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#1894338 - 05/09/12 06:33 PM New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700
maclum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Hi first I want to say I little experience with digital pianos so please excuse what might appear to be silly questions.

Looking to buy a digital piano, the objective is to teach the kids piano, give them the opportunity to explore and have fun with music and my wife a I would like to play the piano (we are very average players. Finally it would be nice if it looked good.

Looking to spend 1-2k. Originally looked at the yamaha CLP 430 which we could get for 2k before tax. I was told by a expert that the casio ap620 will provide better fun for the kids, and similar sound quality for much less.

Then I saw a old CVP 700 for sale, dings in the cabinet but still working well.

Which would be a better buy if the price was similar? the cvp has only 64 polyphony but we like playing classical, are we going to notice that?, does the casio have more features the kids will like? should we be worried about the cvp 700 breaking down. Is there another digital we should be looking at new or used.

thanks


Edited by maclum (05/09/12 06:42 PM)

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#1894341 - 05/09/12 06:40 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2503
[Edited]

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#1894355 - 05/09/12 07:14 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: pv88]
maclum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Thanks it is good to know that the casio is a good piano the other interesting question is, is a top of the range old digital piano cvp 700 a better buy than mid to low level new piano casio 620?

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#1894380 - 05/09/12 08:08 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 846
Loc: Lakewood, CA
Maclum
The two pianos are similar in terms of features. It comes down to the key action you like best. You would want to play both and decide which you prefer. Both pianos have additional sounds and rhythms. The Casio has a better sequencer but this would be important only if you want to record which might be down the road a ways.

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#1894387 - 05/09/12 08:27 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: galaxy4t]
maclum Offline
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Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Thanks since we are not experts my concern with the key action is 1. is that it is close enough to a acoustic piano that my kids can move back and forth in case their teacher has a acoustic. 2. Are the keys going to survive my kids enthusiasm (especially the older cvp)

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#1894391 - 05/09/12 08:40 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 846
Loc: Lakewood, CA
Digital piano actions can develop problems just like an acoustic eventually does. A digital will never feel exactly like an acoustic, but your boys should not have any trouble going back and forth between the two. As far as you not being experts, you will likely have a preference for one key action over the other.

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#1894472 - 05/09/12 11:22 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: galaxy4t]
maclum Offline
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Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Thanks! so functionality is similar, both have realistic key actions, it gets down to, how reliable is a 10 year old cvp700, is the 64 polyphony good enough in the cvp700, which key action do the adults like and how much nicer is the cvp700's cabinet.

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#1894481 - 05/09/12 11:40 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1688
Loc: Pennsylvania
I have owned the CASIO AP-620 and I could not get rid of it quick enough. I did not like the rapid decay rate of the tones.

I also owned Yamaha DPs and would recommend the CLP 430 over the CASIO for a better sound, especially for classical music.

The CASIO will be more fun for the children because of all the various backgrounds you can bring up.

I believe the CVP has a lot of those bells and whistles also but I know nothing about that DP. If you could get that CVP for about $1000 I would say go for it.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#1894487 - 05/09/12 11:51 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: dmd]
maclum Offline
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Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Thanks Don, what causes the rapid decay? is it a definable spec in the DP? Unfortunately for my wife and I we want this purchase to teach and excite the kids about music so the casio would be better than the CLP 430. The cvp 700 might be a great compromise but I need some advice about the importance of the 64 polyphony. If I could get it down to 1k for the 700 it would be a easier decision but the 700 is in a grand cabinet(although it is beat up) so it is priced higher.

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#1894492 - 05/10/12 12:05 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
immuno Offline
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Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: maclum
Thanks Don, what causes the rapid decay? is it a definable spec in the DP? Unfortunately for my wife and I we want this purchase to teach and excite the kids about music so the casio would be better than the CLP 430. The cvp 700 might be a great compromise but I need some advice about the importance of the 64 polyphony. If I could get it down to 1k for the 700 it would be a easier decision but the 700 is in a grand cabinet(although it is beat up) so it is priced higher.


This is interesting...Mind if I chime in?

