Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Good PA System for jazz piano combo gigs

Hello,

I've got a Yamaha P-95, which has a pretty good piano sound (especially compared to other keyboards in its price range). Trouble is, this digital piano, along with every digital piano, sounds like crap when played through a keyboard amplifier (or any amplifier for that matter). (I use a Roland KC-300.) The luxurious sound that I hear on headphones comes out sounding tinny and cheap during a performance situation.

This is particularly problematic when comping cords in the octave immediately below middle C. I've actually screwed myself in performance situations because I rehearse pieces on my Yamaha grand piano at home, and then when I get to a performance, those chords just below middle C sound too muddy on an electronic keyboard when running through an amplifier, and I have to shift the chords around on the keyboard to other registers.

Because my amplified accostic piano patch sounds bad when I turn up, I either tend to favor the electric piano patches (which sound fine, or at least good enough), or I turn down the volume if I switch to acoustic piano. But then no one can hear me.

(Note, I'm the piano player in a seven-piece jazz band: trumpet, sax, guitar, bass, drums and congas.)

If the quality of the P-95 is the culprit, I'm fine looking into any number of the virtual piano software packages (such as Ivory II).

However, I've seen a lot of discussion about this topic all over the Web, and it seems to boil down to two solutions -- decent powered monitor speakers for in-home practicing, and a PA System for performances.

For at-home practicing, I play on a real grand piano (Yamaha Model C3), so in my particular case powered monitor speakers aren't necessary. So really I'd like the discussion on this thread to focus on suggestions and thoughts about PA systems that will make the piano sound good during a gig, the way it sounds through headphones or through studio monitors.

We typically play low-key outdoor summer venues such as block parties and a small outdoor cafe. We also play some inside gigs such as bars/restaurants.

When I was in guitar center the other day, the guy said I really should get *two* PA speakers because of the whole thing about digital pianos sound better in stereo. But then he didn't have two of the same ones in stock (which seems nuts), and picked out one that was around $500, plugged it into my model of piano, and it had that telltale muddy sound that I'm used to hearing out of my KC-300 amp. No difference! I came away confused and dejected. I did perk up at some of the studio monitor speakers he had, and he was going to investigate the use of some of these for performance situations, but from the posts I've read, that's a bad idea--though they have the accuracy, they simply lack the volume.

One final requirement--I'm 45 years old. Being no spring chicken, I don't want to lug 100 lbs of gear to and from gigs. I'm intrigued by the class of portable PA systems that seems to exist in the $700 to $1000 price range, specifically:

JBL EON 210P
Yamaha Stagepas 300
Fender Audio Passport 300 Pro
Bose L1

So the question is, is it possible to get good piano sound (without the tinniness) in a gigging situation playing with the band using some of the systems above (in a price range of around $800 to $1200)? What are your thoughts on the above systems, does anyone have experience hearing how the above-named PA systems sound with piano? Or do I need to spend more than $1200, and if so, how much and what systems? I'm also intrigued with the Bose L1, though I suspect I'd need two of them, which puts it over my price range (would like to keep it under $1,000 if possible). Also note I'm not super concerned about bass response since I usually back off on the bass EQ anyway on my amp since we have a bass player.

A final question concerns recording. We record our gigs using a Tascam DR-2D, but the piano sounds REALLY bad--super tinny. I'm intrigued with the idea of running everything through the PA system's mixer, and then running a line out of the mixer and into the DR-2D digital recorder to preserve that piano sound. But I know recording is tricky, because that means mixing drums, etc. Thoughts on this? (In other words, trying to kill two birds with one sound, getting the piano to sound good on gigs as well as recordings of those gigs.)

Hoping to stimulate some decent discussion here, I'm kinda in the dark!

Try an ElectroVoice ZXa1. It's lightweight and more neutral sounding than most low cost PA gear. Your budget will accommodate a pair, though I think stereo is rarely much of an advantage in live band gigging, and can even be a detriment.

If you need more volume than you can get out of the ZXa1, I'd look at the JBL PRX series rather than the Eon.

dcn2000,
The only output on your P95 is the stereo headphone 1/4" jack. Don't know how you are connecting to your amp, but this can cause degraded sound from a stereo DP sample. You might want to look at this thread:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1889862/DP/Keyboard%20TRS%20out,%20phase%20can.html#Post1889862

Also, try the brighter, second piano voice on your P95, it may work better into a mono PA in a band situation.

