them, but they are still there.

At any rate, my piano (prototype or not) is genuine brand new that has just suffered of their true mad "tampering" dealing policies or a factory default/negligence. (The CEO was very surprised when I told him the price, he said: "It's impossibile, we have sent those pianos just few days ago from the factory!")

After all, I just hope that someone (at the factory) will be so kind to help me providing the parts I need.
I don't want to become someone like a strange kind of "martyr" while everyone is shocked, but no one gets something.
I'm just a student who should study piano but instead has lost a year of life on this instrument. (I was going to get sick)

I don't want to create problems... I just would like to receive my (beloved) replacement keyboard that my technicians will set on my responsibility.

The factory will get no longer my news if not for the Christmas greetings...

(Another "accident" that I remember, when the first (Steinway) technician started to work at the action, he found a central key (the C sharp) that was without its plumbs completely. Have they used them into an another piano...?)

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#1893990 - 05/09/12 08:04 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8535
Loc: Georgia, USA
Dave, I certainly hope you get the issues with your piano resolved satisfactorily.

Where I’m from we have a saying… “too many cooks in the kitchen”. It sounds a little like this may be part of the problem in your situation.

Years ago, I got into training horses. I went from knowing nothing about horses to having a horse in my pasture that needed training. I went to the library (no internet back then) and checked out all the books I could find on training horses. I talked to all the local horse trainers who would talk to me and asked them questions. One thing I noticed was that if I asked ten different horse trainers the same question, I usually got ten different answers. I’ve found this same scenario to be true with piano technicians, except the questions pertain to pianos instead of horses. smile

Maybe you need to fine the best of the best technician and stick with them through thick and thin... (if you have not already done so.)

Maybe this thread will help to yield some positive results for you in the long run…

Rick
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#1893997 - 05/09/12 08:15 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Rickster]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Yes, thank You.

As above I have already done this "best of the best" (my technicians were Steinway Academy registered), but there is an impassable problem: the uncorrectly sawn keyboard. It's not matter of taste or different horse trainers.

Should I get also the right keyboard by myself without any correct design reference?

Should I spend even more money (a custom made keyboard costs at least 2000 Euro in my country) for the copy of a correct keyboard that I don't have? (My family have spent not less than 2300 euro up to know to "buffer" the problems)

Should I call an expensive technician (again) to do a work of which is just impossible to predict the results?

No, You see, it is folly.

Is it so pretentious to ask a factory to provide a keyboard that I'll pay in all the expences even in the warranty period? Other brands provide keyboards without problems and we (My technicians and I) were sure that they would provide it. But they wouldn't.

It's a year that we are stop here and the situation is made even more paradoxical by the factory's: "yes, new keyboard for you".

The dealer and the 'factory' are different persons, but they seem to be the same.

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#1894132 - 05/09/12 12:26 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
o.k here's some things I found out in your case:

The dealer is no longer a dealer.
There were large debts owed to Brodmann company that were never paid. In fact when someone from factory came by to collect these debts, he was was physically threatened with a blunt weapon.

The piano was sold to you for an unrealistically low price. The price was actually near or below wholesale.
This indicates the dealer wanted to collect some cash and had no intention to pay for the piano which was sold "on consignment"

Brodmann at this point can hardly be held responsible.
The dealer is who he is. You have been victimized by this guy - not the company.

There is the possibility the dealer 'switched' some parts or components on the piano which makes the case even more outrageous. I have no proof of this but the description of your piano defies the experience with same instrument by every dealer aware of your case.

I don't know how the laws are in Italy if there's any.
It's an outrageous case, unimaginable in this part of the world. Strong arming is not what's happening here.

You have my complete sympathy and the one of every reader here. My advice at this point would be this:

State very clearly what the piano exactly does or does *not* do for you. I wouldn't right now worry about the 'size of hammers' or stuff like this.

Ask yourself in which way does the keyboard and all the other things interfere with normal playing and enjoyment of the instrument?

Than concentrate on those.

Be as precise as possible, you will get more advice after that.

You chose the piano when it was still playing to your liking. In my belief and from my experience this is still an attainable goal.

Here to help.

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1894144 - 05/09/12 12:40 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Norbert]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Norbert


Brodmann at this point can hardly be held responsible.
The dealer is who he is. You have been victimized by this guy - not the company.




Yes, but wouldn't it be nice for Brodmann to step up to the plate and get the OP the parts for his piano at wholesale cost, or better yet free? It appears that Brodmann is doing very little insofar as trying to make him happy.

Individual expense vs company write-off -- there's a big difference.

