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Robert, I wonder if a light sanding on the outside of the copper winding with an 800 grit would have the same effect on a longer winding as just shortening it. I remember a tech years ago who got a poorly made replacement bass string to match better doing this. Personally, I'd be worried about the tiny particles clogging up the coils or something bad like that coming out of it.

A443, your method seems reasonable and I too look at how the strings fit in with the octave. I presume another real issue would arise if an ETD user were to blindly match a target partial with errant inharmonicity, and then waste time trying to compensate the good unison to it. Determining which string is the best fit to begin with in this case would be the first order.

Yes for the octave. Indeed badly matched bass strings are a pain.

You can massage the termination so to raise the level of fundamental, needle the hammer on the side it raise that partial,so to dampen it more, change the shape if necessary.

The problem is generally that the energy of the 2 strings hardly can match the one of the neighbors.

I usually send back the 2 strings to the bass winder, and he send me 2 new strings for free, as this is supposed not to happen with a decent winding job (I ask my basses at Hellerbass and dont recall any matching problem so this is attainable, even if it happened that a slight difference occur in the end of the wrapping (1 2 mm difference and really not often, can be due to my measurements too) There is a goal on the distance from bridge and distance from agrafe once the wire is tuned and at pitch (the numbers escapes me but I seem to recall it is 8 mm and 25 mm, I will put exacts numbers asap)

Well it does not help much. What I think is that once the energy regulation focus on the fundamental (or the 2nd partial) its energy tend to "straighten" the rest of the spectra, so in those situations I focus mainly on the way the energy is felt and heard from note to note, hoping that the mismatch will stay unnoticed....

A solution can be to make the neighboring notes "turn" a tad in the same way than the bad one... I dont like that one but that is the same as working with old wire and so so hammer mating, where adding a decoupling between left center and right plain wire gives opportunity to even the tone from note to note, adsorbing the defects and hiding them in the coupling.

Tuning historical instruments is often the same process, no purity availeable, forget about hearing the tone in front of the piano and try to hear what happens a few meters from there..

@Kamin
It is so refreshing to read technicians, like yourself, who are clearly driven to make improvements with the piano--wherever possible. You should be applauded for your ability to keep an open mind with your own work, and the work of others; that is awesome!

Point 1: if you can't fix it, blend it!
For some reason, I have always blended the offending string(s) the best I can with the unison and octave, but never thought about also blend this "inevitable irregularity" with the neighboring notes. This is an excellent point; I like this a lot. By ever so slightly blending the offending unison with the neighboring notes, it certainly would help mask the starkness of the offending unison. That is a great observation.

Point 2: unfit the offending string.
Kamin, I'm not sure if you meant to imply that you will sometimes unfit/unmate a unison that has an offending string, but if that is what you meant, then that is absolutely genius!!! This is something that I absolutely will play around with some more. I'm normally concerned with adjusting the hammers to get a perfect fit, but when confronted with a situation where one string is presenting unison tuning issues, perhaps a slight altering of the hammer fitting could produce a helpful result...

Thank you for the flowers !!

Blend is nice (as we do so to even the break, modifying the unison construction on both sides so they sound more even from note to note).

Simply there is a point I feel not at ease which is when I have to make the other notes sounding too "bad" for my desire. I will then tend to hide the offending partial/false beat, by making the note "fuzzy" for instance..

As the shape and voicing will alter the spectra it sound reasonable to try to use that to lessen the output where it hurts. (we cannot do much in fact if 2 strings dont match there will be always a defect, I doubt we can really damp only part of the tone, but if a partial can be really extracted as offending it always can be lessened)

Some comprehension of the tone and how it evolves in time is certainly a big plus there, for instance making the difference between a 3 strings and a 2 strings envelope, I dont expect a similar construction in a 2 strings unisons and one with 3 strings.

Then I believe I used to do that without thinking so precisely about, but writing, exchanging with open minded persons, and searching, trying to analyze what we do with some "rules" certainly helps to evolve and to find new solutions. It is nice to have your input there !

Thank you for the comments and suggestions.

Today tried pulling up slowing, I can hear a higher partial grow up. For 3rd and 4th octaves tuned 3rd and 4th partial. The tone is mellower.

Try bi-chord bass notes, when altering pitch slowly, higher partials grow up. Fundamental seems decay faster, the higher added color to the sustain. Before, tuned bass to deadly solid, its lifeless.

