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#1892439 - 05/06/12 06:23 PM Re: Brodmann 212 original hammer heads size [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I'm sorry, I know that they are surely busy, but I'm not the only one who had problems with that brand bought in my country (forums also testify that).
However the factory seems to pass over at all.

In U.S.A. they are considered very good instruments, here it is quite different (Perhaps there is a reason)

Some owners in my country just sold their piano with disappointment, I otherwise spent a lot of money and I'm already waiting for the most important (and tampered) part: the keyboard.

Perhaps I'm just stupid: I thought that they were very polite people (even if they have choosen the ill-mannered, most dangerous and swindler seller in my country) and I hoped that placing myself in a reasonable way would helped me, but no one there seems to want to help me really.

Do I have to phone again the official distributor now?
He could reach me in front of my home armed with a gun and with his "guys" at any time of day or night. He has done it with other disappointed customers, I hear that it's quite normal with him.

Is it my turn now?

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#1892661 - 05/07/12 02:18 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1035
Loc: west coast island, canada
Hello Dave,
It's very unfortunate that you've had to experience this ongoing dilemma with your piano. I remember your other posting here on PW last summer with this issue.
It is often difficult for readers here to discern the complete picture, let alone understand from a first hand perspective.
There isn't a large European presence on this forum, which may or may not have been of further help in resolving your piano situation and issues. I believe you are sincere in speaking about various problems that have arisen. Obviously it means enough to you, to write in to an international forum even though it's predominately USA based.

I don't ever remember Brodmann Piano Co. directly making an introduction, comment or response here on PW in regards to their pianos. Might have been a nice gesture and is still welcome.

Don't companies know in this day and age that information travels very quickly. Reputation is more fragile for a new company such as Brodmann than many older, established ones.
You haven't presented your dealer in a very good light - it's not easy to discern from a distance, but doesn't sound very harmonious.

Ultimately you want your Brodmann 212 in top shape, and it's a major drag, I imagine, that you've had this experience with what you thought was a new piano.

If I was part of the Brodmann company and management, (and Austria being next door to Italy) I'd have an approved company technician fully assess the situation, potentially provide you with a replacement piano, and make sure the representative/dealer of my products was representing a high quality level of service and commitment .... which hopefully reflects the company selling the original product.

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#1892807 - 05/07/12 09:55 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Yes, the problem is just that: no one says it's not true, no one says it's false, but no one takes a stand or gets something to help. But, I understand this... (I'm going to be a psychologist).

That's why I said "I'll pay everything You want", to prevent what is unfortunately going on now.

Anyway, it's all very "italian"... no protection to the customers.

Initially the factory said "You have a problem with the dealer" and all finished with this sentence.

The dealer said after that episode with loud, un-polite and vulgar tone (words like "f..k you, f..k that, you've broken my b...s, they are not good pianos...) that he has problems with the factory now and after my report (and pictures) they are not pleased to speak with him.

But everything seems to remain the same. (neutral position)

The factory offered me a tech consulting after without a date and not in a reasonably short period of time. Ok, I also understand that: the dealer should do this kind of service normally (but it's famous: he doesn't).

(There are some very honest dealers here: please, try to choose a good one)

After that events (occured in the following months of quiet and silent waiting) I provided to the problems by myself with more than one (well respected) technician.

I haven't explained yet that much of the money I've spent it has been used to "re-make up" the action.

No "one-day" intervention could do this and, I mean, only a fool could invent this kind of (costly) problems just for fun.

(I can provide all the repair process receipts with the problems that have been emerged: I called Steinway & Sons techncians, I'm not telling jokes. They also said "communicate that shame to Europiano foundation" but I'm not that kind of person.
I just wanted a keyboard for my poor piano)

So, now I have a beautiful action, a new (right) hammer head set is coming soon, and just remains the need of a right keyboard that is the only part of my piano that I cannot get by myself.