What's your experience working with children? I've learned that kids don't always go for what's "fun" or the "bells and whistles." A while ago there was a research study with babies. 2 guitars were placed in front of them. They had to choose between a toy guitar and a Gibson. The result was that the babies would naturally gravitate towards the Gibson. (sorry I cannot cite this research now). This study suggested that kids know "quality" when they see it. I say get a piano that you like. Forget about which piano has the most bells and whistles. If you appreciate it and show that, chances are kids will too.

Finally I would say how much kids like you and enjoy learning piano from you depends on your teaching style, not what kind of features the piano has.

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#1894501 - 05/10/12 12:28 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: immuno]
maclum Offline
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Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Great question, first let me say, other than as a parent I have had not formally trained children. But I did purchase a portable Yamaha 76 key digital grand piano and with out any training or prompting from me the kids have leaned how to use it and have ball just experimenting with the different sounds. This showed to me how such functionality can provide fun to the kids through music - that is priceless. So it seems to me that the broad functionality provide fun and exposure for our kids into music in general, where as the piano lessons will provide skills and knowledge.

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#1894505 - 05/10/12 12:34 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
immuno Offline
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Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 35
Cool.

Originally Posted By: maclum
So it seems to me that the broad functionality provide fun and exposure for our kids into music in general, where as the piano lessons will provide skills and knowledge.


I think this is a great distinction you made. You have to ask yourself what is your ultimate goal then: to introduce kids to music or teach them some really technical piano skills (classical and stuff)? I'm guessing it's a mix of both. Therefore, you'll want something that sounds great but has enough cool stuff for kids to tinker with. Obviously you already know this, duh. I'm the one that's late to the party.

I wish I could provide more help with digital pianos specifically, Casios. All I can say is that in my shopping, I found that CVPs are really nice. I wish I could afford one. I just ordered a CLP 430. It was also $2000, like you mentioned. I would recommend a used CVP.

I can tell you that growing up, my teacher had 2 digital pianos (and rather nice ones as far as I could tell) AND a baby grand. The setup was really nice. I don't think they had all the fancy beats and electronic gizmos, but that was okay with me. The most fun part of the lesson was each of us hopping on a digital piano and her teaching me that way. So ideally, maybe you could get TWO digital pianos. Hahaha...

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#1894508 - 05/10/12 12:42 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: immuno]
maclum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Thanks for your input your have nailed my dilemma. I want both and can not afford to pay too much for it (like 90% of us). I will have to compromise somewhere because we can not buy top of the range and that is why I am asking for the help of this forum. The Casio AP620 or CVP 700 are the compromises I have identified and I am hoping the combined knowledge and expertise of this forum will help me either choose between these two or find another better solution.


Edited by maclum (05/10/12 12:45 AM)

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#1894509 - 05/10/12 12:43 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
immuno Offline
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Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 35
See my edited post above. smile

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#1894513 - 05/10/12 12:50 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: immuno]
maclum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Thanks!!! so not only do I have to buy a expensive DP but I have to buy two? other than the sticker shock that is a good idea, I could use our existing, Yamaha 76 key keyboard and play along with the kids, that really would be a lot of fun!!!


Edited by maclum (05/10/12 01:21 AM)

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#1894515 - 05/10/12 12:54 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
immuno Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 35
Haha. It was definitely overkill. You only need 1 piano.

Good luck with the decision and purchase!

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#1894543 - 05/10/12 02:11 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: immuno]
maclum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
thanks it really was a good idea about playing with two DP I will do that!

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#1894629 - 05/10/12 07:56 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1688
Loc: Pennsylvania
BTW, I did not see whether you have actually played on any of these models you are considering. Have you ?

It is usually not a good idea to purchase without playing around with them a little bit, anyway.

If you have decided it is now between the CVP700 and the CASIO AP620 I would have to suggest that you make every effort to go with the CVP700.


Edited by dmd (05/10/12 07:56 AM)
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#1894656 - 05/10/12 09:01 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: dmd]
maclum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Hi we tried the CLP 430 which we liked and we will try the cvp 700 soon. I need to work out where to find the casio to try. I am curious as to why you are recommending the cvp 700? It would be great to get your opinion about the impact of only 64 polyphony.


Edited by maclum (05/10/12 09:03 AM)

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#1894701 - 05/10/12 10:55 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1688
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: maclum
Hi we tried the CLP 430 which we liked and we will try the cvp 700 soon. I need to work out where to find the casio to try. I am curious as to why you are recommending the cvp 700? It would be great to get your opinion about the impact of only 64 polyphony.


