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#1893233 - 05/07/12 11:32 PM Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP
nananda Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/07/12
Posts: 3
I have a second hand 2.5 year old yamaha clp 230 for $800 by a private seller. I have a budget of $1500, but of course being a student I would love the savings for $700 if the 230 is as good. The top of the line yamaha 430 is out of my budget as it costs almost 3k here in nyc. Is the clp 230 as good as the ydp 141/161 ? I looked at the differences between the two and I could not understand them.

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#1893236 - 05/07/12 11:43 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: nananda]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9047
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
The CLP-320 was largely equivalent to the YDP-161, but featured the GH3 action.

I'm not terribly familiar with the CLP-230, however provided the instrument is in good condition, and has been looked after, $800 sounds like a pretty good deal.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1893239 - 05/07/12 11:50 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: nananda]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1674
Loc: Portugal
regarding the YDPs, the 161 has a much better keyboard than the 141, and better amp and speakers.

But the older CLP230 is technically similar to the 161 both in terms of sampled sound and GH keyboard action. I would go for the clp 230, I think, so long as it's in perfect technical condition, and reasonable cosmetic condition.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#1893524 - 05/08/12 01:24 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: nananda]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3800
Loc: North Carolina
You should know that the YDP line of pianos is marketed differently than the CLP line. The former are sold at music stores, and the price is generally fixed. The latter are only sold at piano dealers, and the price is entirely negotiable.
Originally Posted By: nananda
The top of the line yamaha 430 is out of my budget as it costs almost 3k here in nyc.
Piano dealers' asking prices are ridiculously high. So the $3000 quote for the 430 is just the dealer's wet dream. You might be able to get the 430 at around $1800-$2000 ... but you'd have to make that offer. The dealer won't make the offer. (Anyway, it's still over your budget, so the point is moot.)
Quote:
Is the clp 230 as good as the ydp 141/161 ? I looked at the differences between the two and I could not understand them.
The CLP230 and YDP161 are similar, but not identical.
The 161 lacks a few features and doesn't have a display. (Small differences.)
The 161 has a GH action, while the 230 has the slightly better GH3 action.
The YDP161 has three-level sampling. Unfortunately, the CLP230 has only one-level sampling.

On balance, everything else being equal, I'd choose the YDP161.

But all else is not equal. The YDP161 is new and runs at $1300 or so.
So the $800 price tag on the use CLP230 is attractive.
Is it in top condition? Mainly, does the keyboard show signs of wear?
If it's good, go for it. You won't find any new console as good for that price.

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#1893653 - 05/08/12 05:33 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: MacMacMac]
nholur Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/07/12
Posts: 14
I might be new to this or completely naive. But how do I ask the dealer (in this case faust and harrison who claims to be only official yamaha dealer in nyc) to reduce the price from 3K to 1.8K. If I get a brand new 430 at 1.8K, I will jump on it. I will work extra hours at school lib, not buy new clothes for 2 years laugh. I live in NY, USA btw.

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#1893721 - 05/08/12 07:24 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: nananda]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3800
Loc: North Carolina
You never ask the dealer to lower his price.
You simply make the offer.
"I am willing to buying this piano right now for $1800."
Cash (or check) in hand, ready to go.

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#1893792 - 05/08/12 09:38 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: nananda]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2702
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Mac,

I don't sell the CLP's, but I also don't see any justification for the prices you are suggesting on CLP-430. I know you compiled info from the "prices paid" thread, but there's nothing there either. I did see 440's reported around $2,700-$2,800. I also know that Clavinovas just faced large shipping hikes within the last month.

I understand your aggressive negotiation strategy as you have also shared in past threads, but I don't see this as sound advice.

To this forum in general,

Simultaneously on the piano forum, there is a thread about the Cincinnati Steinway dealer going out of business. This is the same dealer who only a few years ago set the record for the largest Steinway institutional sale on record (165 pianos). In fact, every few months I read about another longtime dealer downsizing or closing on the forum. Hardly anyone is getting fat in the piano business except for a number of online retailers.

