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#1896281 - 05/13/12 04:58 PM As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88

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#1896294 - 05/13/12 05:21 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
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Loc: Oakland
You have way too much time on your hands!
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#1896296 - 05/13/12 05:26 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: BDB]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: BDB
You have way too much time on your hands!


Thank You!

Give me more and more wrong: it proves I'm right.

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#1896298 - 05/13/12 05:28 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
BDB Online   content
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No, it proves that you do not know which end of the piano to play!
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#1896300 - 05/13/12 05:30 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Excuse me, but have I asked you something?

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#1896301 - 05/13/12 05:30 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
accordeur Online   content
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Loc: Québec, Canada
The blow distance is all over the place.
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#1896304 - 05/13/12 05:34 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: accordeur]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: accordeur
The blow distance is all over the place.


The technician said: "sorry, but I've never seen something like this in my life".

The strange aspect is that the friend of mine keyboard has the same problem on the same piano, they have just sawn better the wood .

This could only means that the factory have made wrong a complete stock of keyboards and "improvised" to make them work "the least worst".

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#1896306 - 05/13/12 05:36 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
accordeur Online   content
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
You are completely wrong. There is nothing wrong with that action. Really.
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Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#1896310 - 05/13/12 05:43 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
It's just your opinion. (and without reading carefully what I 've said)

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#1896313 - 05/13/12 05:45 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
BDB Online   content
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Well, yes there is something wrong with it. The action has a unbalanced owner and an inept technician.
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#1896314 - 05/13/12 05:46 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: BDB]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: BDB
Well, yes there is something wrong with it. The action has a unbalanced owner and an inept technician.


No, I just put my hand on it to take the picture: the position was quite uncomfortable!

Think before speaking.

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#1896316 - 05/13/12 05:48 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Online   content
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Dave:

Please allow me one quick question:

Brodmann has offered you on 2 separate occasions to send a company appointed technician to inspect the piano for you.
To best of my knowledge this was a tech directly from Vienna.

Why have you turned down these offers on both occasions?

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (05/13/12 05:50 PM)
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#1896319 - 05/13/12 05:53 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
It's very simple and quick:

- the first time I was very disappointed by the OFFICIAL distributor broken promises (of months):
I felt the factory offer just teasing

- the second time I said Yes, but no one have come. They said after "When he will be in Italy", not "We send you a technician".

I repeat: I'm nobody's fool.


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#1896344 - 05/13/12 07:25 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
I would like to clear up that:

- I've posted the picture with friendly/sharing intentions (not to prove something)

- I've nothing against the brand: I could sell my piano without problems at any time, but I don't

- I think they are superbly made and wrongly underrated pianos (that's why I bought it)

- I never write the brand name because I respect it (It's just some forumer behavior that makes hard feelings)

- it was not the End of the world: just a problem on a stupid piano keyboard

- Any factory gives replacement keyboard: it's normal

- The factory promised the keyboard: I was happy

- But no keyboard have come yet

- I'm in trouble

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#1896358 - 05/13/12 08:17 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Due to the unexpected hard feelings happened here in the forum, I've forgotten from the start perhaps the most important things:


- the first ("famous" and very costly) technician I called, re-worked the keyboard in a so bad way that now it's simply worse than new

(surely was in need just a tuning intervention, but I waited for months and months and I was tired of waiting so I called a top technician by myself without asking nothing to other)


- I have denied the first factory offer also because they could not restore 15 days of laboratory work in a day or two

(If I have accepted, it would be not only vain, but also disrespectful in regard of the factory)


- But in "bona fide" I thought: "I've made the error: I pay for it"


- The request of a new price-charged keyboard was in my opinion the best way to not disturb anyone, just simple and quick.


You perhaps can finally see now that I'm just a student who can go wrong with words, but my feelings and intentions have ever been polite.


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#1896379 - 05/13/12 08:46 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Online   content
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Quote:
- The request of a new price-charged keyboard was in my opinion the best way to not disturb anyone, just simple and quick.


Dave:

Your 'request' was in fact a custom order for an upgraded new Kluge keyboard, correct?

The price for this was to be Euro 2000, correct?

Norbert
_________________________
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1896380 - 05/13/12 08:47 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Norbert]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
- The request of a new price-charged keyboard was in my opinion the best way to not disturb anyone, just simple and quick.


Dave:

Your 'request' was in fact a custom order for an upgraded new Kluge keyboard, correct?

The price for this was to be Euro 2000, correct?

Norbert


Upgrade? Please, read my last message above: it answers to your question clearly.