As for the dealer, let's hope he's out of business by now.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1894163 - 05/09/12 01:09 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Yes, but wouldn't it be nice for Brodmann to step up to the plate and get the OP the parts for his piano at wholesale cost, or better yet free? It appears that Brodmann is doing very little insofar as trying to make him happy.


Are you sure of this?

If a supplier doesn't get paid for merchandise, something that would quickly void the dealership agreement in any other industry, he's then later held responsible for the "warranty" of the merchandise that was basically stolen from him?

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (05/09/12 01:10 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1894175 - 05/09/12 01:23 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Norbert]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Yes, but wouldn't it be nice for Brodmann to step up to the plate and get the OP the parts for his piano at wholesale cost, or better yet free? It appears that Brodmann is doing very little insofar as trying to make him happy.


Are you sure of this?

If a supplier doesn't get paid for merchandise, something that would quickly void the dealership agreement in any other industry, he's then later held responsible for the "warranty" of the merchandise that was basically stolen from him?

Norbert


Am I sure of what? A write off is a write off. It's an unfortunate case, but it appears that Brodmann needed to be more careful of who was handling their piano sales.
In the long run though, an individual is stuck with an unplayable instrument, and Brodmann appears to be the only one that is able to rectify the situation.
If you weren't a Brodmann dealer, what would you suggest Brodmann do? Wouldn't you think that the company has deeper pockets than a university student?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1894183 - 05/09/12 01:29 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Norbert]
ProdigalPianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 1049
Loc: Phoenix Metro, AZ
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Yes, but wouldn't it be nice for Brodmann to step up to the plate and get the OP the parts for his piano at wholesale cost, or better yet free? It appears that Brodmann is doing very little insofar as trying to make him happy.


Are you sure of this?

If a supplier doesn't get paid for merchandise, something that would quickly void the dealership agreement in any other industry, he's then later held responsible for the "warranty" of the merchandise that was basically stolen from him?

Norbert


We've had somewhat similar discussions about manufacturer/dealer responsibility before.

The manufacturer *chose* to enter into a business relationship with the dealer, and allowed him to (at least somewhat) represent their line of pianos (if you want to quibble about whether he was an authorized dealer or not...at the bare minimum they shipped him the piano. He did not buy it from another party. They gave him, apparently, credit.)

The consumer purchased a new piano from a dealer that Brodmann chose to work with. It's not like the dealer *stole* the piano off a truck without Brodmann's knowledge and then sold it.

There is no indication whatsoever, so far, that the consumer has done anything to warrant their having to suffer for the wrongdoing of the dealer. Given that Brodmann had the opportunity to vet this dealer (or, *should* have done), IMO it is exceptionally shortsighted of them to not suck it up and make it right for this consumer. Business people take on risk for profit. The manufacturer took the risk of giving the piano to the dealer on consignment. And now the consumer is getting the short end of the stick because Brodmann doesn't want to send them a new action?

Knowledge is power, and consumer knowledge is more powerful now than at any other time in history. A piano is a significant expense for the average family and I, personally, would not feel comfortable buying a new piano from a manufacturer who has not shown that they will stand behind their dealer network and their new pianos.
_________________________
Adult Amateur Pianist

My only domestic quality is that I live in a house.

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#1894211 - 05/09/12 02:30 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2308
Loc: SoCal
Good work, Norbert. This is a nightmare scenario.
_________________________
Gary

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#1894234 - 05/09/12 03:08 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2339
Loc: Lowell MA
It is interesting that any manufacturer would be in the position of warranting something that was stolen from them.

There are circumstances here in the US that could potentially put that consumer in the position of receiving stolen goods .. and have to return the goods regardless of having payed someone for it.

I am certainly not any authority on the law here in the US or anywhere .. Perhaps there is an attorney that would comment?
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
facebook.com/E. J. Buck & Sons Performances

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#1894251 - 05/09/12 03:52 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
To me, this is all about consumer satisfaction.

By same token, the standards for this are very different in different parts of the world.

There also may be different dealer-arrangements including warranty coverage in different countries.
For example,in Germany it's mostly 5 years....

We still don't know all facts of the case and it certainly is not Dave's fault to be confused and/or frustrated by all of this.

Fact is also that have been several techs at work by now and in North America we would immediately ask if they have been "authorized" by dealer or manufacturer including what exact work they had been doing.

We also have no statements by either dealer or manufacturer, but I am personally in contact with Brodmann about this.

Sometimes it is difficult for a manufacturer to directly get involved online, so I am trying my best to help shed some light on the situation and help customer at same time. If the consensus is that Brodmann is directly owing or responsible for any thing here, here let it come out and be known.