Never know unison are so interesting, and difficult.

Nice !! What is difficult is not really to listen, but to manipulate the pin/wire system.
Raise really as slowly as you are descending the string from above (then as you say you are hearing all the possibilities of the unison)

That is why I push you to have that slow motion, that is how sensations get acquired. It will help you for tone but for justness as well of course, because knowing how to listen an unison you know how to listen an octave, a 5th, any interval in the end.


The left hand after some time play its role as an automatism, That hand instruct me to the level of percussiveness without me having to think or evaluates it.

A funny exercise is to focus on the playing hand and the key, then to focus on the hammer rebound, then to focus on the higher pitched tones . Then the left hand is acting automatically doing his part of the job)

The more you will work slowly the more you will gain deep sensations on what goes on exactly. As the tuning pin makes the same motion in one direction than the other, whatever motion remains is the part you want to tune.

New video ??? with 2 strings vs 2 strings please , you tuned some very good doublets in the 3 strings unisons.

Thank you.

May be this weekend make a video of bass notes. Bass notes should have slower rhythm, listen to sustain.

Yes of course slower for bass notes but it is also good to listen to the attack of bass only, with a very short and moderate blow, so the ear stay open to the attack too.

When the bass attack have a round tone ("Oh !", not aih or ah! or eeh ! )then it is easier to tune the sustain .

Thank you for the videos ..

Than you.

My tuning skill and the voice of my piano improved a lot after my first video submission.

The range of attack with round tone seems very wide. There are a lot choice of unison in bass notes. I like the higher partial sing together with fundamental. In decay, the higher partial pop out. The 3rd and 4th octave chords sings and have colorful sustain with those bass support.

Listening to the decay, it sounds like film sound track! My dream sound.

Unison tuning experiment.

Tune the left to centre string, then right to centre string until the tone is match. Listen to higher partials, make the partials as stable as possible.

Another new attempt is use three fingers to control the hammer.

Hey Isaac!

Thanks!

I've been following this thread, and in the course of the (excessive) flowery tonal verbiage, you gave an incredibly concise description to Weiyan of using the key playing hand as, at least, an equal partner in moving the string tiny increments for really fine adjustments. This really hit home for me, and I've taken off with it!

Other techs have, I think tried to describe this, rapid fire m or mf(at most)keystroke, but either my brain just figured out what they were trying to say, or the clarity of the "playing hand adjusting the pitch" (without banging!) was just clearly communicated.

When I say rapid fire, I mean musically, and I stress "musically" both in sound and use of the striking hand and arm, as a unit, kind of stroking, not hitting, the key maybe 2 or more times/ second (more in the treble) m . This, as you are applying force just below the "turning threshold" with the lever hand.

Also same as above but sometimes with a gentle impact style on the lever, depending on how the pin is behaving.

Thanks again...quantum leap for me..

Jim Ialeggio

You know what Jim ? I'm happy (as Droopy !)

Thank you for your witnessing. Yes the left hand provides energy, hence its importance.

I've find a video of a beginning student (not a student of mine ) who is doing good on a simple exercise (he could play a little more but he is not bad and the instructions are simple)

lower (or unstress the system)
Play the note with rhythm
Raise, set ,
confirm bloom
Test blow.
last check

do the other doublet ...
Not as fine as fine tuning indeed but this is a very good beginning

[video:youtube]gaVZKmerdO4[/video]

Jim basically the instructions, are
add torque slowly while playing rhythmically

Wait for the pin to crack (generally it does)
Tune the note so it speaks (bloom)
reverse torque, use a tad more so the wire is holding the pin.

Check by gently pushing up down (grand piano) so you can ascertain the system is stressed as you wish.

I notice it is often easier to tune if one focus on the pin more than on the tone !

The jerking torque is necessary when the pin is really tight, but I've been surprised how much control one can have with a gentle slow pull and enough energy from the left hand.
The jerking is more or less to free the pin so next tuning will be easier... A slowly well set pin on a good piano is almost impossible to move any direction, so better do that "definitively" so not much changes on a second pass.

Best regards

Hi Jim,

Thank you.

Hi Jim,

I wanted to add something :

on pianos with slow rendering you can tune as you describe, waiting for the wire to raise to the wanted pitch while keeping the pin in that tense position.
To correct a few cts or tenths of cents that is the same thing, in fact when doing so I consider I am not changing the initial setting of the pin (its torque position) only moving it as a whole.