When I asked it to the factory they said "yes, it's possible", but I'm going to believe that it is quite difficult that a keyboard needs so many months of waiting. Or not?

You see, I'm only a worried student, specially because I've heard only words (silently) for 11 whole months.

I just feel myself cheated.


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#1892862 - 05/07/12 11:32 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1246
What I don't understand in all of this is that you have bought a new piano, which needs it's entire action and keyboard replaced after a very short time -

surely that's serious enough for them to either refund you the money you paid for the piano and take the piano back, or replace the piano with a new one? A new action and keyboard is a costly repair for anyone!

I hope you get this sorted out soon, Tante Auguri con tuo pianoforte.

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#1892865 - 05/07/12 11:36 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Very kind Joe!

Yes, I've missed to say that the first dealer reaction was: "it's a shame: excuse me, we replace the whole instrument. I've already ordered one for you."

It has been the start of the whole "adventure" and I naively believed him.

When he undestood (after months of waiting) that I understood that the situation was "un-clear", he said that he was going to replace the action-keyboard-hammers block.

In the same way, when he understood that "I have understood", he started with the threads to my dad.

That's all...

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#1892887 - 05/07/12 12:11 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1246
Which part of Italy are you in, Dave?

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#1892888 - 05/07/12 12:11 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1246
I have a Brodmann 187 and it has been OK. Not perfect, but OK.

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#1892889 - 05/07/12 12:13 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8567
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
In the same way, when he understood that "I have understood", he started with the threads to my dad.

I'm afraid I don't understand this statement, Dave. How old are you (if you don't mind me asking)? Are you a teenager or minor so that the dealer would "started with the threads to my dad".

Just curious.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1892917 - 05/07/12 01:03 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Rickster]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
No, as above, I'm at university, so I'm not a teenager.

My dad just called the dealer because he no longer responded to my telephone number.

It's just folly.

I do not speak anymore about it. I see that is vain and I run the risk of being taken for a fool.

If you cancel this forum, I would be very grateful.

Thank You for your time. Bye

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#1892960 - 05/07/12 02:07 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8567
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
No, as above, I'm at university, so I'm not a teenager.

My dad just called the dealer because he no longer responded to my telephone number.

It's just folly.

I do not speak anymore about it. I see that is vain and I run the risk of being taken for a fool.

If you cancel this forum, I would be very grateful.

Thank You for your time. Bye


Dave, I don’t think anyone here remotely thinks you are a fool or foolish. And, there is nothing wrong with being young and having your dad in on the process. I have two sons, ages 34 and 32 and I still go to bat for them if need be. smile

As far as this thread being folly or in vane, I don’t view it as such myself, but I do think that only the dealer or manufacturer are in a position to solve the issues and problems with your piano.

Norbert has shown an interest in your situation and has offered helpful information in an effort to resolve the problems. According to him, the manufacturer is already aware of your situation and a dialog of communication is in motion.

I do wish for you the best possible outcome regarding your piano.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1892968 - 05/07/12 02:21 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I'm sorry. I'm honestly grateful to you, to Norbert, Dara and Mr.Kraus.

I'm just dismayed that a polite trade mark put physically their customers in danger.

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#1892991 - 05/07/12 03:10 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
From everything I heared about "Italian dealers" I am starting to believe it's to a large extent an "Italian dealer issue"....

Yours is not the only one, often involving a number of different makes. Anyone here remembering the Seiler piano few years back? frown

This is no excuse not to be looked after but I'm honest when saying I still haven't understood your situation.

In North America/Canada I am in contact with many other dealers and nobody has ever had a situation any like yours.

In fact there have been very few if any problems in much tougher climates than Italy and those have been of a very minor nature, virtually same as all other makes have from time to time.

So your case is truly intriguing, one would like to see it through.

Yours is so exceptional that I have never have heard anything like this - regardless of make!

Getting quite curious what exactly is going on here...

Hang tough, we're here for you!