In the meantime there are a lot of facts needing to be established. This is also a great opportunity for the dealer to state his case. A greatly missed opportunity so far.

Here's some things one can assume as pretty "safe" facts::

1] if I'd swing an iron bar at someone coming from me trying to collect money it'll be quite safe to assume the relationship is over. There simply ain't no "business as usual" after. It's a bit unrealistic to assume otherwise.

At same time I doubt that Brodmann would have chosen such company knowing in advance their life might be in danger collecting debts. After all, this is Italy... cry

2] It may be a company's "fault" to pick the wrong dealer but this does not automatically imply liability later on.
Especially in case of outright theft.

Question is who would one choose in any foreign country if there's not much to rely upon from previous contacts.

Let's not forget there are many cases where dealers have closed doors right here at home before leaving scores of customers behind....

3]Perhaps someone else does but I still do not fully understand exactly what the problem with this piano is. Only when a qualified technician can give the details in perhaps better to understand technical terminology, can such case be properly assessed. Especially long distance....

From my understanding Brodmann has been willing to help all along but there seems to be some problems with communication and especially what exactly the problem seems to be.

Just because a third party tech says this or that is wrong or a problem - it doesn't necessarily mean it "is".
[had one sore case like this of my own recently... cry]

One needs to know more exactly and independently so what is or is "not" working properly and what exactly the reason for this is.

Knowing the 212 grand intimately, a piano often singled out for praise, should have given us dealers some insight what could have possibly happened here.

In talking to several,it has *not*.

Perhaps a tech with Italian language skills could be appointed or found to bring this case to a happy conclusion.

After all we need to bring some kind of back dolce vita back to our friend!

After all, this is Italy...

Norbert thumb



Edited by Norbert (05/09/12 04:23 PM)
_________________________
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1894255 - 05/09/12 03:57 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8535
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
It is interesting that any manufacturer would be in the position of warranting something that was stolen from them.

There are circumstances here in the US that could potentially put that consumer in the position of receiving stolen goods .. and have to return the goods regardless of having payed someone for it.

I am certainly not any authority on the law here in the US or anywhere .. Perhaps there is an attorney that would comment?

Larry, I think that conclusion is a little drastic, though I have heard of things like that happening with consumers who purchased new or used vehicles from unscrupulous car dealers; usually, the vehicles were repossessed by the manufacturer, bank or lean holder and any money paid by the buyer was lost; it would be the buyer's responsibility to go after the seller for fraud.

I must say I’ve never heard of anything like that happening with a piano purchase. I suppose anything is possible.

The way I see it, Dave and his family purchased the piano in good faith, from whom they assumed was an authorized dealer… they had no idea or any way of knowing what was going on behind the scenes.

I suppose this is why organizations like the BBB, Governors office of Consumer Affairs (or Piano World smile ) are a good thing for consumer protection. (In the US at least)

Rick



Edited by Rickster (05/09/12 03:59 PM)
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1894273 - 05/09/12 04:29 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Rickster]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2339
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
It is interesting that any manufacturer would be in the position of warranting something that was stolen from them.

There are circumstances here in the US that could potentially put that consumer in the position of receiving stolen goods .. and have to return the goods regardless of having payed someone for it.

I am certainly not any authority on the law here in the US or anywhere .. Perhaps there is an attorney that would comment?

Larry, I think that conclusion is a little drastic, though I have heard of things like that happening with consumers who purchased new or used vehicles from unscrupulous car dealers; usually, the vehicles were repossessed by the manufacturer, bank or lean holder and any money paid by the buyer was lost; it would be the buyer's responsibility to go after the seller for fraud.

I must say I’ve never heard of anything like that happening with a piano purchase. I suppose anything is possible.

The way I see it, Dave and his family purchased the piano in good faith, from whom they assumed was an authorized dealer… they had no idea or any way of knowing what was going on behind the scenes.

I suppose this is why organizations like the BBB, Governors office of Consumer Affairs (or Piano World smile ) are a good thing for consumer protection. (In the US at least)

Rick



Rick, I agree, my point was drastic. It was intended to be Devils advocate to the opinion that Broadman is directly responsible already.

There is a lot to learn before assigning responsibility.

As Norbert has also pointed out.

Pictures of the piano and several of the action from all angles would be fun to see ....???
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
facebook.com/E. J. Buck & Sons Performances

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#1894284 - 05/09/12 04:51 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Norbert]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4190
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Norbert

Perhaps a tech with Italian language skills could be appointed or found to bring this case to a happy conclusion.



Dave,

I have sent an email to a technician I know in Italy. I have asked him to read over this thread and speak to you in your own language and assist if he is able.