I am recommending the CVP700 only because I thought you had already ruled out the CLP430 and I know what the CASIO AP-620 is. Also, I know the CVP product line is a good one, in general... although a bit pricey.

64 polyphony will not affect you to any noticeable degree, if at all.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#1894732 - 05/10/12 11:44 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
maclum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Thanks Don, I just found a great discussion on polyphony in a old topic, I hope it is OK to quote directly. The discussion went on for awhile before this submission which gave a very practical example of how 64 polyphony might be a problem?

by seanakaforty
"I guess I'm one of those guys that buys into the polyphony hype then. Let's say you hold the damper pedal while playing a four-note arpeggio played over four octaves while the left hand plays the root note in octaves, that's 18 notes of polyphony. Assuming you're using a stereo sound (the standard nowadays), this becomes 36 notes of polyphony. Now lets say you play the same thing with two combined two sounds (grand piano and vibes for example), both of which use stereo samples. Now you're already using 72 notes of polyphony! And this is just a modest example. Me personally, I have some setups that use 5 or 6 different sounds, a few of which are stereo (double the polyphony).

Now, since we're mainly focusing on digital pianos here, let me give you another example that doesn't have to involve layering sounds. Instead of an arpeggio, think about playing a scale. If you play a scale over 4 octaves, with holding the damper pedal down, and the left hand playing octave root notes (not such a farfetched situation for a non-beginner pianist), that's already 60 notes of polyphony for a stereo piano sound!

Now I'm not saying that everybody will need a ton of polyphony, I'm just saying...it is not that hard to eat up polyphony in a hurry. I noticed dropouts often when I was using a board with 32 notes of polyphony (16 for stereo), so I upgraded. My current board has 64 notes, and I still notice dropouts when I am doing complex layering or using multiple stereo voices :rolleyes: .

Just my $0.02"


Edited by maclum (05/10/12 11:44 AM)

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#1894758 - 05/10/12 12:26 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
immuno Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: maclum
Thanks Don, I just found a great discussion on polyphony in a old topic, I hope it is OK to quote directly. The discussion went on for awhile before this submission which gave a very practical example of how 64 polyphony might be a problem?

by seanakaforty
"I guess I'm one of those guys that buys into the polyphony hype then. Let's say you hold the damper pedal while playing a four-note arpeggio played over four octaves while the left hand plays the root note in octaves, that's 18 notes of polyphony. Assuming you're using a stereo sound (the standard nowadays), this becomes 36 notes of polyphony. Now lets say you play the same thing with two combined two sounds (grand piano and vibes for example), both of which use stereo samples. Now you're already using 72 notes of polyphony! And this is just a modest example. Me personally, I have some setups that use 5 or 6 different sounds, a few of which are stereo (double the polyphony).

Now, since we're mainly focusing on digital pianos here, let me give you another example that doesn't have to involve layering sounds. Instead of an arpeggio, think about playing a scale. If you play a scale over 4 octaves, with holding the damper pedal down, and the left hand playing octave root notes (not such a farfetched situation for a non-beginner pianist), that's already 60 notes of polyphony for a stereo piano sound!

Now I'm not saying that everybody will need a ton of polyphony, I'm just saying...it is not that hard to eat up polyphony in a hurry. I noticed dropouts often when I was using a board with 32 notes of polyphony (16 for stereo), so I upgraded. My current board has 64 notes, and I still notice dropouts when I am doing complex layering or using multiple stereo voices :rolleyes: .

Just my $0.02"


It sounds like with 1 voice (such as grand piano for classical music), polyphony is not a problem. But when you start to add layers and layers, polyphony becomes your limiting reagent. It's kind of ironic that the CVP would only have 64 notes, since the CVP is supposed to have all the beats. layers and gadgets (vs the CLP). But obviously it's an older model.

My seller at Costco showed me some layering effects on the CVP-505 (that's a new model). It has 128-note polyphony. He layered strings, grand, and choir. It sounded really awesome and I personally didn't notice any dropout. He told me he once also played in the middle of the LA Convention center with it too, and he got his piano hooked up to the Convention Center's sound system. Everyone thought he had a full band and orchestra. That's how realistic it sounded. I know this doesn't help you, but my point is just that if you decide to get a DP with 128-note polyphony, you definitely won't have a problem.