I'm not suggesting that someone overpay for a product, but I am stating that a lot of the prices you hear or see are completely unsustainable for any brick & mortar business. That business model, where a retail dealer is asked to attractively present, stock, train staff to demonstrate a quality product so that B&H or Gigasonic (electronics generalists) can pick off the sale, is more responsible than the economic downturn for destroying quality representation of these products. People here routinely make fun of the uninformed cash register attendants they encounter in big box stores, and in the same breath, offer so little to the guy who is actually trying that the few pennies of profit represent another nail in the coffin for that business.

So much BS pricing does make it online, it lasts beyond its relevance, often the complete circumstances are left out. I've read about prices paid that I absolutely know to be below wholesale in some cases and that only breeds distrust for what is a legitimate price. Sorry for the rant, but even our price-matching policies are often like the consolation prize, not valuable business.

I love when I read about the enthusiasm for a product here. And I believe that consumers and the industry could benefit from real pricing information that is very hard to come by, but anonymous anecdotal pricing is hugely damaging to the industry by eroding the quality of the customer experience and by making the piano business much less attractive to the business people who have other options.

Finally, if a business can capitulate to your lowball offer, have the courtesy to realize that you won and the business lost. Spreading a few details of your conquest may not always be in good taste.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#1893807 - 05/08/12 09:57 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: PianoWorksATL]
Kona_V-Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 279
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Mac,

I don't sell the CLP's, but I also don't see any justification for the prices you are suggesting on CLP-430. I know you compiled info from the "prices paid" thread, but there's nothing there either. I did see 440's reported around $2,700-$2,800. I also know that Clavinovas just faced large shipping hikes within the last month.

I understand your aggressive negotiation strategy as you have also shared in past threads, but I don't see this as sound advice.

To this forum in general,

Simultaneously on the piano forum, there is a thread about the Cincinnati Steinway dealer going out of business. This is the same dealer who only a few years ago set the record for the largest Steinway institutional sale on record (165 pianos). In fact, every few months I read about another longtime dealer downsizing or closing on the forum. Hardly anyone is getting fat in the piano business except for a number of online retailers.

I'm not suggesting that someone overpay for a product, but I am stating that a lot of the prices you hear or see are completely unsustainable for any brick & mortar business. That business model, where a retail dealer is asked to attractively present, stock, train staff to demonstrate a quality product so that B&H or Gigasonic (electronics generalists) can pick off the sale, is more responsible than the economic downturn for destroying quality representation of these products. People here routinely make fun of the uninformed cash register attendants they encounter in big box stores, and in the same breath, offer so little to the guy who is actually trying that the few pennies of profit represent another nail in the coffin for that business.

So much BS pricing does make it online, it lasts beyond its relevance, often the complete circumstances are left out. I've read about prices paid that I absolutely know to be below wholesale in some cases and that only breeds distrust for what is a legitimate price. Sorry for the rant, but even our price-matching policies are often like the consolation prize, not valuable business.

I love when I read about the enthusiasm for a product here. And I believe that consumers and the industry could benefit from real pricing information that is very hard to come by, but anonymous anecdotal pricing is hugely damaging to the industry by eroding the quality of the customer experience and by making the piano business much less attractive to the business people who have other options.

Finally, if a business can capitulate to your lowball offer, have the courtesy to realize that you won and the business lost. Spreading a few details of your conquest may not always be in good taste.


Brick and Mortar shops that offer products available tax free with other incentives on top of that like a free speaker/bench and then free shipping. It is a no brainer that every B&M is going out of business. It makes perfect sense to go out to a store, try out the equipment, and then purchase it online at a better price. Why pay over $1,000 more for the same thing? So B&M's have a price match policy at the very end to salvage sales, and that is no way to make a profit, so why even exist anymore?