But if I have to raise more I am obliged to unlock the pin setting more , so there it is really a necessity to have the string raised above the wanted pitch and to reinstall the torque of the pin. raising the string only at the exact pitch if too much move is necessary will not suffice and the string will lessen a bit.


But, generally speaking we are really "tuning" when we are under the wanted pitch, raising, and "working the pin" when we come from above only the pin is of some interest.
If the string have to be lowered during that last motion, that is the left hand job, with harder strokes. The pin will not move the string there.

So when raising I focus on the string, and when torquing back I focus on the pin.

In the high treble a pin which is too much torqued will raise the tone a semi tone high , in time, so the torque level and its equilibrium with the string tension is really something that should be evened and controlled. I like the idea to "tune the pin" !

What does "not changing the initial setting of the pin, only moving it as a whole mean? the words seem contradictory


I'm finding, again with the rapid fire left hand musical keystroke technique, when a large pitch movement is required (1-2 cents from the flat side), in bringing the pitch sharp of the target by moving the pin foot, the string pitch will overshoot the target. Then settling it back down with the rapid fire musical keystrokes and ccw lever moving torque, I find that after setting, some of the strings will creep just a tad sharp, and need a second or 3rd pass to correct.

I have been finding, though, with a reasonably rendering string and compliant block, that when the pitch is coming from below, 1c or less to target, with Clockwise torque on the lever, and keystrokes moving the pitch, this brings the string right up to pitch where it stays nicely...no overshoot.

Does this make sense to you?

Jim Ialeggio

Yes , certainly on ehave to evaluate how much torque back is possible befor having the note raising. 1 to 2 cts is still not so large.

What I mean with "not changing the position" is that I have my pin torqued, hold by the wire. Then I have to raise a hair the string.

I consider the pin as being in its torqued orientation, so when I untorque it because it is an obligation, I keep the wire well tense, and I just move the pin of the wanted value, then back to the same "original torqued position" (even if indeed the foot have moved a degree or less (?)

Just a mental picture, I have my optimal torque, I move the whole system then back to the same optimal torque...

Indeed you can avoid raising above pitch in that case I suppose it is what you describe.

If the pin in not in its optimal position from the start (in its bed and its stressed position) you have to raise more
When we begin to stress the pin we have a tendency to overtorque. The control is to be able to raise the tone a hair while gently pushing (or pulling) on the hammer , AND be able to lower it when pushing the other direction (in the elasticity of the pin and the pinblock, some are more than others) But it may be more easy to raise than to lower (2/3 1/3 is perfect)if you cannot lower the pin will raise the wire.


for the fine tuning, the different tone (but also the different sensation under the finger of the pianist) can be obtained by changing the synchronization of the attack i.e tuning in the rebound of the hammer, or tuning the attack in the full contact of the key at its bottom, or even a tad later. Just a synchronization question it will yet open the tone more or less without need to listen to the top of the specrta. (while the coupling in that region varies then) it can be refined after, stating for that jump of energy and making it more large if wanted.

The force and speed of the left hand varies depending of the rendering, the tone, the place in the scale.
It is mostly a mean to keep the wire segment free and when you have torqued the pin up, the whole system is more rigid you can feel better what you are doing and trust the wire moves.

Today's Unison Tuning


Thank you!
Weiyan

I posted to another thread in mistake. Supply had supplied an nice suggestion. I copy and paste here.

Hi Weiyan
In my opinion, you should take more time to exactely feel the moment, when the pin breaks free from his foot. Like in a slow motion picture you could analyze, what the pin wants. With your Fujan lever you can have a good respond from the pin. That lillte "tick" in your hand, when the pin starts to move after a torque phase.
Maybe you can move your hammer till you think there is no more torque possible in the pin before breaking it free, than moving patiently a litte bit more to bring the pin in the desired position.
For me it works best, when I listen to the CHANGES of the tone, when I come from the flat side of the pitch and then listen to this kind of "balloon" that happens shortly after the correct pitch hight. My question is, how big must this "balloon" be, to afterward be able to set the pin with ease. The pin should not break free again, when setting it back.
Sometimes I go flat first, but not too much, a beat or so per second, the pull up, but very careful, not just pulling up somewhere over the target, but for the right size of this "balloon". When the tone is much more out of tune after pulling up than it was before, then you probably went too far behind your target.
Have a loupe in your hand and take the time to feel, what the pin wants.

Regards Toni