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#1896383 - 05/13/12 08:54 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
The factory CEO has never spoken about price (just said "we pay the keyboards 700-800 euro normally) and he has been the first person who said me "kluge".

Apart from that, I cannot know and I cannot be responsible of the kind of requests/words/agreements the dealer asked to the factory in the period in which I was waiting without having direct contacts with the factory.

I have written to the factory very later about problems.

I have send just an e-mail to the factory before all the problems just to say "Thank you, your pianos are very beautiful and I'm very happy".

CEO answered "Thank you, you are welcome" and the matter ended there.

Only after the delivery the problems and the broken promises happened.

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#1896391 - 05/13/12 09:11 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Online   content
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It was a German made Kluge keyboard you ordered?

Norbert
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www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1896395 - 05/13/12 09:14 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
It's all complex, but I think that my intentions are quite clear now.

Perhaps the dealer (a very particular person who speaks a lot like a machine gun) said a lot of absurd things to the factory. I don't know.

I just remember that one time he said me: "A brodmann owner of a Brodmann of mine has a new renner action and it's great"...

Now that you have said "Upgrade" or "2000 euro", I'm starting to thing that in this matter there is much more the hand of the dealer than I have suppose...

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#1896397 - 05/13/12 09:17 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/01
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Dave:

All I'm asking is if there was an arrangement made to get a new keyboard. The keyboard was to be made by Kluge in Germany and your cost was to be Euro 2000,00

This was agreed between you and Brodmann.

Is this correct?

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1896403 - 05/13/12 09:24 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Norbert]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Dave:

All I'm asking is if there was an arrangement made to get a new keyboard. The keyboard was to be made by Kluge in Germany and your cost was to be Euro 2000,00

This was agreed between you and Brodmann.

Is this correct?

Norbert


No, Norbert, it isn't.

When I have written by my hand to the factory, I have asked for a "replacement keyboard", without mentioning a particular keyboard factory brand (perhaps the dealer made that, but I don't) and without knowing whether it was possible.

And I remember that I have been surprised (not in the sense of "happy") when the CEO said: "We usually use Kluge keyboards and we pay 700-800 Euro for it" because Kluge it's not only for Artist series, but also I haven't asked for it directly.

I could suppose now that it's the dealer that has made some "messes" behind me, not the factory.

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#1896407 - 05/13/12 09:32 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
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Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
It was honestly incredible to me that a fine person like the factory CEO could made broken promises.

And now it all going to add up: the dealer has made perhaps a lot of strange things or requests in my name to the factory (it's in his own "style") making a great mess.


Frankly: whatever keyboard the factory could give me, I would be grateful.

I just want an un-reworked keyboard because those technicians "killed" my grand piano keyboard saying that it was cheap, bad worked and practically useless.



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#1896409 - 05/13/12 09:42 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
The factory chief technician last e-mail of March proves that we had not yet talked about price or anything else:

Dear Davide,

Christian has forwarded me your mail.

Don't worry we haven't forgotten you! Your keyboard has been ordered and I spoke with Kluge last week
at Frankfurt. They are working flat out at the moment and have some back orders to get through before they
can do yours, so we must be patient a while longer.

As soon as I have more details, like the final price including shipping, then I will send them to you.

Where would you like the keyboard sent to? Please let me know the shipping address and a telephone number
as well please.

I will keep in touch and let you know more soon.

With best regards,

Colin.



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#1896420 - 05/13/12 10:06 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
It's very simple and quick:

- the first time I was very disappointed by the OFFICIAL distributor broken promises (of months):
I felt the factory offer just teasing

- the second time I said Yes, but no one have come. They said after "When he will be in Italy", not "We send you a technician".

I repeat: I'm nobody's fool.


Hi Dave,

Nobody is calling you a fool. I would think that Brodmann should have sent a tech out by now. That seems to be a big disappointment. Maybe Norbert can get the guy to come quicker?

It just seems absurd that if you've had a faulty keyboard and maybe other issues, that no one can help you if the local distributor is not useful.

What else can be done?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1896422 - 05/13/12 10:08 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Norbert]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Dave:

All I'm asking is if there was an arrangement made to get a new keyboard. The keyboard was to be made by Kluge in Germany and your cost was to be Euro 2000,00

This was agreed between you and Brodmann.

Is this correct?

Norbert


Norbert, is this normal? Why can't his keyboard be replaced if it was faulty, even after he tried to get a number of techs to fix it? Is Brodmann unaware of the problem somehow? Or is it that since the other techs got involved they (Brodmann) feel that they are no longer responsible?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1896423 - 05/13/12 10:11 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Online   content
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Dave said this:

Quote:
- the first ("famous" and very costly) technician I called, re-worked the keyboard in a so bad way that now it's simply worse than new


Did Brodmann accept this "worse than new" keyboard replacement request from you as a warranty claim?

