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#1859950 - 03/11/12 03:40 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Wow, 3 guys from Switzerland and all of them had their AvantGrand disassembled. That must mean something, I'm just not sure what smile

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#1859956 - 03/11/12 03:46 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Singleton]
sunwei Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/31/11
Posts: 5
Loc: Switzerland
I bought my N1 from A-Zulauf in Aarau. They actually also sell pianos on Ricardo and eBay. I don't think that the online purchase is the reason for no warranty.

I traded in my 1.5 year old Clavinova CLP-370 and together with the cashback promotion of Yamaha, I paid 39xx Franks. It's a good deal, isn't it?

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#1859965 - 03/11/12 03:56 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
Wow, 3 guys from Switzerland and all of them had their AvantGrand disassembled. That must mean something, I'm just not sure what smile


That is interesting, isn't it?
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1859968 - 03/11/12 03:57 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
sunwei Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/31/11
Posts: 5
Loc: Switzerland
My problem is similar to yours. The white E3 key makes a click noise when released. It took the guy quite a lot time to find out where the noise comes from and what is the reason. And finally it turn out to be a very small defect that one wood stick is 1mm away from the center where it is supposed to move up- and downwards.

Anyway, I think the overall quality and especially the finishing of N1 is very good.

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#1861817 - 03/14/12 02:55 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Dave Horne]
yaccob Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 21
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
Wow, 3 guys from Switzerland and all of them had their AvantGrand disassembled. That must mean something, I'm just not sure what smile


That is interesting, isn't it?


And here's another Swiss guy, whose Avantgrand N3 will come out of the 2yr- warranty this month, and who is interested in learning how to open up the N3 :-)

Any hints?
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N3

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#1863099 - 03/16/12 12:49 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: yaccob]
Le Senior Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/16/12
Posts: 1
Hi to everybody! Well, I'm from germany, my hometown is nearby the borderline to switzerland (!) and - believe it or not - my brandnew N2 is also deficient. It's actually my second N2, the first went back to Yamaha after weeks of endless discussions and trouble-shooting.
The problem now is within the shank stopper: The core of the shank stopper is wood but it's stiffened with metal side panels. The rear panel is loose (the red adhesive tape isn't much good obviously) and stick out a few millimeters in a wide bow, so six hammer heads of the octave in this area (which rather should not strike anything) are touching the metal side panel with an ugly noise.
(I've learned already, how to open up the N2...)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LgoS5h8Ddw0/T2bmGnNCRtI/AAAAAAAAACs/4Hz9dVXnPoQ/s640/DSC00236.JPG
Superglue or animal glue? Any hints?


Edited by Le Senior (03/19/12 03:59 AM)

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#1894599 - 05/10/12 05:55 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Le Senior]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
Hello guys, interesting thread, theres quite a lot in here!

I would like to take back the discussion on the quality of the keyboard for a second, if you dont mind.

My N1 has a decent overall feel, but certainly it doesnt compare to the feel I have on the real thing. The keys feel shallow, and the step of the escapement is way lower down the run of the key than on my baby grand. This means that if you depress the key at the level of the escapement and try to make a sound, nothing really comes out most of the times! I think another exemplary feature is the glissando. On my old Yamaha P80 I could easily do octaves glissando. I can do them easily on my N1 as well, but theres no way on earth I have ever been able to do them properly on my baby grand. That tells me theres something different in the regulation of the mechanics, which is quite substantial. What is your experience? How does the glissando trial works for you guys smile? Any contribution very much appreciated, thank you.

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#1894600 - 05/10/12 06:00 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2395
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
What is your baby grand? What make? All piano keyboards are different. My N3 replaced a Yamaha GC1 grand piano and I would say in very general terms the keys feel about the same. The response is a bit different but the feel is much the same.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1894610 - 05/10/12 07:08 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: EssBrace]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
Hi EssBrace, I have a Kawai babygrand (actually it is a Lipmann I think, one of those Kawai built in Korea or something..). I have been playing the piano for more than 30 years, and yes, thats one of the charms and the course at the same time of this instrument, no piano sounds or feels the same. But frankly, my N1 feels a bit like an hybrid between a grand and a digital, I have never played a grand which felt shallow like that, but that is the feeling I invariably get playing digitals, and uprights too, to a certain extent. When I go back to a normal grand piano, it always feels a lot easier to play, to speak in general terms.

I know it is a bit trivial, but I think the octaves glissando are a good way to exemplify the difference, they are notoriously difficult to produce on a modern grand (think Beethoven op 53 of course, and all the debates about those octaves in the last movement..), and I have never been able to produce them properly myself on any grand I have tried, but they are a piece of cake on this N1. Have you tried that on your N3?

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#1894614 - 05/10/12 07:10 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: AlexSilvestri
This means that if you depress the key at the level of the escapement and try to make a sound, nothing really comes out most of the times!


From what I gathered, this is called "playing off the jack" and it's a known limitation of the AvantGrand. A very minor one though, as there are hardly any practical uses for this technique.

I don't think it has anything to do with the shallow key depth though.