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (05/07/12 03:18 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1892998 - 05/07/12 03:25 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I just say that the truly intriguing fact is that the factory still have that kind of distributor.

If you would be in my country, you could spend afternoons reading the disappointments and the "adventures" happened in that store on forums.

My case is normal.

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#1893016 - 05/07/12 04:00 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
The problem is obviously a "store" - not a "distributor"

Brodmann distributes its pianos directly.

P.S. I heard about your case once before, you're right, the "store" was mentioned in that connection...

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1893017 - 05/07/12 04:04 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
As far as I know, the "direct distribution" passes rightly through him.

He is the direct distribution (here).

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#1893044 - 05/07/12 04:52 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1246
In the U.K Brodmann go through Chris Venables, a reputable dealer with an excellent and proven track record. The pianos are prepared to the highest level, and I think that if one arrived at his dealership in that condition it would be sent back to the factory before it got anywhere near the shop floor.

This experience you have had is deplorable.

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#1893058 - 05/07/12 05:18 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
No warranty support, no preparation (just to mention on thing, the key lateral movement was of 1,5mm about) and even not a simple cover on the piano during the delivery.

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#1893155 - 05/07/12 08:49 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Dave:

What made you buy this piano?

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1893416 - 05/08/12 09:39 AM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
1) Beautiful sound and quality built (in the store)
2) Brand new at 1/3 of the price list
3) 5 years warranty
4) The distributor underlined that it was a "Viennese" version of the Chinese one.

But when delivered, all problems in few days.
He also said: "technicians will work for two days on your piano before the delivery". (Why? They have tampered it?)

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#1893486 - 05/08/12 12:14 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Dave:

We once had 2 "Viennese" 187 grands and they were absolutely beautiful. They did have slightly different hammers [Renner] than the regular series which has Abel.

The owners for both these pianos have been extremely happy with their choice, one being a well known teacher giving piano a great testimonial.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1821759/1/Brodma

Very sorry to hear your experience has been somewhat different, as promised will help you see this one through.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (05/08/12 12:19 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1893487 - 05/08/12 12:15 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
RAY930 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 86
Loc: Europe
I have only seen good pianos and service from Brodmann, either direcly or thru forums, your is a quite strange situation. I checked their web site and only shows a dealer for Italy: http://www.brodmann-pianos.at/index.php?id=373&L=3%20[0%2C0%2C17398] is that the one?

also have you tried to contact Colin Taylor who is top responsable for technical aspects?

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#1893502 - 05/08/12 12:50 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: RAY930]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: RAY930
I have only seen good pianos and service from Brodmann, either direcly or thru forums, your is a quite strange situation. I checked their web site and only shows a dealer for Italy: http://www.brodmann-pianos.at/index.php?id=373&L=3%20[0%2C0%2C17398] is that the one?

also have you tried to contact Colin Taylor who is top responsable for technical aspects?


Yes, a lot of promises, but unfortunately nothing seems to happen or change.

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#1893505 - 05/08/12 12:52 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Norbert]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Dave:

We once had 2 "Viennese" 187 grands and they were absolutely beautiful. They did have slightly different hammers [Renner] than the regular series which has Abel.

The owners for both these pianos have been extremely happy with their choice, one being a well known teacher giving piano a great testimonial.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1821759/1/Brodma

Very sorry to hear your experience has been somewhat different, as promised will help you see this one through.

Norbert

Thank You Mr.Norbert, very kind.

I choosed my piano because was totally different from the same brand grands (perhaps because it is a "prototype" and virtually identical to the viennese version except for the marks).

I'm quite sure that it could need that renner hammers... but even at Renner factory nobody knows anything about the brand.

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#1893541 - 05/08/12 01:58 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Norbert]
Seeker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 360
Loc: Rockville, MD
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Dave:

We once had 2 "Viennese" 187 grands and they were absolutely beautiful. They did have slightly different hammers [Renner] than the regular series which has Abel.===SNIP===

Norbert - can you be more specific about the difference in the hammers? Shape? Weight? Size? Impregnated? Underfelt? and as important, prep voicing and any follow-up voicing you (or your technician(s)) have done since then.