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#1894768 - 05/10/12 12:49 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: immuno]
maclum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Great point, I doubt my wife and I will ever use that level of layering, but I am sure my kids will go crazy with that functionality. So this has helped me clarify what we need. If I want the kids to explore music in general and have fun then they will be using different voices and layering. Being kids they will want to do that to the extreme so the polyphony number will be a issue. The casio has around 190 which is plenty.

I do not want to throw in another issue this late in the discussion but I did just read about some DP's being able to connect to the internet and access online piano lessons? Is that possible?, useful? and is there a DP that can do it that does not cost a fortune?

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#1894823 - 05/10/12 02:38 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1688
Loc: Pennsylvania
Well, I have said about all I have to say on this subject.

My final thought would be to reiterate ...

Please do not purchase anything without playing it first.

I did that once and it was a big mistake.

Good Luck


Edited by dmd (05/10/12 02:39 PM)
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#1894828 - 05/10/12 02:49 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 846
Loc: Lakewood, CA
I doubt that you will have any issues running out of notes especially since you are all more or less starting out. As far as polophony goes, something with 32 is sufficient for many people. You would rarely run out of notes using a single voice. More voices and instruments playing could get in the way. However, I have a 32 voice Casio with lots of sounds and drum loops and rarely have any trouble with losing notes. Yes there are certain combinations of rhythms and voices that clip and drop notes, but it does surprisingly well. Most digital pianos have a note stealing algorithm that comes into play to minimize dropped notes.

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#1894996 - 05/10/12 07:48 PM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: galaxy4t]
maclum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Well lots of advice thanks for that. I will get back to you all next week after testing and tell you how it went

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#1895562 - 05/12/12 12:34 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
maclum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Hi we have decided to go with the Casio ap 620. The key action and cabinet style is perfect for our needs. The CVP 700 is also very good, the cabinet is great but the buttons look a little dated. But in the end it was the technology that won 128 polyphony vs 64, plug and play usb connection vs USB to Midi adapter, 3 year warranty vs none and very important for the kids it very easy for them to layer on the different voices. Finally and important for us, because we are on a budget, we can get the Casio for less than 1300 with no tax and the seller (who I found on this site thanks!!!) will also provide midi music customized to our needs, what more can you ask for.

I was very surprised and quite disappointed that the older DP's that I looked at (Yamaha and Roland at least 10 years old) were still priced very high even though technology, key action and PC connectivity has improved so much. Most people I talked to who were selling their older DP's (and many had them on the market for a long time with no bites)could not reconcile that even though they had purchased top of the line, high quality, expensive, musical instrument, they had also purchased a DIGITAL instrument, which is, at its heart, a great piece of technology, with built in redundancy and obsolescence. It is a pity because I will always buy used if I can get higher quality/functionality than new for the same price. But not this time.

Thanks for your help

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#1895570 - 05/12/12 12:55 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2503
[Edited]

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#1895576 - 05/12/12 01:04 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
immuno Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 35
It's a very smart buy, congratulations! I would liken buying a Casio over a old Clavinova to buying a new Ford Focus over an old Lexus or BMW. Like Clavinovas, BMWs and Lexus' can elicit a sense of prestige among owners. They also hold their value over time quite well. However, I wouldn't consider their older models to be very luxurious anymore, and owners can sometimes act like they have a stick up their butt. Hahaha. Obviously I mean no offense to anyone here.

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#1895593 - 05/12/12 02:20 AM Re: New casio ap620 versus yamaha cvp 700 [Re: maclum]
maclum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 57
Immuno I know where you are going with your analogy and I do agree in general but the funny thing is your specific example does not work. I did buy a old BMW 323 instead of a new ford because I got better engine/better suspension/better detailing/better performance in fact all in all better everything for a much cheaper price (except maintenance which was much more).

But in this case the the BMW equivalent, the CVP 700 is more expensive, is not better in all or even most features/specifications/.

Now if we were talking about the CVP models after the CVP700 like the CVP900 then it is a different story, they are very nice!!! they look great, nice big screen, good specs, but even more expensive. Would love to have one of those.

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