I believe he is in the Palermo region as he does work at the University of Palermo.

As Larry Buck has mentioned a good sold by a dealer who refuses to pay the supplier is considered a stolen good, under common law in every jurisdiction.

The difference would be how goods stolen in this manner are treated by the Italian law and court system.

Also the suggestion by Larry for photos is a good one.

Dave you could go a long way to helping yourself here by taking a series of photos of the complaints you have of the instrument and post them on this forum.

While most technicians such as myself and Larry would be un-able to assist with corrections from a distance, this would give all members and non-members of the forum reading this thread a better idea of what the complaints are, or are not, along with possible remedies.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1894288 - 05/09/12 04:57 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
there are two possibilities only:

the first: I haven't explained the facts clearly yet (but honestly I doubt it)

the second: everyone (with the power to get something) is trying not to get to a solution (and it is strange, because I'm asking a thing made of cheap spruce).

- the dealer of this case is already the distributor of the brand

- The factory says to choose its dealers carefully: I just trust them and bought my piano.

-when I asked for explanations about the strangely low price, they said me "It's a new brand: launch price". The explanation seemed credible and I bought my piano.

- I've spent after over 2300 euro to buffering the problems of my piano (because problems were everywhere) without the help of any warranty support and without asking for money

- when I was sad because they were too consistent problems, I tried (only after) to call the factory as the "last resort" and looking just for the keyboard.

- The factory didn't refused my requests (they could) and after seeing the pictures, was persuaded by the truth of my problems.


I repeat: the keyboard is unproperly sawn and the wood of the keys is not properly squared and it works "crooked", in particular in the bass section where the keys are more angled. I'm not a technician, but (I hope) not an uneducated person. That's clear to me.

See You soon, goodbye.


(just for the record: when the dealer delivered the piano, he has fled like a hare leaving without the opportunity of try and control the piano)

(Stolen? He is the official distributor and other dealers in my country call him to have pianos of this brand for their stores! Sorry, I'm nobody's fool).

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#1894296 - 05/09/12 05:09 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Questions over questions.

Could all of this be a simple regulation problem?

It's time to get pictures.....

Norbert cool
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1894298 - 05/09/12 05:13 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
P.S. I undestand now that I have to wait, to put money apart (to my family are a lot of money) and buy a keyboard by myself.

You say that U.S.A. has different policies, but I see that it is all the same: nobody helps nobody losing and wasting his and our time (and money).

In Italy we say: "Tutto il mondo è paese" (the world is everywhere the same) and it seems so.


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#1894300 - 05/09/12 05:16 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
- I've send pictures on this forum one year ago and nothing happened

- As a technician you CLEARLY know that you cannot see this kind of problems by a picture

- Again words? It's allright: the words are going to stop immediately.

I don't need to be mystified in this overbearing way by this forum anymore.

My family and I suffered a lot, we are not telling jokes.

This is too much disrespectful.

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#1894303 - 05/09/12 05:25 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
You are all very inaccurate also:

if a person has spent over 2300 euro (tax expenses provable) in technician support, do you think that you would see a wreck through a (digital) picture?

Please: do not make yourself ridiculous.

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#1894304 - 05/09/12 05:27 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2339
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
- I've send pictures on this forum one year ago and nothing happened

- As a technician you CLEARLY know that you cannot see this kind of problems by a picture

- Again words? It's allright: the words are going to stop immediately.

I don't need to be mystified in this overbearing way by this forum anymore.

My family and I suffered a lot, we are not telling jokes.

This is too much disrespectful.
\

Still, perhaps you could re post the pictures ....
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
facebook.com/E. J. Buck & Sons Performances

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#1894305 - 05/09/12 05:28 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Do you read what I write? I think not.

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#1894308 - 05/09/12 05:35 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8535
Loc: Georgia, USA
Hi Dave,

I went back and read your other thread here about your problems with your piano. I did not see any pictures in that thread, unless I overlooked them.

Also, several of our dealer members here were very helpful to you in that thread, as they have tried to be in this one... If nothing tangible has been done, it is not because many here on this forum have not tried to help as best they could.

And, we do sympathize with your situation...

Not sure what else to say, other than I wish for you the best outcome possible.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1894311 - 05/09/12 05:46 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I don't care.

I just thank Seeker that helped me with very polite private messages on this forum.

He believed me and he had some pictures of my piano without any problems.

I just cannot make myself put on a trial this way. The "murderer" it's not me.

Best regards.

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#1894364 - 05/09/12 07:31 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Dave:

I and many others here believe you too.

