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#1895698 - 05/12/12 10:23 AM Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 646
for those nuclear musical scientists out there, I'm thrilled to submit this new advanced class on playing outside the changes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVUj-a29mzI

Thank you all for your kind messages, and not-so kind messages:)

Blessings and keep swingin

Your pal

Dave Frank



Edited by davefrank (05/12/12 10:25 AM)

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Piano & Music Accessories
#1895731 - 05/12/12 11:52 AM Re: Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: davefrank]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
See you next year!

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#1897701 - 05/16/12 01:53 AM Re: Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: davefrank]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
What wonderfully inventive stuff, Mr. Frank! You have another winner here.

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1899015 - 05/18/12 04:16 AM Re: Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: davefrank]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Hi Dave,

Thanks so much for posting the lesson. I feel like one of the biggest problem with playing outside is using it in such a way that it's actually musical. I've noticed that a lot of people(myself included) have learned about outside playing from our teachers and/or from transcribing, but I feel like most of us struggle to use them in such a way that it's musically meaningful... For me the effort to play outside too contrived or forced. I also feel the same way about playing polyrhythms too.

I am saying this as someone who has probably done over 400+ pages of transcription in my lifetime and spent considerable time learning many solos note by note. It's one thing to learn the concept, but being able to do them and own these concept as yours seems like something else. For me it doesn't seem like learning any more concepts or transcribing will change the fact that I am not satisfied with how I play these ideas.

I guess my question is, what did it take your for these things to be your own musical language, rather than some concept you are trying to execute, and feeling like it's not really working like you intended?

Edit: Btw here are some superimpositions I use on F Blues

First four Bars

F-Locrian
F7sus Eb7sus|Db7sus B7sus|
F7sus Ab7sus|F#min7 B7sus|

Last 8 bars

Gmin7|Bb-7 Eb7|Dbmin7 F#7|Gmin7 C7
Gmin7|Bb-7 Eb7|Abmin7 Db7|Amin7 D7|


Edited by etcetra (05/18/12 04:40 AM)

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#1899227 - 05/18/12 12:47 PM Re: Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: etcetra]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 646
It took 6 months behind bars (pun) at the Iowa Correctional Facility for Women.

Playing outside seems to work best I notice as a question of WHEN to go into it. That little guy in your head will give you the signal, after usually improvising normally for awhile, to head outside and play. If I catch the signal correctly, it seems to fit at that point..almost any outside system should work theoretically, and then you get the signal to go back inside..

DF

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#1899394 - 05/18/12 05:32 PM Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: etcetra]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
I would not presume to answer any question directed to Mr. Frank, but here is another observation, for whatever it might be worth:
One can "get away with" playing outside the chords more gracefully if the actual underlying harmonies are not as complex. Indeed, someone like Tyner makes great use of the technique where the basic chord changes are a little more static, to add additional interest.

This is one reason why a BASIC 12-bar blues seems an excellent place to learn the technique. I have a feeling if one is also adding complex alternate chords at the same time, we are going to lose "home base".
Ed

_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1899664 - 05/19/12 01:36 AM Re: Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: davefrank]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: davefrank
It took 6 months behind bars (pun) at the Iowa Correctional Facility for Women.

Playing outside seems to work best I notice as a question of WHEN to go into it. That little guy in your head will give you the signal, after usually improvising normally for awhile, to head outside and play. If I catch the signal correctly, it seems to fit at that point..almost any outside system should work theoretically, and then you get the signal to go back inside..

DF


Dave, thanks for the feedback. I think you have a great point. I do agree that it works best when it's spontaneous and the little guy in your head is telling you to go there naturally. It doesn't work so well when you force it to happen. I think part of the problem for me is becoming too excited/overly tense mentally.. I go too far and miss my signal to go back.

I guess it all comes down to doing(screwing up) enough on gigs until you can do it more fluently smile

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#1967860 - 10/02/12 05:18 PM Re: Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: davefrank]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
Dave,

I want to ask about those (block) chord clusters you played during uour Lennie Tristano workshop video. You plaid chord clusters over "What Is This Thing Called Love"
It sounds to me that you are usually playing 4 note close voicings. For example on the G-7b5 with a Db in the melody, you play the following chord tones F G Bb Db .
And when the the melody is a tension note (11,9 ,13) you still play the bottom 3 notes notes using G-7b5 chord tones rather than a diminished voicing like George Shearing would.
Am I correct?

Thank
rtc

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#1967868 - 10/02/12 05:32 PM Re: Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: davefrank]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 646
yes. Shearing would use the diminished on the non-chord melody notes, it's also possible to play the bottom notes of the basic 7th/voicing and futz around with the melodies/tensions based on what sounds good. Using the basic 7th tones /basic inversions is a good place to start. A good exercise is to take 4 meas. of a tune and try out as many possible combinations of melodies/chord clusters as you can think of, without playing in time. The top note/melody leads the thing.

DF

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#1967898 - 10/02/12 06:45 PM Re: Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: davefrank]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
Thanks again, Dave.

Which way were you doing it in the video over "What Is This Thing Called Love"

Were you moving the top note over the basic chord tones or were you alternating between the chord tone voicings and dim 7th vocings?

The "Shearing" method sounds more old fashioned to me.


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#1967905 - 10/02/12 07:01 PM Re: Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: davefrank]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
the first few minutes reminded me of nelson riddle's route 66 tv theme.. smile

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#1967936 - 10/02/12 08:18 PM Re: Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: Bob Newbie]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 646
exactly, I agree, the diminished thing is a bit old fashioned..

DF

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#1968016 - 10/02/12 10:58 PM Re: Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: davefrank]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Thanks again, Dave. Out to the woodshed!
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1968033 - 10/02/12 11:21 PM Re: Playing Outside the Changes - Dave Frank new master class [Re: davefrank]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 646
you and me both

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