Why then was there mentioning of a price to you at all?

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (05/13/12 10:23 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1896428 - 05/13/12 10:20 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Norbert]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Norbert
What I don't understand is why Dave had earlier agreed to pay anything for a keyboard that was not the same as in his piano.

How did this come about?

Norbert




Because I EVER WANTED FOR AN ORIGINAL KEYBOARD FOR MY GRAND PIANO.

(HOW can I say something if you understand something else?)

PLEASE: read again my words above and after (if possibile, if you want, if you can) try to help me because I'm desperate.

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#1896431 - 05/13/12 10:27 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/01
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Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
(HOW can I say something if you understand something else ever?)


Because the accounts given to me what really happened here are very different from yours.

Obviously one needs to hear from those directly involved in the conversations that were going on between all parties - you're only being the one part.

Regretfully I can't help in this case any longer.

God knows I tried....

Norbert frown


Edited by Norbert (05/13/12 10:28 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1896432 - 05/13/12 10:27 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Norbert]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Dave said this:

Quote:
- the first ("famous" and very costly) technician I called, re-worked the keyboard in a so bad way that now it's simply worse than new


Did Brodmann accept this "worse than new" keyboard replacement request as a warranty claim? Why then was there mentioning of a price to you?

Norbert


Because I ASKED PERSONALLY TO PAY THE NEW KEYBOARD FOR A MATTER OF RESPECT, FOR PREVENTING THE DANGER OF BEING REGARDED AS A NUISANCE (they are very busy people) AND REMOVE THE POSSIBILITY OF MORE WASTING OF TIME.

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#1896437 - 05/13/12 10:34 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Norbert]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
(HOW can I say something if you understand something else ever?)


Because the accounts given to me what really happened here are very different from yours.

Obviously one needs to hear from those directly involved in the conversations that were going on between all parties - you're only being the one part.

Regretfully I can't help in this case any longer.

God knows I tried....

Norbert frown


Today the scenery is totally different (At least to me) and I see your reasons (but only now I can do this).

I understand also why the other accounts have ever been so different from mine: they are busy people and the dealer words and the mine have become the same voice for the factory, even if they were very different.


So, the parts involved have been 3: the factory, the dealer and I. Have you listened to all three? The dealer part lacks obviously... (and I cannot be responsible of his words, but only of mine: it's legally a fact)

Well, anyway... if even after a quite complete clarification (or "revolution") as the one of today, nothing can be done as well, I swear I'll jump from the bridge

(With my grand piano) smile



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#1896446 - 05/13/12 10:52 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
P.S.

Regardless of the parts involved, the e-mail of Mr.Taylor proves that there has no have been any agreement yet on the price. This fact suggests that there is still confusion somewhere, perhaps in the factory memories. It's understandable.


I could consult a lawyer: I'm in the right.


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#1896454 - 05/13/12 11:18 PM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
P.S. 2)

If the factory has said me "2000 euro" for the keyboard, I would say "no, thanks, doesn't matter", because in Italy it costs the same, even something less (1650 euro to be precise and for a correct designed one).

Yes, I asked to pay, but I expected to pay for a "trade price" (the "700-800 euro" that Mr. Hoferl said me for example).

You see, I thought it was honest: I don't ask You a warranty support (no price-charge), but as the factory pays it (naturally with shipping and other "disturbs"...).

So there's definetely something wrong in the accounts they have reported.

Good evening.

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#1896465 - 05/13/12 11:45 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
BDB Online   content
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Registered: 06/07/03
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We should be clear about this. There is nothing wrong with the keyboard in the photograph. Even with carefully dried wood, there can be stresses that can cause the keys to deform a bit after they are cut apart. The tolerances in manufacture account for this, and for changes in humidity that can cause the wood to move later. The key pins keep the surface of the keys in the proper relation to one another in the front where it matters. There can be more variation in the back, where it does not. The problem is not with the keys, it is with the person worrying about them.
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#1896468 - 05/13/12 11:51 PM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: BDB]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: BDB
We should be clear about this. There is nothing wrong with the keyboard in the photograph. Even with carefully dried wood, there can be stresses that can cause the keys to deform a bit after they are cut apart. The tolerances in manufacture account for this, and for changes in humidity that can cause the wood to move later. The key pins keep the surface of the keys in the proper relation to one another in the front where it matters. There can be more variation in the back, where it does not. The problem is not with the keys, it is with the person worrying about them.