The only way to be of more effective help is to get a pictural view of what is actually happening.

I recently used some pictures about a piano myself and was very grateful for the help I received.

There's many helpful & knowledgeable people here: pictures speak volumes, even if they don't appear to you.

I tried to find some of yours in the archives but couldn't find them.

Would you be kind enough to publish [or pm] them again?

Many thanks,

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (05/09/12 07:32 PM)
_________________________
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1894368 - 05/09/12 07:40 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier

Is it so pretentious to ask a factory to provide a keyboard that I'll pay in all the expences even in the warranty period? Other brands provide keyboards without problems and we (My technicians and I) were sure that they would provide it. But they wouldn't.

It's clear that there is a problem here. He's asking for a keyboard direct from the factory, and is willing to pay for it, but Brodmann is unable to supply him with one. Why is that? Why is it taking them a year to provide something they should have in stock, or is it that the 212 that he bought a prototype that now has a different action?

If it is NOT the same action that they currently use, then I can see the delay and/or reluctance to providing him one. But I also think it is time now for Brodmann personal to at least clarify what their position is, rather than have Dave think that something more sinister (aside from the dealer) is happening. I'm sure Brodmann would like a happy ending to this too, wouldn't they?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1894404 - 05/09/12 09:00 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4190
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
- The factory didn't refused my requests (they could) and after seeing the pictures, was persuaded by the truth of my problems.

I repeat: the keyboard is improperly sawn and the wood of the keys is not properly squared and it works "crooked", in particular in the bass section where the keys are more angled. I'm not a technician, but (I hope) not an uneducated person. That's clear to me.


I don’t believe anyone is putting the OP on trial here, some are asking for further information by way of photos.

Just so I understand this completely;

Dave has shown photos to the factory.

Apparently someone by the name of Mr. Kraus has emailed in private and has been offered photos to view.

Surely an incorrectly sawn keyboard can be shown here, along with incorrectly squared off key set; after all, it was shown to others. Easy to show these things by way of photos, along with the messed up hammer set.

But when asked to show photos of the specific problem, or multiple problems here in this thread suddenly offense is taken and now there is to be no more discussion according to the OP.

How any of this becomes offensive or makes the OP, in his characterization, a murderer, is beyond me.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
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http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1894484 - 05/09/12 11:44 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

It's clear that there is a problem here. He's asking for a keyboard direct from the factory, and is willing to pay for it, but Brodmann is unable to supply him with one. Why is that? Why is it taking them a year to provide something they should have in stock, or is it that the 212 that he bought a prototype that now has a different action?

If it is NOT the same action that they currently use, then I can see the delay and/or reluctance to providing him one. But I also think it is time now for Brodmann personal to at least clarify what their position is, rather than have Dave think that something more sinister (aside from the dealer) is happening. I'm sure Brodmann would like a happy ending to this too, wouldn't they?



Thank You, I'm very grateful for your words.

Differently from they are thinking, I'm just starting to do my interests like them because some dealers and technicians have the bad habit of passing customers for fools.

They try to protect their category, I have to do the same with mine: the customer.

It's the last time I repeat that the keyboard, the action and the hammers have been RE-WORKED by qualified technicians and there's nothing to see in a picture if not common grand piano parts: you have to ANALIZE technically with proper tools and sincerity (if You have one) and then perhaps you could find that something is totally in the wrong place.

Are you technicians, aren't You? So I know that You see what I mean.

That's why I asked something concrete to the factory: just a new keyboard with price charge and they have promised it.

I haven't requested technical support, opinions, annoyances, absurd claims even to prevent more wasting time and money.

Just a normal, common replacement keyboard. That's all.



For the rest, I don't want to RE-publish any pictures of my piano because I don't care: I was here trying to figure out if the company has made honest and sincere promises and correct suggestions or not.

The truth is that you just want to watch in my pants to protect the brands that You sell.


It is reasonable to feel that the factory has led that "senseless" policy since from the start and if the promises will be really broken, my technicians are ready to inform Europiano Foundation.



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#1894549 - 05/10/12 02:39 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1194
I think it would be nice for someone from Brodmann to at least inspect the piano. Our original poster has spent a lot of time and money trying to put this piano right and he is at the end of what he can bear with it.

We've established that the dealer was in the wrong in the first place, and the piano should be covered by the factory warranty whether or not the dealer pays the factory. The consumer bought in good faith - that is basically what a court in the U.K. would say to that. However, we're not talking about the U.K and I have no idea what the Italian courts would say about this.

The bottom line though, is, can the original poster not just pay Brodmann to come and fit a new keyboard to his piano?