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#1894623 - 05/10/12 07:30 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
Thanks Gigantoad ( smile!), I am not sure the keys are actually shallow, actually I would be surprised if they were, as it seems to me it wouldnt match the sophistication the instrument has under many other aspects. What I am saying is that they [/i]feel[i] as if they were shallow. And I think this is down to the ligthness of the keyboard generally and specifically to the escapment kicking in too late in the run down of the key.

Interesting to know about that limitation of the Avantgrand though, I agree it is minor but playing keys already partially depressed should be the most substantial advantage of a grand's mechanics compared to uprights'..

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#1894630 - 05/10/12 08:00 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad]
offnote Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/10
Posts: 258
Loc: Banned
BTW from those photos, isn't this action from yamaha GB1 baby grand?
looks familiar...

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#1894857 - 05/10/12 04:01 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Originally Posted By: AlexSilvestri
Hi EssBrace, I have a Kawai babygrand (actually it is a Lipmann I think, one of those Kawai built in Korea or something..). I have been playing the piano for more than 30 years, and yes, thats one of the charms and the course at the same time of this instrument, no piano sounds or feels the same. But frankly, my N1 feels a bit like an hybrid between a grand and a digital,


Well not be 'smart', but your AvantGrand N1 is a hybrid, so there should be no surprise it feel like a hybrid.

Sorry if my tone was rude. I certainly did not want to come across that way. My point was that being that the AvantGrands are hybrid instruments, they will have naturally (no pun intended) have shortfalls compared to a real grand piano, err, well maintained grand piano. But they also have many advantages over acoustics, as well as pretty much all other digital pianos. Most people would surely rather have an acoustic grand piano vs any digital or hybrid, but the high end digitals and hybrids have so many advantages over acoustics, least of all price.


Edited by ZacharyForbes (05/10/12 08:01 PM)
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1894899 - 05/10/12 04:58 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: PianoZac]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
Well, yes mate, but thats a bit quoted out of context. It is the piano which is supposed to be an hybrid, not the keyboard. The piano is hybrid, because the mechanics (the keyboard) should give the response of a grand piano, and the sound is instead digital. What I am saying is that that my keyboard does not quite do what it says on the tin, and that (the keyboard, again), is the unique selling point of the instrument. It is certainly better than any digital I have ever played, but it is not quite the keyboard of a grand piano either.

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#1895006 - 05/10/12 08:02 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
I revised my post Alex...sorry about the somewhat rude tone!
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1895164 - 05/11/12 05:03 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: PianoZac]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
No probs at all, Zachary, thanks for taking the time to clarify your point. I am with you in saying that Avantgrands are the best amongst the non acoustic pianos, and am the first one to recognize their advantages, especially for people who practice regularly. Actually, I have to say that I spotted the issue straightaway when I tried the piano in the shop, and this didnt prevent me from buying it! I would buy the N1 again, for that matter, so my isnt to be intended as a mere criticism. Instead, since I read on this and other forums of people having their keyboard seviced in order to suit their likings/needs more, I was just wondering if it is possible to alter the settings of the keyboard toward my likings in order to make it even better for me, and if other people had had it serviced to meet similar targets as mine. It seems not, as far as I can see!

I did, however, contact Yamaha, they already replied (in a couple of days) suggesting me to contact directly the dealer, and leaving me a phone number if further enquiries were needed. I concted my dealer, who in turn gave me a number to call to have the matter discussed. So, once I do it (probably Monday, at this stage) I will keep you guys posted if of interest, it is some more information to be had, which is always useful I think. Thanks for your help guys.

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#1895174 - 05/11/12 05:56 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
Manolios Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: AlexSilvestri
[...]
I will keep you guys posted if of interest,[...]


Oh yes, please do that, Alex. I'm seriously considering the N1, the "Karnevil's Syndrome" luckily turned out to be a bit of a lot of fuss about nothing... I managed to reproduce the issue but it's not really that big of a deal for me.

Best regards,
Manolios

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#1895183 - 05/11/12 06:58 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
Oks, no probs, will post on this thread. BTW, whats the Karnevil's Syndrome..?

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#1895191 - 05/11/12 07:11 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
Manolios Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Germany

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#1895197 - 05/11/12 07:30 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
offnote Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/10
Posts: 258
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: AlexSilvestri
I am with you in saying that Avantgrands are the best amongst the non acoustic pianos, and am the first one to recognize their advantages, especially for people who practice regularly.


really? if not the real grand action avantgrand woudln't be worthy even to look at it...

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#1895300 - 05/11/12 10:56 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
Well, thats precisely their unique selling point, isnt it?

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#1895348 - 05/11/12 12:27 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: AlexSilvestri
Well, thats precisely their unique selling point, isnt it?


That and the 4 channel sound, which only factors in if you mostly the speaker system rather than headphones, and whether you consider the speaker system up to the job (which most people do, from what I've read). But yes, action first and foremost. It's the only one in its class.

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#1896047 - 05/13/12 05:57 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: AlexSilvestri
I know it is a bit trivial, but I think the octaves glissando are a good way to exemplify the difference, they are notoriously difficult to produce on a modern grand (think Beethoven op 53 of course...