(You read what you like to read)

I kindly ask the Moderators to do something.

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#1896475 - 05/14/12 12:05 AM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Anyway.

I see that a (legally warnered) distributor has gone "ahead" and told strange things and requests to the factory. I foresaw it: when I told the factory how the dealer delivered me the piano (an adventure) and at what price, they have grown cold.

So the dealer has tried everything possible to misrepresent me and unfortunately the factory believed him.

However I'm son of a quite respected family (and we are all uncensored, the dealer are not) and I don't care anymore. My father will buy a new keyboard for my birthday.


I'm just disappointed. A year to know that kind of things. It's just shocking.


Accordingly, if necessary it will be a pleasure to speak about the matter in court.



To me this topic can be closed, good evening you.


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#1896481 - 05/14/12 12:16 AM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
AJF Offline
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Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1655
Loc: Toronto
BDB may be terse in his responses but if YOU Davehammerklavier take the time to READ what BDB is saying (in the THOUSANDS of posts on this forum) you'll see that he quite often knows what he's talking about. What would you like the moderators to do? You're the one 'swearing' you'll 'jump from the bridge'--maybe the moderators should direct you to a forum that helps people who are emotionally unstable?
_________________________

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#1896483 - 05/14/12 12:17 AM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: AJF]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: AJF
BDB may be terse in his responses but if YOU Davehammerklavier take the time to READ what BDB is saying (in the THOUSANDS of posts on this forum) you'll see that he quite often knows what he's talking about. What would you like the moderators to do? You're the one 'swearing' you'll 'jump from the bridge'--maybe the moderators should direct you to a forum that helps people who are emotionally unstable?


You're wrong. I was just playing down...

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#1896485 - 05/14/12 12:19 AM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
(As above: don't worry!

the matter is finally clear: that was my first target.

I'm not interested in the keyboard anymore).


Thanks, best wishes you


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#1896495 - 05/14/12 12:39 AM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: AJF]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: AJF
BDB may be terse in his responses but if YOU Davehammerklavier take the time to READ what BDB is saying (in the THOUSANDS of posts on this forum) you'll see that he quite often knows what he's talking about. What would you like the moderators to do? You're the one 'swearing' you'll 'jump from the bridge'--maybe the moderators should direct you to a forum that helps people who are emotionally unstable?


I often disagree with BDB, but not in this instance. There's nothing evident in that picture that would warrant an entire new keyboard.
_________________________
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
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#1896514 - 05/14/12 02:04 AM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: beethoven986]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: AJF
BDB may be terse in his responses but if YOU Davehammerklavier take the time to READ what BDB is saying (in the THOUSANDS of posts on this forum) you'll see that he quite often knows what he's talking about. What would you like the moderators to do? You're the one 'swearing' you'll 'jump from the bridge'--maybe the moderators should direct you to a forum that helps people who are emotionally unstable?


I often disagree with BDB, but not in this instance. There's nothing evident in that picture that would warrant an entire new keyboard.


I have said that registered technicians spoiled the keyboard after!

How have I to say this to make it undestood?

Not realizing anything, You are mystifying everything.


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#1896517 - 05/14/12 02:13 AM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: AJF
BDB may be terse in his responses but if YOU Davehammerklavier take the time to READ what BDB is saying (in the THOUSANDS of posts on this forum) you'll see that he quite often knows what he's talking about. What would you like the moderators to do? You're the one 'swearing' you'll 'jump from the bridge'--maybe the moderators should direct you to a forum that helps people who are emotionally unstable?


I often disagree with BDB, but not in this instance. There's nothing evident in that picture that would warrant an entire new keyboard.


I have said that registered technicians spoiled the keyboard after!

How have I to say this to make it undestood?

Not realizing anything, You are mystifying everything.



Photographic evidence would be nice. If a technician "spoiled" your keyboard to the point that it needs to be replaced, it is not evident in the picture you provided. Personally, I find it hard to believe that such extensive damage could have been done. Individual parts, sure, but not an entire keyboard. To merit replacing an entire keyboard, there would need to be irreversible and extensive damage. If you have more concrete proof, we're all happy to help, but if not, there's no point all of us wasting our time.
_________________________
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#1896523 - 05/14/12 02:23 AM Re: Don't say it's normal... [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
This is a pure mystification and some very courtesy forumers (knowing that I'm in the right) advised me to stop to waste time with You.

Don't worry. I stop here.

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#1896565 - 05/14/12 07:05 AM Re: As promised... Keyboard pictures and clarifications [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2278
Loc: Pennsylvania
No, it stops HERE.
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