In my experience, I have found hammer head shape (relatively round and pear shaped at one extreme) to pointed (Renner Blue Points come to mind), **does** make a difference in the quality of the tone produced where "quality" is not an indication of better or worse, but more related to "color", "intensity", etc.
_________________________
Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")

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#1893574 - 05/08/12 03:09 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
The famous hammer heads brand said me these words in the morning (I delete the brand here for the respect of the privacy):

"Thank you for consulting us in this matter.

Unfortunately we don’t know the manufacturer of the B. grand pianos because this is a product produced in far east and manufactured from a company who uses the brand “B.”.

Therefore we have to know the name of the manufacturer.

Best regards"

So they seem to be not a direct customer of both the well-known hammers brands (the second one answered me the same just in different words).


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#1893624 - 05/08/12 04:57 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
Quote:
Therefore we have to know the name of the manufacturer.


Quote:
So they seem to be not a direct customer of both the well-known hammers brands (the second one answered me the same just in different words).


Dave,

You could try Wilh. Steinberg, Eisenberg Germany as the manufacturer, because of:

Brodmann Artist Series

see post "1692359:

Quote:
Bearing in mind the above, the first batch of the Artist Series had the case parts and frame assembled in their Chinese factory, the stringing, action, keyboard, dampers are fitted in the Wilhm Steinberg factory in Eisenberg, Germany. For uniformity, all toning is done by just one dedicated technician. (Ex Steinway tech). Hammers are either Renner or Abel, strings Roslau, soundboard Bolduc, pinblock 5 ply maple by Bolduc, action Renner, keys Kluge and damper felt La roux. The designs of the 187, 212 and 228 are the same as the PE series, which look very like S-way A, B and C models (!) the concert 275, Brodmann say, has similarities to S-way, Yamaha and Kawai concert models. (!). Brodmann are planning an upright 132 model too. Frame colour is gold rather than light copper and there is more detail around the frame holes than on the PE series. Inside of rim is birds eye maple. Main rim is of 3mm maple laminations.


schwammerl.

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#1893631 - 05/08/12 05:14 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
It's interesting...

Compare http://www.wilh-steinberg.com/eng/wst-grandsp-212.html

with http://www.brodmann-pianos.at/grand_piano_2120.html?&L=6

Or the same pictures are very similar or the pianos are so...

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#1893676 - 05/08/12 06:02 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2339
Loc: Lowell MA
Pattie and I just spent a week at Steinberg ... Very interesting and well done. Kevin, head of manufacturing is a sharp guy.

Steve Pearson from Chicago is now head of all grand piano production ...

It might do to get some facts here ...

What is the question again ??
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
facebook.com/E. J. Buck & Sons Performances

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#1893680 - 05/08/12 06:10 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1246
I think that Steinberg and Brodmann have some of the same people in management. It's fairly well known in the industry that Wilh. Steinberg were making some of the Brodmann uprights at one time - quite expensive pianos but good quality.

The Steinberg 212 is probably the same piano as the Brodmann 212, in the same way that the May Berlin is the same as the Brodmann. The name on the fallboard matters less than the quality of the instrument and the follow up service you get from the dealer.

It's no secret that there is a factory in china producing pianos with several different names on the same instrument.

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#1893681 - 05/08/12 06:10 PM Re: Brodmann 212 Adventure... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
I am vigorously pursuing to get to the bottom of things here.
The mystery will be solved and from first accounts received, is starting to unravel.

Dave's piano is definitely *not* a Steinberg made model.
This would be impossible considering the piano was sold even below the price of a 6'3 grand.

There seems to be more to the story with all fingers pointing increasingly to the dealer.

If he is indeed a *dealer* any longer....

Norbert frown
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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