I am using a cable that separates the stereo into left and right individual signals, that go into left and right channels of my amp.

As far as the electrovoice, doesn't it need some sort of amp or mixer....and as far as just using one speaker, what about the notion -- described by Bob M -- that the sounds are stereo samples?

Getting a good live sound without a lot of hassle is an ongoing problem for a lot of us. As far as I'm concerned, it HAS to be stereo because there's usually different placement in the stereo L/R spectrum from note to note, and because the onboard reverb sounds dull and lifeless in mono. Stereo provides a 'soundstage' that has depth.

Choice of speakers I can't help with. One thing that has helped me in the past is having a keyboard with internal speakers that don't turn off when you plug in an amplifier. Then the internal speaker sounds can be mixed with the amp sounds, and up to a certain volume this can sound pretty good. A Yamaha P155 I believe does this, but I don't think the P95 does.

JBL Eon 510's work very well for me.

On the P-95 and stereo splitter out of the headphone jack sounded great.
I just had to lessen the low EQ in the left speaker and I was good to go.

The JBL has a low cut switch on the back.

I do get tired of writing this, but will do so again.

Whatever you decide for your sound system, be sure that your CDs or mp3s also sound excellent through it. In addition to supplying audio support for your keyboard, you can supply the sound system for the rest of the band ... and ask more money for that service.

If you bring along a great sounding system, everyone will want to plug their mic (or guitar jack) into it.

I've learned my lesson decades ago with sound systems - buy much more than you need and spend much more than you planned and you'll have a system that might just outlast you.

Also, I find it a shame when guys spend money on speaker systems but don't protect them in transit. Consider buying cases or at the very least, covers to protect your investment. It doesn't hurt to have at least one extra cable of each cable you use.

If you go stereo, where are the speakers going to go? If they are both near you (a few feet apart), you'll get stereo, and the people close to the stage on your side will hear it, but most of the audience will be too far back or too off to one side to get much of a stereo effect, if any. If you place the speakers at the left and right sides of the stage, it will sound good to people in the center, but for the portion of the audience who is much closer to one speaker than the other (perhaps even on the far side of one of the speakers), they will get a worse quality sound than if you just used mono, as they will basically be hearing half of the stereo sound.

All that assumed that the audience is hearing you from your own speaker(s). If you're using your speaker(s) for stage monitoring, and feeding your piano to a separate PA system for the house, that opens up even a bigger can of worms.

I have been scratching my head on the same question. I have not had a chance to test drive the EV ZXA1's yet, but I seen a number of positive posts on this forum about them. I have been thinking that I would like to eventually end up with a stereo pair and a small 4-channel mixer for $100.

I have been thinking about the Bose system too. It's a bit of a problem. First of all, I can't seem to find a sales rep who really understands the difference between his A%$ and his elbow. Second, I can't help thinking that I am paying way too much for them due to the name.

Let us know what you ended up with and how you like it.

So I spoke with a good friend who also plays a digital piano in stage performances. He recommended this setup:

QSC K12 speakers (12")
Yamaha MG102c mixer

Very accurate sound and great for piano.

I'm going to check it out. He uses two.

The K12's are a bit heavy for my taste (41 lb each), but QSC makes K10 (10") and K8 (8") -- all are 1,000 watt, but lighter (32 lb and 27 lb respectively.)

They also seem to have good reviews.

DCN2000,

Running both L & R into the mono, 100 Watt KC300 is the problem. Choose one side or the other, then EQ it to sound best. Also listen to that brighter, 2nd grand piano voice in the P95 with your headphones. I think you will find that it seems more centered, less stereo separation. It may work better into your mono amp.

Of COURSE stereo will sound best to you, but not to a large audience, as Anotherscott points out above. In a small venue, two powered speakers, such as the EV zxa1, would probably make you happiest. madAhorn likes his (2) JBL Eon 510's (280 watts each, by the way). We have these for use with the Roland FP-5 at my church. Note that both of these are powered PA speakers, now preferred over keyboard amps by most players because they sound cleaner.

I guess there is no way to say this gently.... but most pros who post on this board and on Keyboard Corner would not touch a Roland keyboard amp like the KC 300. A quote, "the only thing I would run thru a Roland amp would be a chain saw".