The only solution would be for all Music Instrument companies to come out with set prices that stores have to sell them at, including online companies. Exactly the same way Apple does business. It works, and there is no confusion as to how much something costs. With Apple, we know roughly how much it costs to manufacture the Ipad or Iphone as it is no secret what the parts are inside. So we all know they make about a 60%-70% profit off of each one sold. Why is it that Roland and Yamaha can't do the same. This vast network of B&M's like Best Buy are on life support at the moment competing against Newegg and Amazon. I don't see them winning this battle if they cannot match or surpass their competitors. However in order to do that they themselves have to get rid of all their stores making them tax free for online, then aggressively market as amazon and newegg do online. They need to make the switch before they go the Circuit City route..

Another way would be for Roland and Yamaha should bypass the whole B&M and online retailer network all together. Imagine how much more that company would make by just shipping the items to customers themselves. Their profit margin would be much greater and there would be no markup as the price would be set.


Edited by Kona_V-Piano (05/09/12 12:46 AM)
_________________________
Roland V-Piano, Yamaha CLP990, Yamaha S90

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#1894297 - 05/09/12 05:11 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: PianoWorksATL]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3800
Loc: North Carolina
You might not see this as sound advice, but someone else does and he ran with it.
In THIS THREAD someone just bought the CLP430 for $2000.
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
I understand your aggressive negotiation strategy as you have also shared in past threads, but I don't see this as sound advice.

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#1894314 - 05/09/12 05:51 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: MacMacMac]
immuno Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
You might not see this as sound advice, but someone else does and he ran with it.
In THIS THREAD someone just bought the CLP430 for $2000.
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
I understand your aggressive negotiation strategy as you have also shared in past threads, but I don't see this as sound advice.


Haha,that was me and I have more piano sales anecdotes about other customers, after waiting in Costco for 3 hours. However, I feel like it would be untasteful to share publicly so feel free to PM me if you really want to know more about what happened in that big, giant warehouse.

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#1894353 - 05/09/12 07:05 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: MacMacMac]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2702
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
You might not see this as sound advice, but someone else does and he ran with it.
In THIS THREAD someone just bought the CLP430 for $2000.
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
I understand your aggressive negotiation strategy as you have also shared in past threads, but I don't see this as sound advice.
That's great Mac, but it actually supports every single point that I made. The dealer tried but ultimately thought it was a worthless effort, Costco abused the little guy, you found only 1 post (that magically appeared the same day), it was still 10% higher than the number you suggested, and immuno (thanks for joining the discussion) follows up to suggest that his customer experience was less than pleasant. Check, check, check, check. A weakened piano dealer gets his sale picked off by a peripheral business that knows zero about pianos.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#1894370 - 05/09/12 07:42 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: PianoWorksATL]
immuno Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
You might not see this as sound advice, but someone else does and he ran with it.
In THIS THREAD someone just bought the CLP430 for $2000.
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
I understand your aggressive negotiation strategy as you have also shared in past threads, but I don't see this as sound advice.
That's great Mac, but it actually supports every single point that I made. The dealer tried but ultimately thought it was a worthless effort, Costco abused the little guy, you found only 1 post (that magically appeared the same day), it was still 10% higher than the number you suggested, and immuno (thanks for joining the discussion) follows up to suggest that his customer experience was less than pleasant. Check, check, check, check.


Hi there. First of all, I didn't mean to imply that I had a "less than pleasant" experience at Costco; I had a great experience at Costco. I was at Costco for 3 hours by choice, just fooling around with the pianos and continuously asking questions to the seller. Meanwhile, I saw a lot of interested customers, many who purchased and did not get the same "freebies" (free delivery and USB MIDI songs) as me -- that's essentially all I meant when I said "I have stories to tell (about my experience at Costco)."