Sometimes, pianos leave factories and mistakes have been made in the manufacture. Perhaps the dealer sold a different 212 to the one that Dave played in the showroom, knowing that there was a problem with it (maybe that was part of the reason for the low price). Surely then, Brodmann could just honour the request and send a technician out. Austria and Italy aren't so far apart after all! At one time, parts of Italy were in the same empire ;-)

Davehammerklavier, we are taking you seriously, it's just that many people are astounded by what happened with your piano and that is why there is an air of disbelief. Brodmann is a good make for the money and most people have had no problems.

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#1894681 - 05/10/12 10:19 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I agree. A friend of mine has no problem and he has showed me his piano parts: his keyboard is perfectly sawn and working.

BUT, I just want a shipped keyboard because if I have to wait the factory technician (believe me, I tried also this way), I'll have to wait another year (with the unfortunate possibility that he could say "good keyboard"...!)

One year has elapsed, not few days.

The insult to the injury. No, thanks.

They are just dishonest.

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#1894709 - 05/10/12 11:09 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21529
Loc: Oakland
The problem started with "soft hammers" and has progressed to "bad keyboard." That is suspicious in itself.

Even if there might be a warranty claim here, it has to be proven. There are two sides the to every story, and we have only heard one, and it is inconsistent. Sometimes these stories are cases of PEBKAC.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1894713 - 05/10/12 11:20 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: BDB]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
You are right.

But like many in this topic, you loose the fact that outside this topic (which is made of words) there are facts and Europiano members are involved (and shamed).

Think what you feel it's right. I do the same.

It started with the hammers and finished with the bad keyboard just because life is not simple, but complex.

(anyway, please: before speaking, read all the passages of a conversation trying to undestand not only the ones that are more comfortable to you, but all...)

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#1894716 - 05/10/12 11:25 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4190
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
For the rest, I don't want to RE-publish any pictures of my piano because I don't care:


Well, you care enough to endure and comment in 4 pages of a forum thread.

Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
I was here trying to figure out if the company has made honest and sincere promises and correct suggestions or not.


PianoWorld and its members do not set any policy for Brodman Piano Co. If there is to be a determination that the company has made honest and sincere promises those things will not be found here in these pages. Try the court system in Italy for these kinds of answers.

Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
The truth is that you just want to watch in my pants to protect the brands that You sell.


So far no posting I have read is deliberately offensive to you as this posting is to other members.

So, there are to be no photos. This is not a problem. Please have one of the several technicians you have had inspect this instrument chime in here to discuss the findings. That way the technicians on this board can fully understand the problems you are experiencing.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1894717 - 05/10/12 11:27 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I've kindly asked to delete this topic.

Read (and think) before speaking.

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#1894718 - 05/10/12 11:28 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8535
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
I agree. A friend of mine has no problem and he has showed me his piano parts: his keyboard is perfectly sawn and working.

Hi again, Dave,

I know there is a slight language barrier here, but I’m struggling with the concept of your keyboard/action being improperly sawn? In what way?

For example, the keyboard/action on my grand piano is not perfectly/symmetrically positioned either… in other words, the action rail is not positioned perfectly centered on the rectangular keyboard; it is offset just a little so that if you look down the hammer line, it is not perfectly in line with the keyboard edges. But when in the piano, the hammers are correctly aligned with the strings at the proper angle.

Are you saying the hammer strike point is not correct once the keyboard/action is in your piano?

I’m just trying to fully understand the problem. This is where the photos would be beneficial to all of us.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1894720 - 05/10/12 11:30 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4190
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
I've kindly asked to delete this topic.

Read (and think) before speaking.



You have made serious allegations about your instrument and the manufacturer of that instrument. Now as things do not go the way you have expected, it is now time to delete this topic?

Have your technician, or technicians join this thread to explain what they have found.

Is there a problem with this too?
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1894721 - 05/10/12 11:33 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Rickster]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
I agree. A friend of mine has no problem and he has showed me his piano parts: his keyboard is perfectly sawn and working.

Hi again, Dave,

I know there is a slight language barrier here, but I’m struggling with the concept of your keyboard/action being improperly sawn? In what way?

For example, the keyboard/action on my grand piano is not perfectly/symmetrically positioned either… in other words, the action rail is not positioned perfectly centered on the rectangular keyboard; it is offset just a little so that if you look down the hammer line, it is not perfectly in line with the keyboard edges. But when in the piano, the hammers are correctly aligned with the strings at the proper angle.

Are you saying the hammer strike point is not correct once the keyboard/action is in your piano?

I’m just trying to fully understand the problem. This is where the photos would be beneficial to all of us.