As for Beethoven's "Waldstein" sonata:

Far easier to play those double glissandos as scales in each hand, instead!

Save yourself blood and sweat on the keys for all of the effort...

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#2170047 - 10/22/13 12:40 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: gvfarns]
NormB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/02/12
Posts: 45
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: Erard
In any case, it would be interesting to know exactly why (and how) they use two set of sensors, while it seem to be possible to make the whole thing work with sensors under the key only (e.g. PNOscan).


Though PNOscan is a flawed technology in that you can tap the key fast so that the hammer flies up and hits the string, but if you don't press the key all the way down, it doesn't register as a strike. Measuring velocity on the hammer seems like it would be sufficient (this is how most DP's work) but I can't think of how under-key sensors alone can do a sufficient job.

I wonder why the C3S has two sensors (four beams) under the keys. Isn't one two-beam sensor enough to measure velocity? I guess I don't understand how they are distributing the work here.


As someone who has pretty much played conventional grads their whole life I have a question about how these N3-N1 sensors work in the real world. On a 'real' grand, once the hammer has sufficient velocity it will sound a note--whether the player bottoms out the key or not. I have got into the custom of not bottoming out keys quite a lot; the notes in question of course still sound. No such luck with any digital keyboard I have played. How about these? If the 'hammer' has sufficient velocity to strike will the note sound--even if you don't bottom the key in question?


Edited by NormB (10/22/13 12:41 PM)

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#2170068 - 10/22/13 01:21 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: NormB]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2359
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: NormB
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: Erard
In any case, it would be interesting to know exactly why (and how) they use two set of sensors, while it seem to be possible to make the whole thing work with sensors under the key only (e.g. PNOscan).


Though PNOscan is a flawed technology in that you can tap the key fast so that the hammer flies up and hits the string, but if you don't press the key all the way down, it doesn't register as a strike. Measuring velocity on the hammer seems like it would be sufficient (this is how most DP's work) but I can't think of how under-key sensors alone can do a sufficient job.

I wonder why the C3S has two sensors (four beams) under the keys. Isn't one two-beam sensor enough to measure velocity? I guess I don't understand how they are distributing the work here.


As someone who has pretty much played conventional grads their whole life I have a question about how these N3-N1 sensors work in the real world. On a 'real' grand, once the hammer has sufficient velocity it will sound a note--whether the player bottoms out the key or not. I have got into the custom of not bottoming out keys quite a lot; the notes in question of course still sound. No such luck with any digital keyboard I have played. How about these? If the 'hammer' has sufficient velocity to strike will the note sound--even if you don't bottom the key in question?

I don't know about the N1-N3 but for the NU1, which uses the same technology, the answer is yes, the note will sound without bottoming out the key.

Also, I believe that this is true of many high end DP's and perhaps you have not looked enough. Maybe others will chime in.

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#2170091 - 10/22/13 02:10 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: spanishbuddha]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 742
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
I don't know about the N1-N3 but for the NU1, which uses the same technology, the answer is yes, the note will sound without bottoming out the key.

Also, I believe that this is true of many high end DP's and perhaps you have not looked enough. Maybe others will chime in.
Are you sure it's the same technology. The NU1 is a newer model with upright action. N1-N3 has been out much longer and has grand action.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2170109 - 10/22/13 02:43 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
helloworld1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/12
Posts: 82
How many sensors does N1 have? NU1 has only 1 optical sensor under the keys (A gradual semi-transparent plastic shutter that cut the beam). There is no hammer sensor.

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#2170173 - 10/22/13 05:04 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: helloworld1]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: helloworld1
How many sensors does N1 have? NU1 has only 1 optical sensor under the keys (A gradual semi-transparent plastic shutter that cut the beam). There is no hammer sensor.


You 100% sure about that? The N1 has a sensor under the keys that shines a red light and another two at the hammers. Some optical fiber stuff that creates a path that gets cut by a bit of plastic.


Edited by gvfarns (10/22/13 05:04 PM)

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#2170208 - 10/22/13 06:07 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: gvfarns]
helloworld1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/12
Posts: 82
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: helloworld1
How many sensors does N1 have? NU1 has only 1 optical sensor under the keys (A gradual semi-transparent plastic shutter that cut the beam). There is no hammer sensor.


You 100% sure about that? The N1 has a sensor under the keys that shines a red light and another two at the hammers. Some optical fiber stuff that creates a path that gets cut by a bit of plastic.


I am 95% sure that NU1 has only 1 sensors under the keys. I saw the whole actions during the repair. There are no sensors or red beam in the hammer. The only red beams are under the keky. Also the Yamaha repair tech confirms that NU1 does not have hammer sensors.

So, this means N1 also has sensor advantage over NU1.

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#2170448 - 10/23/13 04:59 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
de cajon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/13
Posts: 182
Loc: London, UK
I can confirm that there are red lights under the keys of a Yamaha CX SH. As noted above, they shine though a graduated-transparency plastic shuter that gradually cuts the beam.

(However, with an SH action there are also hammer sensors. Both are described here . (You will probably need to click the Features tab.))
_________________________
Yamaha C3X SH

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