I also think I should explain a bit better how this Costco thing works, as I think I see a few misconceptions in your post:

Costco makes deals with the local vendors (authorized Yamaha dealers) to sell the pianos at a discounted price that they both agree on. These local vendors, much of the time, are the "little guy," so the notion that Costco is boxing out the little guy isn't really fair to either party; both Costco and the vendors win - they're both making a sale. The reason why vendors like doing this is because 1) they're moving a lot of inventory (there's no way a piano store could sell that much in such a short time on their own) and 2) there is no customer haggling for a better price. These prices have already been haggled by Costco executives. Essentially, they've already done the work for the customer. And no, Costco won't budge and go lower. Trust me. One couple tried to bargain. The seller told them to talk to the Costco store manager and the Costco manager told them he'd have to ask corporate. You think corporate would be able to decide on a *new, lower* price in a split second? Of course not. Costco has pricing down to an exact science and the men in suits have already crunched the math. The couple figured it was too much trouble and ended up paying the original price. Costco's pricing strategy is solid.

Next, Costco and the vendor also agrees to how many of each model they can sell. For example, the seller could only take orders for 8 CLP 430s. If there was no limit, then yes, the vendor might end up hurting a lot. I'm sure his/her inventory could be cleared selling CLP 430s at $2000. Costco's purpose is not to clear their inventory.

Finally, the person selling the pianos at Costco is an expert with Yamaha lineup. He is a professional piano salesman, albeit, a 3rd party. It's not like it's "Bob" from the electronics department at Costco selling pianos. And that's why my experience was as perfectly good as walking into a piano store.

Quote:
A weakened piano dealer gets his sale picked off by a peripheral business that knows zero about pianos.


This is a huge misconception and a bit unfair to Costco. As I mentioned, it's not Costco doing the actual selling. You're right, Costco knows zero about pianos, but Costco doesn't need to know anything about pianos. That's why they hire the vendor and the salesman. Yes, I ordered through Costco, but I essentially bought from the vendor. How do they split the commission? Well that might be where it gets a little muddy, haha.

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#1894384 - 05/09/12 08:17 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: PianoWorksATL]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3800
Loc: North Carolina
Standard sales training says that a salesman should start high and allow the customer to bring him down a bit.

As a buyer, I never allow that. Instead I start low and allow the dealer to bring me up a bit ... or I go elsewhere.
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
It [$2000] was still 10% higher than the number you suggested.
Of course. That's precisely the strategy. Offer low, and come up a bit in the end.

Anyway, if $2000 is 10% more than my suggested offer, it's still 33% less than the other dealer's offer.

You might not "see this as sound advice" ... but reality says otherwise.

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#1894864 - 05/10/12 04:13 PM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: MacMacMac]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2702
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
That's precisely the strategy. Offer low, and come up a bit in the end.
Mac, that's quite a bit less severe than your past descriptions of your negotiations. On several occasions, I've read where you make only a one time offer, take it or leave it. You also said you never make a second offer. You are encouraged to do what works for you, but understand that doesn't work for everyone or in every scenario.

To immuno,

It's kind of like you describe but not entirely. In Atlanta, previous vendors have rolled out the carpet and it was not that different than piano in the mall, schools or other event sales. Negotiation was limited, and to be sure, the salespeople working the sale disliked the whole experience. The current Yamaha dealer is, like you said, more formulaic. However, without dragging this out, I want to go to the heart of the matter. This is either profitable for the vendor or it is not. The idea of limited supply is there for only 2 possible logical reasons...to create urgency for the buyer (while supplies last!) which is most likely, IMO. Or the whole thing is negotiated at the corporate level (profit for Costco & profit for manufacturer, tip money for vendor) and vendor participation is required to maintain the line (profitable or not). The 3rd option is that the CLP-430 is treated as a loss leader in hopes that the salesperson can upsell. This would mean no profit, or perhaps even a small loss on that model and also the reason for the limited supply. This plays right back into scenario 2...maybe the vendor makes money and maybe he loses money depending on a few larger sales that may or may not happen.

Anyway, I'll leave this thread from here on if you prefer to have the last words. smile
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#1895710 - 05/12/12 10:50 AM Re: Yamaha CLP 230 vs YDP [Re: nananda]
nholur Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/07/12
Posts: 14
Thanks all for the advice. Anyone in ny area who got a good deal on the clavinovas ?

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