With a small mixer (preferably with sweepable mid EQ) and decent PA speakers (stereo), you should be good to go. The QSC get great press - but please be aware that they are often almost inaudible, if you have to sit slightly to the rear of them. Our band uses a pair of K12s for smaller gigs and that aspect is very noticeable. But FOH, they sound great.

I have found that Mackie SRM speakers tend to be a little less colored than JBLs. JBLs tend to sound warmer and less harsh. However, if your P95 is sounding muddy, the JBLs could possibly accentuate that. I've not tried the EVs but have heard from various sources that they are very nice for a lower-powered speaker.

I would mention (once again) that I'm quite pleased with my compromise Roland SA300 system for keyboard monitoring and mains at smaller venues, but it appears to be Roland amp bashing day, so maybe I shouldn't!

However, I have never liked ANY Roland KC amps.

A note on stereo. Although positioning is problematic from an audience standpoint, it is really much better to run stereo if you can (even if you have to stick the speakers almost next to each other) for two main reasons. The first is that many of today's DPs sound bad - and I mean BAD - running in mono, with the exception of Nords. The second is that you'll play better and enjoy yourself more if you're getting the full signal from your DP - and not just half the signal, with the attendant problem of an unbalanced sound that favors either the bass or the treble range, or a summed signal that can turn thin and "phasey."

I listened to the QSC K8 vs the EV ZXa1... the QSC plays noticeably louder, but the EV sounds better, more neutral, especially for piano. From what I've seen, everyone else who has A/B'd the two has come to the same conclusion.

Since the K10 and K12 are supposed to sound very much like a K8 but with more bass and more volume, I expect the comparison would hold true there as well.

As for the comment about the sound of JBLs, it would help to know which series was being auditioned. I think the PRX sound a lot more natural than the Eons I've heard (though I haven't heard the newest Eons).

.

Thanks to everyone who has participated on this thread so far. It's super helpful. So some comments:

- Regarding my Roland KC-300 sounding like crap: No offense taken here, I knew it sounded like crap on the day I bought it, just like all the Roland keyboard amps, or all the amps i've used as keyboard amps, in the last 30 years. Hence the move to a PA system.

- The Electro-Voice ZXA1 seems to be recurring again and again in this and other threads. I tried to find it on Sweetwater's site, couldn't (do they not carry it? I'll ask my rep), but found it on Musician's friend (Electro-Voice ZXA1-90 Powered PA Speaker Black) -- it seems much cheaper ($500) than the QSC's, do we know what the wattage is? is the powered or unpowered version recommended?

-Dave Ferris, thanks for the input about the whole band going through the PA. And as far as the Radial Duplex Stero DI, what the heck is that and how does that improve the sound of the piano?

- Sounds like consensus is buy two PA speakers to get the most out of the stereo sample. Position them behind me, centered, at the back of the stage, at about 6 ft apart? Not at opposite extremes of the stage, right? (I usually am placed all the way to one side).

The specs are on the companies' web sites, but knowing the wattage of the ZXa1 and K8 is about as relevant to this decision as knowing the expiration date of the milk in your refrigerator. Wattage would be a useful spec if you could use the same amp to drive different speakers. Since these amps can only drive their own speakers, the spec is pointless.

A 50 watt amp can easily be much louder than a 100 watt amp, if it is tied to a more efficient speaker. So if you can't alter the speaker, knowing whether an amp is 50 or 100 watts tells you absolutely nothing about how loud the unit will play.

If that wasn't enough, these models happen to use stereo amps to drive the low and high frequency drivers with the same power, presumably due to some cost advantage in manufacturing, but HF never demands the same power as LF. This allows QSC, for example, to say they have a 1000 watt unit, because it has a 500 watt amp for the bass driver and another 500 watt amp for the horn... but the horn will probably never demand so much as 100 watts even at its peak. The extra 400 watts likely do absolutely nothing for the QSC except allow them to call it a 1000 watt box. The same is true of the EV's800 watt box, which uses dual 400 watt amplification.

Dave Ferris-I am very curious about the Radial Duplex Stereo DI you are using--I have been wondering and considering getting one of these but was not sure exactly what it would do for my MP 10 sound and any other benefits it would provide-

Could you explain what it is doing for the Piano's sound and anything else it may be doing overall in your chain?

In advance.......

Thanks & Great Day

Jack

.

Dave, perhaps you could prepare recordings of the Nord's direct sound and the sound produced by the extra equipment for comparison?

Cheers,
James
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