Rick


No, it is NOT that the problem.

Bad sawn: the keys (NOT the action) of the keyboard are unproperly sawn and they scratch one against the other inside the keyboard while you play.

It is something so absurd (but concrete and simple, I mean) that you still stop to think of tuning problems, but they don't.

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#1894723 - 05/10/12 11:34 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
I've kindly asked to delete this topic.

Read (and think) before speaking.



You have made serious allegations about your instrument and the manufacturer of that instrument. Now as things do not go the way you have expected, it is now time to delete this topic?

Have your technician, or technicians join this thread to explain what they have found.

Is there a problem with this too?


In Italy we live a real life, not a "virtual forum life" and we solve problems in the real one.

I started this topic in friendship to share experiences in good faith: you see, if I want an expertise, I call Mr. Fabbrini.

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#1894729 - 05/10/12 11:41 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4190
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
In Ialy we live a real life, not a "virtual forum life" and we solve problems in the real one.

I started this topic in friendship: if I want an expertise, I call Mr. Fabbrini.


Please contact Mr. Fabbrini and sort this out in real life then. Obviously there is no more to discuss here.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1894730 - 05/10/12 11:42 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8535
Loc: Georgia, USA
Just a thought, Dave,

Have you been keeping written records and photos of the chain of events since the piano was purchase new? If not, I think that would be a good idea.

I’m sorry you are experiencing these issues… a new piano should be a wonderful and joyous experience.

There is a lesson here for us all that the integrity and reputation of the dealer we buy from does matter, and not just the price.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1894738 - 05/10/12 11:52 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Rickster]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Just a thought, Dave,

Have you been keeping written records and photos of the chain of events since the piano was purchase new? If not, I think that would be a good idea.

I’m sorry you are experiencing these issues… a new piano should be a wonderful and joyous experience.

There is a lesson here for us all that the integrity and reputation of the dealer we buy from does matter, and not just the price.

Rick


Yes. I've started a topic on this forum one year ago. That means that I have one whole year of records, payment receips and technicians ready to "use".

But, after all, I'm starting to see that there is something strangely "heroic" in the that dealer policy: he sells un-serious brand pianos for what they are worth.

Thank You very much indeed, good bye You.

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#1894742 - 05/10/12 12:00 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2339
Loc: Lowell MA
What concerns me is that Dave is NOT willing to provide the supporting evidence here.

All requests for that supporting information are met with contention from Dave.

He is asking us to champion his cause on his say so alone.

I am unwilling to do that.
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
facebook.com/E. J. Buck & Sons Performances

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#1894745 - 05/10/12 12:05 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Dave:

I and many others have come here to effectively help you as good as they possibly can can.

This included getting in contact with a number of people also overseas who we thought could be of help.

As long as you are not willing to publish even one single picture of the action or the piano itself, we can be unfortunately of no help.

You said you had published pictures here before but I couldn't find any, not even in the archives.

This is a serious contradiction.

Your tone towards those who want to help you is becoming increasingly hostile.

Those who have jumped prematurely onto the prosecutorial band wagon have been heartily congratulated by you despite the fact that not one single piece of evidence has been submitted here. Nada.

Unless one relies only on unsubstantiated claims, second hand information, etc on our continent nobody could possibly be expected to reach a fair conclusion for you or on your behalf.

Some here are starting to ask if the piano even exists.

Wishing you the best to have the matter resolved whatever "matter" this seems to be.

Finally, please note this is not "our" case, you are not our customer and nobody here owes you anything.

Our own and customers' experience with Brodmann is positive throughout, the pianos have earned great respect on the market and many people have written nice testimonials about them here.

This is not to glorify the make or that there could never be a concern but if anyone has serious complaints he would be expected to document the case in a credible and transparent way. In cases where this has ever occurred, pictures are immediately taken and submitted.

With all due respect,you have so far failed to do so.

Please also note that not one single dealer seems to understand your problem you're talking about.At same time it is not possible that nobody else would have ever "not" experienced a similar situation. Simply by law of average.

Last not least please let me say this:

If a victim is not cooperative with the prosecution, on our continent such case is normally thrown out of court.

Sorry, but I'm out.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (05/10/12 12:53 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1894748 - 05/10/12 12:12 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21529
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
I agree. A friend of mine has no problem and he has showed me his piano parts: his keyboard is perfectly sawn and working.

Hi again, Dave,

I know there is a slight language barrier here, but I’m struggling with the concept of your keyboard/action being improperly sawn? In what way?

For example, the keyboard/action on my grand piano is not perfectly/symmetrically positioned either… in other words, the action rail is not positioned perfectly centered on the rectangular keyboard; it is offset just a little so that if you look down the hammer line, it is not perfectly in line with the keyboard edges. But when in the piano, the hammers are correctly aligned with the strings at the proper angle.

Are you saying the hammer strike point is not correct once the keyboard/action is in your piano?

I’m just trying to fully understand the problem. This is where the photos would be beneficial to all of us.

Rick


No, it is NOT that the problem.

Bad sawn: the keys (NOT the action) of the keyboard are unproperly sawn and they scratch one against the other inside the keyboard while you play.

It is something so absurd (but concrete and simple, I mean) that you still stop to think of tuning problems, but they don't.


It would take maybe an hour of a technician's time to fix this with some sandpaper or a plane, if that is the actual problem. You have spent much more time than that whining about it.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1894792 - 05/10/12 01:43 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1062
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi,

From reading this thread I understand that Dave was not asking for a technical/expert advice, in my view he/she was wanting to collect some information on that precise piano brand, in order to know if others have had similar problems and perhaps share his/her own individual experience and feelings.

No need to say that this whole story is a bit of a nightmare and, as already mentioned, any reader may get the "lesson" right, no matter the country.

All I can say to the OP, Dave, is that nobody here meant to be evil, nobody intended to defend what they are selling, nobody has ever wanted to put the blame on you or anyone else. At the opposite, I've only read of posters that have been trying to help you to sort this whole thing out.

About your actual needs I can tell you that anything in a piano can be repaired, every single part, even keys that were badly finished. You just need a good technician, Mr. Fabbrini is one and you are surely able to find many others.

Then I hope you understand how your PW friends, not last Dan, have been very generous in taking your issue at heart and getting so much involved in your story, when possibly it all was pretty turbid since the beginning.

If you don't want this thread to go on you can simply stop posting. I hope you can get your piano fixed asap and enjoy playing music again and again.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1894805 - 05/10/12 02:06 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Yes, a nightmare for my family and I.

1) I wasn't looking for help about the action or about the keyboard at all.

2) I was looking for help in the hammers selection: the factory has made a lot of modifications and confusion about that.

3) Regard the keyboard I was interested to understand in friendship if the factory could be in good faith or not about the promises they have made to me.


I have to say that to my taste You're going to seem more and more "slothful".

That's enough for me.

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#1894813 - 05/10/12 02:18 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4190
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

For PW members;

The same topic on an Italian piano forum from December 23 2011.Apparently things went hostile there and the moderators had to chime in a few times.

This is a translated page so read patiently. I don’t believe any of the photos are of the piano in question.

When you go to this link a window pops up asking if you want to print the page. Just select cancel and continue.

PIANOFORTE ACUSTICO E MODERNO
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1894814 - 05/10/12 02:19 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2235
Loc: Pennsylvania
What a convoluted mess.

I would have thought that this topic might have prompted Brodmann to either step in here or contact the OP and resolve the matter to his satisfaction. It would have been nice. No matter the circumstances between them and the dealer, whether the dealer paid for the piano or not, the OP did buy it from a dealer. It's not like he bought it from the back of a van on a street corner. Thus this idea of Brodmann not being responsible because of this is clouded IMHO.

Personally I am disappointed. I have seen many cases on here when a manufacturer steps in and does what is necessary even when it is not their fault. Does this make Brodmann a bad company or irresponsible? No. They are within their rights. I'm just disappointed.

But be that as it may, it is time to give this topic a rest. When things become adversarial between a person with a problem and the people just trying to help, what can be accomplished? Only hard feelings.

Maybe I will reopen this topic later on if there is anything NEW and NOTEWORTHY that I am made aware of. Until then, TOPIC CLOSED.
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
http://www.mitatechs.org
http://www.facebook.com/MITATechs

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#1896806 - 05/14/12 04:40 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2235
Loc: Pennsylvania
As promised, I am posting additional information which has been provided by a forum member who has contacts within the company.

Brodmann has not posted in any of the topics created on Piano World or on any other forum where this matter has been discussed.Why?

Because the resolution of this problem is not their responsibility. It is not a warranty issue. They could have stepped in and stated their side of the story but they felt that to do so would possibly embarrass their customer. I can understand that and it seems to me that this is the mark of a first class outfit.

I have also removed Davehammerklavier's posting privileges. This is because of his adversarial stance he took against forum members trying to help. He started another topic where he posted pictures and maintained a "who asked you" attitude towards members participating. For now, at least, he is gone. We don't need this kind of stuff on here.
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
http://www.mitatechs.org
http://www.facebook.com/MITATechs

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